Should POE's Final release have been called "Early Access?"

Gromnir · May 28, 2015

voted. don't care.

*shrug*

however, we do applaud the genesis poster. he posted the same post multiple times today and got almost no reaction. however, perhaps recognizing the predictability o' internet behaviour, the genesis poster made the spam post a poll and actual got a response. good on you.

recommendation: attach your grievance to a list or review from a recognizable gaming site. don't even need be legit. suggest that _______________ or ______________ claimed that PoE were one of the 10 most disappointing games o' 2015 thus far and you would get a much greater response. just a thought.

HA! Good Fun!

ps as an aside, Gromnir were one o' the few folks that were predicting that it would require more than a few months post release before the game were stable and balanced. the only surprise we has received is the build number: 1.06. honestly, we assumed we would be at 1.03 or 1.04 after 2 months. obsidian, for good or ill, is being highly active and reactive in their attempts to fix and balance.

Tigranes · May 28, 2015

"This poll is solely related to POE, please do not make comparisons to "other" buggy released games to justify the label "Finished product." Simply weigh up the state of completion of POE on its release and consider the amount of changes and fixes brought into the game based on both community feedback and developer input. Also consider whether the game is "Playable but not complete." and if it is subject to "Further development" or not."

If you already think you're right, why bother asking other people?

Its a poll, that's what a poll is for, right?

You're trying to prevent people from having reasonably possible interpretations of the problem, and pigeonholing them into your specific interpretation. It's a poll that any respectable pollster would throw out. Why should I sign up to your personal definition of 'finished product' or 'early access'? I refuse to vote in your poll, because you only seem to want input from people who already share all of your premises, and not to debate those premises themselves.

Baladas · May 28, 2015

however, we do applaud the genesis poster. he posted the same post multiple times today and got almost no reaction. however, perhaps recognizing the predictability o' internet behaviour, the genesis poster made the spam post a poll and actual got a response. good on you.

The devs gave me a private message asking me to make a thread away from the bug thread, so I did.

They seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to have released the game in the state that it is in.

I disagree, for some reason that I cannot fathom, most people don't.

I disagree that any product should be release on the public for them to spend their money on without sufficient testing first. We are so willing to accept the unfinished state of a game at release. Thus more and more companies are getting away with releasing their games unfinished and using their customer base as beta..... erm i mean "community" testers.

But as the poll seems to show, we don't mind being beta, erm..... I mean bug testers for the game developers who get paid for their jobs.

Playing games is not about playing them anymore it seems, its about finding bugs and reporting them as we play.....

Hmmm.... where are our salaries?

barakav · May 28, 2015

This game didn't have any unusual number of bugs at release and was definitely OK after a short while ,after they fixed the double click issue. Some players always have more problems than others and they are bitching about it at lunch but I don't think it was anything special.

NWN 2 was unfinished ,this game was OK...

Edited May 28, 2015 by barakav

Nakia · May 28, 2015

I started playing the game on Steam as soon as it was available. I had no major problems with it and only a few minor ones. I was very happy with the game. The game was finished as far as I was concerned although it didn't surprise me that there were patches and some re-balancing. I was also aware due to the backer bonus that an expansion was in the works.

I think Early Access would have been a mistake. Prolonging the development of the game would have been unfair to those who pre-purchased it and only have hurt sales. As a backer I did encourage them to take their time. The game is quite playable and alot of fun just as it is. Each play I find something new or different than in a previous play. I am happy.

Duchess of Kvetch · May 28, 2015

If devs sat around waiting for every single bug to be squashed, games would never get released.

At some point, because they are still running a -business- with other people besides the dev team invested in the product, a final release date has to be set, usually weeks in advance. The goal is generally not to release with 0 bugs and 100% tested, since that is a near impossible state given all the diff hardware configs, but to minimize/eliminate the MAJORITY of game breaking bugs by release... then work on what they can as a First Priority based on severity.

"Edge cases" - folks with serious bugs that are difficult to reproduce, or happen only for certain hardware/software configs - often get bumped down in priority. it sucks, but it is a necessary evil.

I haven't seen any obvious malfeasance or incompetence on the part of Obsidian. Yes, I am in the industry myself (at least a dev, if not i gaming) so I may be a bit of an apologist, but I also know how complicated these things are - and the risks involved when you are being pressured on all sides to stick to a set-in-stone release date. Assuming these guys aren't working their respective arses off... is just being cruel. I don't know too many truly lazy devs. We're usually all rather exhausted and riding on adrenaline and Ritalin during release week. >_>

You hope for the best, expect the worst, and pray there aren't too many armchair complainers and haters sitting around waiting to throw you to the wolves.

Falkon Swiftblade · May 28, 2015

This game was definitely in much better shape than Skyrim at launch which won game of the year, and I can't fathom how in it's original state. Pillars was not quite ready, but definitely much better than it was in the beta thanks to the tireless efforts the backer beta folks put in. I haven't played it much in version 1.05 or whatever it is now, but in the previous versions I only had a few bugs that were a pain in the butt, but I also hadn't finished the 2nd act. Maybe if I had progressed further I would have felt like you OP.

MunoValente · May 28, 2015

If this game was only early access quality basically ever single game in the genre is. Release and fix has been the standard for years now with complex RPGs, nobody should be remotely surprised at this point and relative to other similar games I found this one quite polished at release, was able to complete the game at release with no problems and I've never had a quest bug out and I've never had the game crash completely. The idea that is was anywhere near unplayable seems way off base to me. If this game was early access quality, what was New Vegas or Skyrim?

Bryy · May 28, 2015

"This poll is solely related to POE, please do not make comparisons to "other" buggy released games to justify the label "Finished product." Simply weigh up the state of completion of POE on its release and consider the amount of changes and fixes brought into the game based on both community feedback and developer input. Also consider whether the game is "Playable but not complete." and if it is subject to "Further development" or not."

If you already think you're right, why bother asking other people?

Its a poll, that's what a poll is for, right?

How does making a poll negate the point of a discussion thread?

I disagree, for some reason that I cannot fathom, most people don't.

Playing games is not about playing them anymore it seems, its about finding bugs and reporting them as we play.....

Hmmm.... where are our salaries?

Oh, okay, so you're not actually looking for discussion, you just want to moan and complain.

Gromnir · May 28, 2015

well, this board is the appropriate venue for complaining about poe. the thing is, the general complaints is not gonna get much o' a response.

U Sux!

*shrug*

two months after release, there is more than a couple game killing bugs that continue to prevent folks from finishing the game. is more than a few other less serious bugs that is proving to be roach-like in their capacity to avoid eradication. there is justification for folks to complain about the stability o' poe, but am not certain what the genesis poster hopes to achieve. if the goal is simple to vent spleen, then this is the correct place to do so. unfortunately, if actual change or solutions is sought, the post that is the equivalent o' an inarticulate grunt o' displeasure, while perhaps cathartic, is doomed to fail at bringing about such change.

HA! Good Fun!

Gorbag · May 28, 2015

Definitely not.
Nothing about the release build of PoE says unfinished. There are some bugs, yes, but nothing I could attribute to an unfinished product. FWIW PoE had as much bugs on release as the IE games. Technical support for the game has been great so far, patches are rolling out steadily, so I don't really see what the problem is.

Zwiebelchen · May 28, 2015

Give them a break, seriously. 1.04, fixing the most game-breaking bugs was released only 1 week after the game went gold.

I've seen much much worse than this, even from AAA titles.

I think this game should have been "earl grey access", as some people here really need to relax to a cup of tea.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

FlintlockJazz · May 28, 2015

I say no, the game was fine for a release in this day and age. Hell, I believe Baldur's Gate had about the same number of bugs too at release, and balancing issues that were never resolved even whereas Obsidian are constantly trying to fix balancing issues at least.

Too many games release as Early Access these days, it seems to just be another word for "We haven't finished this game yet and it's still in Alpha and in fact may never be finished but we still want your money!" The amount of games that are in early access on Steam and the number of them that seem to have been ditched by their developers is disgusting. This was not an Alpha at release so no it was not deserving of being an Early Access.

Edited May 28, 2015 by FlintlockJazz

Baladas · May 28, 2015

"This poll is solely related to POE, please do not make comparisons to "other" buggy released games to justify the label "Finished product." Simply weigh up the state of completion of POE on its release and consider the amount of changes and fixes brought into the game based on both community feedback and developer input. Also consider whether the game is "Playable but not complete." and if it is subject to "Further development" or not."

If you already think you're right, why bother asking other people?

Its a poll, that's what a poll is for, right?

How does making a poll negate the point of a discussion thread?

I disagree, for some reason that I cannot fathom, most people don't.

Playing games is not about playing them anymore it seems, its about finding bugs and reporting them as we play.....

Hmmm.... where are our salaries?

Oh, okay, so you're not actually looking for discussion, you just want to moan and complain.

Nope, not moan and complain.

Its called expressing a truth, oh and sense of humor... Heard of that? OK so it is dry humor so it is not everyone's cup of tea I know...

I do find it interesting though, that you decided to make a personal attack towards me. I find it even more interesing that people like the fact that you made a personal attack....

The game industry, as it stands, uses customers as beta testers after getting their money.

Sometimes they don't even patch the games fully and drop support leaving the "community" to fix their game for them.

I know Obsidian have committed to supporting this game after release and that is applaudable.

I know they have worked hard to patch the game so and that is also applaudable.

It does not mean that I have to agree with the current business modal.

If games were to:

a) Stay longer in production. And to avoid "when is the game coming out!" demands don't announce it until close to its completion.

b) Provide the full game for extended beta testing to catch at least the major bugs before releasing an incomplete game.

c) Provide Early Access. Yes this has pros and cons, as mentioned before. Just because releasing unfinished game is a con of Early access, it does not justify releasing an unfinished game marketed as a finished one for the sake of avoiding Early Access.

It would be a better business model in my opinion.

I simply don't believe in releasing buggy games for the consumer to get involved in fixing and POE is admitted to have had 1000's of bugs at release.

For me, I cannot play it in its current state as of patch 1.05 (1.06 pending) due to the combat mechanics not working correctly and some still reported bugs in the main plot line. I also do not want to play a game where enemy abilities bug party member abilities permanently.

I do not want to be in a fight where enemy AOE heals my party members in a game that is heavily filled with combat that has enemy AOE effects. Or a game where the enemy may bug your party members abilities, thus breaking the combat again.

Other bugs such as missing endurance, faulty Paladin auras, various stacking abilities, sound glitches, side quests broken, and so on, are a minor annoyance and I can deal with. But not broken combat mechanics in a game full of combat.

It is great they are patching, and patching fast, but as a customer I have still paid for a product that I personally am unable to use after owning it for 2 months.

I know I am not the only person who is not playing the game in its current state due to bugs. I have read many other posts over the net with people expressing the same thing.

That is why I spend my time collecting a bug thread for the community:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79258-common-recurring-bug-list-patch-105/

Edited May 28, 2015 by Baladas

Ohioastro · May 28, 2015

I think that the fixation on "bugs" is actively harmful and absurd. I was able to play the game through at release without issue. If they wasted all of their time chasing down bugs they'd have a very conservative design and they would not have been able to spend as much time designing *a good game*; there is not infinite time to burn ensuring that every obscure combination of actions is stable.

If you have zero tolerance for any glitches, no matter how minor, wait a year after release. And let the normal people, who do not share your obsessions, enjoy normal games at release.

I *played* this game. I did not feel in any way that my experience was compromised by software issues. And calling every trivial problem a "bug" also feeds into useless equivalencies; there are games that simply crash and don't work in major ways, which is different from having a 5% bonus that isn't properly applied.

Nakia · May 28, 2015

A bug is when a program does not work the way the programmer intended. Not everything reported is a bug. Often it is a design feature that the player does not like. Improper balancing may or may NOT be a bug.

We should also remember that in a business time is money. Employees like to be paid.

Players have different opinions and have a right to express those opinions in a polite manner but posting an opinion gives others the right to disagree.

I did not and do not find any thing that breaks the game and makes it unplayable. I have had no CTDs at all. Even when I participated in the Backer Beta I had no CTDs although there were some real bugs which where fixed before release.

Some one may disagree with what I have just posted and that is his or her right.

abaris · May 28, 2015

A bug is when a program does not work the way the programmer intended. Not everything reported is a bug. Often it is a design feature that the player does not like. Improper balancing may or may NOT be a bug.

But let's be fair to both sides here. The game had and still has it's share of real bugs. And that is to be expected, since if we strip a video game from all it's artistic woo surrounding it, it's a complexe piece of software designed to run on a multitude of differrent system configuration. It can't be expected that they tested it on every possible hardare configuration out there.

On the positive, they're really eager and quick to adress and iron out the flaws. And that's an attitude seldomly found in todays business world. I'm more than willing to go with that.

Nakia · May 28, 2015

I agree with abaris to a great extent but not completely. Conflicts can and do arise but those are not bugs. The game program works as intended by the programmer except when it comes in conflict with another program. These can be at times very weird. I know a moderator has asked not to refer to other games but I would like to give this example of a very weird conflict I had.

I had a game I had played with problems for some time. One day I started it up and it crashed, would not play. After some search I found in the game documentary the reason. It seems the game conflicted for some unknown reason with a printer driver. I had purchased that printer and installed the driver and the only way I could play the game was by disabling the printer driver. Fortunately for me that conflict was known and rec ordered. It was not a bug in the game or in the driver but a conflict.

Those of us that play with modded games know this problem well and can report numerous examples. Sometimes the game or mod can be fixed and sometimes it can't.

Because we are dealing with complex machinery and complex programming we can expect problems and I consider it unfair to simply bash a game because I have problems with it.

It is also possible for there to be a bug that does not affect all individuals. IE: I was not affected by the double click to equip bug because I do not double click to equip, I drag and drop.

As arabis says it is impossible for a developer to test every configuration possible to find conflicts or bugs and so it is up to the player to report problems specifically and with their machines stats in a courteous manner.

Combat in particular seems to be the biggest problem partly because of individual likes and dislikes, partly because of complexity.

It is my opinion that anyone seeking the perfect game is going to be disappointed.

Tigranes · May 28, 2015

I agree with abaris to a great extent but not completely. Conflicts can and do arise but those are not bugs. The game program works as intended by the programmer except when it comes in conflict with another program. These can be at times very weird. I know a moderator has asked not to refer to other games but I would like to give this example of a very weird conflict I had.

Just for clarification: we'd never ask anybody to not talk about another game. Maybe you meant the OP in this thread?

Gromnir · May 28, 2015

is so gauche to quote self, but...

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70927-480-discussion/?p=1582604

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70927-480-discussion/?p=1582622

perhaps Gromnir is not bothered because we had reasonable expectations? the only surprise we have had regarding bugs in poe is the number o' patches we has seen since the release. is no way we woulda' anticipated a 1.06 build as of may 2015. developers have been reactive beyond our estimations.

HA! Good Fun!

Nakia · May 28, 2015

I agree with abaris to a great extent but not completely. Conflicts can and do arise but those are not bugs. The game program works as intended by the programmer except when it comes in conflict with another program. These can be at times very weird. I know a moderator has asked not to refer to other games but I would like to give this example of a very weird conflict I had.

Just for clarification: we'd never ask anybody to not talk about another game. Maybe you meant the OP in this thread?

Sorry, I could have misunderstood. I'm not perfect and am occasionally wrong. :no:

Amentep · May 28, 2015

is so gauche to quote self, but...

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70927-480-discussion/?p=1582604

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70927-480-discussion/?p=1582622

perhaps Gromnir is not bothered because we had reasonable expectations? the only surprise we have had regarding bugs in poe is the number o' patches we has seen since the release. is no way we woulda' anticipated a 1.06 build as of may 2015. developers have been reactive beyond our estimations.

HA! Good Fun!

Yeah, I'll be honest I've never met a computer game since I came back to computer gaming that didn't need patching to fix bugs. The idea that this would be the one time that it wasn't necessary didn't make a lot of sense to me.

As I mentioned earlier back in the days of physical copies, install and patch (or install and wait for the patch) was the norm.

Ink Blot · May 28, 2015

Hmm, I actually thought this was a joke when I read the title and the OP. Go figure.

Baladas · May 28, 2015

I agree with abaris to a great extent but not completely. Conflicts can and do arise but those are not bugs. The game program works as intended by the programmer except when it comes in conflict with another program. These can be at times very weird. I know a moderator has asked not to refer to other games but I would like to give this example of a very weird conflict I had.

Just for clarification: we'd never ask anybody to not talk about another game. Maybe you meant the OP in this thread?

Sorry, I could have misunderstood. I'm not perfect and am occasionally wrong.

It was me that requested that in my OP so as to state the nature of the poll and discussion being in regards to POE as its own entity in its own right.

My intention has been misunderstood and misrepresented by a particular moderator who interpreted it in his own way through his own understanding.

Other comparisons will be made in the discussion, that is obvious, my request was to focus on POE rather than make the usual comparisons, which can become justifications for it being "the norm to release a buggy game." Many games released are relatively bug free at launch, as in they do not have 1000's of bugs, these are the games I consider as "Finished titles"

See these articles for a further understanding of my viewpoint:

Quote:

"Players won't continue to put up with paying to be game testers, being asked by publishers to help track down issues and load and reload patches for titles they paid to play. But flip that idea, and I'm sure plenty of gamers will beg to get a first look at a game for free, in exchange for their diligent testing and reporting."

From here:

http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/24/7277363/broken-video-games-are-the-new-norm-what-developers-need-to-do-to-fix

Should POE's Final release have been called "Early Access?"

Should the POE that was released have been more appropriately called and Early Access Game, rather than marketed as a finished product? 209 members have voted

1. Should the POE that was released have been more appropriately called and Early Access Game, rather than marketed as a finished product?

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Should the POE that was released have been more appropriately called and Early Access Game, rather than marketed as a finished product?
209 members have voted