Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
TrueNeutral

Journalism and Bias in the Gaming Industry

Recommended Posts

 

 

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it had not built up a great sense of internal consistency in its gameworld, if it had had the usual boring AD&D setting, or did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic. Then again we can't have something unique, distinct and rare can we? We've got to turn everything into a dull paint by numbers politically correct sermon.

 

But its really a fantasy realm so why not just include minorities? It can still be very Slavic but I don't see the big deal?

 

 

One, it is a fantasy realm built upon a series of novels that prioritise internal consistency, so one must have a reason for minorities to be present not just token representations clumsily inserted for the sake of racists.

 

Two, Minorities are represented: There are green Dryads, the problems with the Elder races which is a central theme of the novels, the heritage of the Vran lizardmen buried throughout, the post conjunction creatures, Geralt the protagonist is himself a mutant that is technically a new species, Ciri is a genetic timebomb crafted by fascist inter dimensional elves etcetera.

 

 

You have raised some good points, if you did allow these changes then that would be license for people to demand changes to many other mediums. It would be madness....it would be like someone demanding that the Lord of the Rings suddenly gets an openly gay token character

 

Its just a pity that this intentional design is now getting criticized as "  lacking in progressive spirit " 


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Q3v8GOR.jpg

  • Like 7

This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So instead of saying something useful or interesting, you opted for accusing people of ad hominem arguments through an ad hominem comic?

 

It's five in the afternoon and it's still early for this ****.


"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." -Marcus Aurelius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So instead of saying something useful or interesting, you opted for accusing people of ad hominem arguments through an ad hominem comic?

 

It's five in the afternoon and it's still early for this ****.

Hopefully you survive the trauma. Was amusing and is a common dodge by those people on Twitter (can't expect much from that kind though :p)


Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That Polygon article has a point - insofar as it talks about the a**hole-y reactions to Rust.

 

For the rest, The Witcher 3 is actually a very strange target. Race relations, minorities, prejudice and power play a huge part in the Witcher world, they're central to several main plots and permeate the whole setting.

It's just that it isn't white vs black. It's humans vs elves and dwarves.

It's not that the game doesn't care, or doesn't include minorities. It doesn't include a specific brand of minorities.

As the article mentions, Witcher 1 had an important character with mildly Middle-Eastern connotations, Azar Javed. (Incidentally, he was the baddie. I hereby reserve all rights to the respective outrage.) It didn't include (the fantasy equivalent of) Asian characters, or African ones, or Inuit.

Accordingly, Witcher 3 does have minorities. It's not minorities by skin colour, that's all.

And from a (Central/Eastern) European view point, that's actually quite reasonable. "Racism" (how it's used in this discussion) is not solely an issue of skin colour. Discrimination happens for all kinds of reasons, and skin colour is only one of those. By placing the issue in the fantasy realm, The Witcher avoids representing only one aspect of the problem, and puts it on a more general level.

 

Oh, and the part quoted above does move into dangerous territory. It may be only part of the article, but it's a central one, because most of its Witcher discussion comes from that.

Edited by Varana

Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Like 1

"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So instead of saying something useful or interesting, you opted for accusing people of ad hominem arguments through an ad hominem comic?

 

It's five in the afternoon and it's still early for this ****.

Hopefully you survive the trauma. Was amusing and is a common dodge by those people on Twitter (can't expect much from that kind though :p)

 

 

I don't think I'll ever cease being amazed by what people find funny...


"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." -Marcus Aurelius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Like 3

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think I'll ever cease being amazed by what people find funny...

Well, amusing doesn't mean guffaw worthy, mind you. But what was off-colour about the jab, there ?


Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I don't think I'll ever cease being amazed by what people find funny...

Well, amusing doesn't mean guffaw worthy, mind you. But what was off-colour about the jab, there ?

 

 

Nothing especially wrong with it, it's just a really lazy and dumb joke. A person fulfils a stereotype? Yeah, you're hilarious.

Edited by evensong

"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." -Marcus Aurelius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, why is he drinking a thimble-sized coke?


"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." -Marcus Aurelius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meant to be one of those 7.5 fl oz cans, perhaps. Good gimmick there, by the way.


Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

saying that white-centric game needs PoCs, but a PoC-centric game doesn't is racist.

 

Not if you go by the definition of racism as "prejudice plus power".

rac·ism

 

ˈrāˌsizəm/

 

noun

 

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

 

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

 

 

Pretty sure thats the definition most people use. Only people who want to dismiss racism against white people make up the prejudice plus power definition.


The area between the balls and the butt is a hotbed of terrorist activity.

Devastatorsig.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like I said before they decided to change the already perfectly fine definition of racism because of the many times their hypocrisy has been pointed out to them. Now they act like their newly baked definition is like the holy word and don't you even dare use the original.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- 8 paragraphs about why, in a wider cultural context, saying "it's completely like a game based on Indian mythology not containing whites" is simply wrong

- 2 paragraphs about how the "historical accuracy" argument doesn't hold water in a game of wraiths and magic. Which is where people tend to miss the point and yell "bu-bu-but INTERNAL CONSISTENCY" like they're incapable of even considering that internal consistency means consistency within the framework of the rules the author set up, and there's nothing preventing said author from setting up a set of rules where the presence of non-white people is acceptable. (Note: this is not an argument specifically against The Witcher, and nothing in the text implies such.) 2 more paragraphs touch on the subject a bit later.

I did want to point out something that I see as a logical issue with these two arguments, and I'm curious as to what other think.

 

Making the argument that "African descendants in a game based on Slavic mythology" /= "European descendants in a game based on Indian mythology" is fair, but to me the argument should be "African descendants in a game based on Slavic mythology" vs "African descendants in a game based on Indian mythology" - if the idea is that Africans need better representation in games, in both cases they'd be minorities underrepresented by the "mainstream" culture of both locals that the stories are based on.

 

To use an example, do people complain that Dynasty Warriors doesn't allow you to create an African player in their create a character soldiers? You could counter that its based in history, but just like the Witcher's relationship with Polish history, Dynasty Warriors is a fictional world - one with magic.

 

'But there are no monsters, and the original stories are based on history," could be an argument (although the Witcher is based - supposed fairly faithfully - on a book series itself), so what about Warrior's Orochi then?  Magic, other worlds, demons and warriors pulled from around the world.  But nobody from Africa?  Are there complaints about this?  What about Jade Empire? Final Fantasy?

 

I ask, because from my perspective this is where the feeling that these complaints are essentially throwing Polish/Slavic culture/myth in with Anglo-Saxon/Celtic/Norse myth as being something that is "from white people" and therefore not as important as something from some non-European locale.  Unless, of course, there are cries for Warrior's Orochi, Final Fantasy or other Asian based series to add African based characters that I haven't seen - which is possible - it seems strange to bring the charges against this game as opposed to other games that come from fairly homogenous societies (as I understand Poland and Japan both are) which don't allow for characters from world cultures outside their own. 

 

I could clearly be missing something; and its possible there are debates I've missed or this is the start of something that seems rather arbitrary because it is just beginning, but from the outside (having never played a Witcher game) I admit the article left me rather confused as to why it, ultimately to me at least, seemed rather arbitrary in its choice of games to criticise (ie something mainstream popular and "white" rather than niche and Japanese) ore even why there was a need to make an example of any particular game at all.

Edited by Amentep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, see my previous point about "a rose by any other name" - make it the exclusive definition of racism or consider it systemic or subconscious forms of racism, either way, the systemic discrimination doesn't disappear! I actually kind of agree that it's silly pretending you can't be racist against white people: a lone white kid at a school being bullied for being white is still subjected to racism. But it's incredibly important to also recognise that the racism he's experiencing is, to a large degree, a consequence of a larger systemic kind of racism, where poc and white people are, to a very large degree, geographically and socioeconomically segregated as a result of many, many variables - historical, biological, sociological and so on.

 

Just like defining racism as prejudice+power is convenient for those who want to pretend you can't be racist against white people, defining racism exclusively as the Klansman variety is highly convenient for those who use it to feel not-racist, even though it's pretty much indisputable that we all carry some degree of racial prejudice with us* - we're hard-wired to categorise ****, it helped us survive for thousands of years, and pretending we've somehow evolved past it despite clear socioeconomic indicators that we haven't is pretty silly. We can recognise our nature and work against it, or pretend it doesn't exist because it's convenient and benefits us. If we want to pretend that we're interested in creating a level playing field with equal opportunities for all, however, where we judge people by their character, we can't ignore this problem.


"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." -Marcus Aurelius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing about SJWs like  Sarkessian, and McIntrash is that theya re racist and think so little of mkinorities. they view blacks as weak little babies who need to be coddled. I view blacks as human beings who can be treated as adults.

 

That article is racist. Against blacks and other minorities.

\

\EVIL. EVIL TO THE CORE.


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never understood the argument that fantastic elements in a game automatically invalidate any sense of historical accuracy, one can have an internally consistent setting that lives cheek by jowl with fantastic elements. So long as these fantastic elements are accounted for and reacted to reasonably they do not invalidate the setting whatsoever.

 

For instance in the Witcher the the protagonist is a part of an order that arose to deal with post Conjunction monsters, crafted by mages to make perfect, unfeeling guardians for humanity in emulation of the Golem myth. Thus Witchers are a known entity, grudgingly accepted when needed but otherwise shunned. Sorcerers and their effect on society is dealt with throughout the saga, and they have a recognised place and a purpose in the world. The interactions with fantastical races and species is another central theme of the mythos, and indeed is crucial to the second protagonist of the series.

 

This in no way invalidates the largely agrarian society, the feudal order, the cutthroat politics that are engaged in throughout or any of the other internally consistent content. Indeed in the war ravaged no mans land of Velen one can see monsters emerging from their hiding places, feeding on corpses, growing strong and fat in the absence of civilisation and society. Yet take a boat ride across the Pontar to Redania and one finds a largely settled land, policed, civilised in large measure and absent of the worst depredations except when one travels far from the beaten path. Logical and internally consistent, and not yelled about at all. 

 

One merely has to account for fantastical elements in a setting, and make realistic consequences and conflicts from their interaction with the mundane rather than repeating, "But there's magic so nothing has to make sense, Dragons shouldn't fly!" Yes Dragons should not fly, that's one of the reasons why they're a fantastical creation, they also shouldn't be able to breathe fire, or mesmerise with their gaze.

 

This argument is really not thought out fully.

Edited by Nonek

Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

saying that white-centric game needs PoCs, but a PoC-centric game doesn't is racist.

Not if you go by the definition of racism as "prejudice plus power".

 

Pretty sure thats the definition most people use. Only people who want to dismiss racism against white people make up the prejudice plus power definition.

 

 

Now thats an interesting perspective.."  white people can't be the victims of racism " 

 

Some of my fellow supporters of SJ have argued that point but I think its misplaced as it immediately annoys people who have been the victim of black racism

 

But a better way of saying it is " white people aren't typically the victims of the institutionalized and historic racism that black people are sometimes subjected to "  


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you are misusing the word " racism " ...what is your definition of racism in this case?

 

 

 

 

I know I will fail to convince you but its not racist if its intention is to be inclusive and we don't need other cultures to prompt the white\European race...we already dominate on most levels

 

 

 

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it had not built up a great sense of internal consistency in its gameworld, if it had had the usual boring AD&D setting, or did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic. Then again we can't have something unique, distinct and rare can we? We've got to turn everything into a dull paint by numbers politically correct sermon.

But its really a fantasy realm so why not just include minorities? It can still be very Slavic but I don't see the big deal?

The big deal is

 

1) Is that it is quite racist to include minorities for the sake of them being minorities.

2) The double standard. No one is forcing the Japanese/Asian market to include whites or blacks in their games.

 

 

Racism is still racism despite with "good" intensions, nice try though. Who's "we?" not needing to prompt european race? Who are you talking about? Why is it morally right for any artist pursue this racial/cultural propaganda and why should companies profit from it?

 

 

Why do you feel Japanese games have to now feature European people?

Answer my questions first.

Okay, "we" is the general European\White race

I meant to say " we have no need to promote the White race "

Hahahaha, i'm done.

Do you mind sharing why you are done ?

Because trying to tell whites that their race and culture should not be promoted is quite evil, is it not? Like there is a certain layer of what the human expression of oneself can go before someone else puts an arbitrary stop-sign telling them that their culture just have had enough.

 

I thought that we all worked from on the dream MLK had as a base. Maybe he was wrong after all...

Dude...seriously?

 

I would like others to comment ..." do you guys think the European\White race needs to be promoted in our modern age "

Yes, because a lot of it seems to be getting forgotten. The old folk tales the old culture etc and it is being overshadowed by shows like jersey shore or hells kitchen. Besides how much do you know about celtic or slav or norse or balkan or various germanic cultures really? You come from a country tha was a mere colony and try to school others on how they should perceive and promote their own millenia long cultural roots?

 

Mind your own cultural background and do not school others on representation of their culture you "colonist"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you are misusing the word " racism " ...what is your definition of racism in this case?

 

 

 

 

I know I will fail to convince you but its not racist if its intention is to be inclusive and we don't need other cultures to prompt the white\European race...we already dominate on most levels

 

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it had not built up a great sense of internal consistency in its gameworld, if it had had the usual boring AD&D setting, or did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic. Then again we can't have something unique, distinct and rare can we? We've got to turn everything into a dull paint by numbers politically correct sermon.

But its really a fantasy realm so why not just include minorities? It can still be very Slavic but I don't see the big deal?

The big deal is

 

1) Is that it is quite racist to include minorities for the sake of them being minorities.

2) The double standard. No one is forcing the Japanese/Asian market to include whites or blacks in their games.

 

 

Racism is still racism despite with "good" intensions, nice try though. Who's "we?" not needing to prompt european race? Who are you talking about? Why is it morally right for any artist pursue this racial/cultural propaganda and why should companies profit from it?

 

 

Why do you feel Japanese games have to now feature European people?

Answer my questions first.

Okay, "we" is the general European\White race

I meant to say " we have no need to promote the White race "

Hahahaha, i'm done.

Do you mind sharing why you are done ?

Because trying to tell whites that their race and culture should not be promoted is quite evil, is it not? Like there is a certain layer of what the human expression of oneself can go before someone else puts an arbitrary stop-sign telling them that their culture just have had enough.

 

I thought that we all worked from on the dream MLK had as a base. Maybe he was wrong after all...

Dude...seriously?

 

I would like others to comment ..." do you guys think the European\White race needs to be promoted in our modern age "

Yes, because a lot of it seems to be getting forgotten. The old folk tales the old culture etc and it is being overshadowed by shows like jersey shore or hells kitchen. Besides how much do you know about celtic or slav or norse or balkan or various germanic cultures really? You come from a country tha was a mere colony and try to school others on how they should perceive and promote their own millenia long cultural roots?

 

Mind your own cultural background and do not school others on representation of their culture you "colonist"

 

No I'll continue to get involved in other peoples cultures....its a wonderful global world  :dancing:

 

Well whats an example then of a valid group of white people that have been victims to abuse and bigotry by black people ?


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

saying that white-centric game needs PoCs, but a PoC-centric game doesn't is racist.

Not if you go by the definition of racism as "prejudice plus power".

 

Pretty sure thats the definition most people use. Only people who want to dismiss racism against white people make up the prejudice plus power definition.

 

 

Now thats an interesting perspective.."  white people can't be the victims of racism " 

 

Some of my fellow supporters of SJ have argued that point but I think its misplaced as it immediately annoys people who have been the victim of black racism

 

But a better way of saying it is " white people aren't typically the victims of the institutionalized and historic racism that black people are sometimes subjected to "  

 

The question then becomes "Okay, Given the historical and social contexts of this issue, how long are we expected to give others a free pass to be racist against the white "majority" population?"

 

That's always been my biggest problem, that whenever the idea of an african man being racist it's always rebutted with "Well yeah, but we had to deal with Slavery man!" which rings hollow given the person being racist probably wasn't even a glimmer in his dad's eye when the civil rights legislations passed.

 

That said, on the subject of the Polygon article getting indignant about non-whites not being represented within the Witcher. I think a lot of people would be more willing to deal with it if it wasn't a presumably white author trying to force a change into an already established work just so he feels like he did his bit for the social justice fight. It's been declared that CDProjekt should make the change because they want to approach a wider audience. Except for the fact that I highly doubt that they would earn more customers if in the middle of killing a Nekker or Drowner, a black guy ran up declared "HELLO! I AM A BLACK DUDE IN SLAVIC EUROPE!" and ran away just for that token representation that's being requested.


Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TotalBiscuit: Doubt I'm the only one who thinks it's culturally imperialistic to see Americans lecturing Polish devs on what to do with Slavic mythology.

 

Semi-relevant link: George R.R. Martin on violence against women in game of thrones.

 

Just because you put in dragons doesn’t mean you can put in anything you want", said Martin. "If pigs could fly, then that’s your book. But that doesn’t mean you also want people walking on their hands instead of their feet. If you’re going to do [a fantasy element], it’s best to only do one of them, or a few. I wanted my books to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like, and I was also reacting to a lot of fantasy fiction.

  • Like 1

This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Do you guys buy into all this hyperbole and grandstanding ... " culturally imperialist "   :biggrin: 

 


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...