Suggestion to improve enchanting system and itemization

[Zwiebelchen]

As it is now, finding new gear in the game feels very unrewarding, due to the enchanting system and how you can upgrade your non-magical items to almost comparable power levels to unique gear you can find throughout the game.

 

I understand the reasoning behind this, given that some of the game's loot is randomized.

 

Obviously, the current advantages of unique gear over normal gear are the unique enchants that you can not apply to items. Sometimes, unique items can also have a combination of enchants that are not possible to do achieve via manual enchanting, like a combination of "precise 1" with "fine" on a weapon that isn't a precise weapon by default (like a rapier).

 

Suggestions to remove the enchanting system are off the table. It's been confirmed that it's here to stay. But that doesn't mean that there's no playground to make it better.

 

 

The two main problems:

 

There are only a small number of items in the game that have unique enchantments that actually matter in terms of general power, as usually those enchants take up precious enchantment slots that prevent the items from being further buffed via player-initiated enchanting.

Items have an enchantment limit of 12. There is no variation on this number. This means that if a unique item features 7 levels worth of enchantments, you are very limited in what you can apply on top of it. In the end, you will usually end up with an item that is slightly better than a non-unique piece of gear, but that's about it.

 

 

Also, there is no real feeling of progression due to the enchanting system. Any weapon or armor you can find right at the beginning of the game can end up being almost equally powerful as a rare non-unique item. This leads to a situation where you basicly sell any item that doesn't have a name instantly. Even if you find some "fine" or "exceptional" weapons and armors throughout the game, you will mostly sell them, as the only thing that makes them different over enchanted 1st level gear is the different model (and even that is mostly considered a bug).

 

 

A possible solution:

 

The question that arises when thinking about enchanting and itemization in this game is: is there any reason why the maximum enchantment level of items is always a static 12? Why not offer some variety in that?

Obviously, a rare unique item could allow a higher enchantment level, to apply an exceptional or superb enchantment such as a lash effect on top of the unique enchants.

There could also be a progression or deviation of "standard magical gear", which makes hunting for good raw-weapons and armors for further enchantment more meaningful.

Or an enemy drops a unique looking non-magical sword that has more enchantment slots than the gear you find in the opening dungeon.

Or the opposite: you find a great weapon in an early dungeon, that will remain strong until the first half of the game, but then gets outclassed by weapons that offer more enchantment slots as the game progresses, as it only has 7 enchantment slots and can only be upgraded to "fine" on top of the unique enchantments.

 

This creates a dynamic in which you always have some room for improvement in your gear, even if you already found an item with the unique enchant you are looking for (like the "convert graze to hit" property).

 

In addition to this, why not add more variety in enchants aswell? Currently, it's pretty much only a lash effect, a quality level and a slayer property. Why can't I, for example, add a deflection bonus or a DR penetration property? Why can't I modify the speed of weapons via enchants? Why can't I add a defense bonus against a certain status effect to an armor or modify the recovery penalty?

Shields are incredibly boring here, because they only offer the quality property to enchant.

 

I'm not saying that unique enchants like spellbind, bash, retaliation, etc. should be available for enchants; but a bigger selection of some basic stuff to do would do wonders for variety and actual choice in enchanting.

Currently, the only choice in the enchanting system is which "of slaying" property I select and which attribute I map to my armor. This is boring.

 

 

TL:DR:

 

The system and mechanics are there already. Why don't you (as in Obsidian) play with them?

Edited May 11, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[View619]

I just ignore enchanting; not sure if it was a stretch goal, but it doesn't really add anything to the game. Doing this makes found items more meaningful in my playthroughs.

[perilisk]

I feel like the approach that would work best with the lore would be to have quests reward "Memories" to the characters that participate, which could then be used to enchant items (ie, different Memories would provide different bonuses, rather than being a blank resource, and different quest resolutions would provide different Memories), via some sort of handwaved essence transfusion.

I think the item backgrounds would work better as a Watcher-power-based soul reading, rather than a standard item history. You could get a little more impressionist about things. A less literal history would also make it feasible to generate procedural "readings" for player-enchanted items by referencing the Memories used to craft it, while still having them fit the style of unique items.

[Gunnar.Maluf]

I also 

 

As it is now, finding new gear in the game feels very unrewarding, due to the enchanting system and how you can upgrade your non-magical items to almost comparable power levels to unique gear you can find throughout the game.

 

I understand the reasoning behind this, given that some of the game's loot is randomized.

 

Obviously, the current advantages of unique gear over normal gear are the unique enchants that you can not apply to items. Sometimes, unique items can also have a combination of enchants that are not possible to do achieve via manual enchanting, like a combination of "precise 1" with "fine" on a weapon that isn't a precise weapon by default (like a rapier).

 

Suggestions to remove the enchanting system are off the table. It's been confirmed that it's here to stay. But that doesn't mean that there's no playground to make it better.

 

 

The two main problems:

 

There are only a small number of items in the game that have unique enchantments that actually matter in terms of general power, as usually those enchants take up precious enchantment slots that prevent the items from being further buffed via player-initiated enchanting.

Items have an enchantment limit of 12. There is no variation on this number. This means that if a unique item features 7 levels worth of enchantments, you are very limited in what you can apply on top of it. In the end, you will usually end up with an item that is slightly better than a non-unique piece of gear, but that's about it.

 

 

Also, there is no real feeling of progression due to the enchanting system. Any weapon or armor you can find right at the beginning of the game can end up being almost equally powerful as a rare non-unique item. This leads to a situation where you basicly sell any item that doesn't have a name instantly. Even if you find some "fine" or "exceptional" weapons and armors throughout the game, you will mostly sell them, as the only thing that makes them different over enchanted 1st level gear is the different model (and even that is mostly considered a bug).

 

 

A possible solution:

 

The question that arises when thinking about enchanting and itemization in this game is: is there any reason why the maximum enchantment level of items is always a static 12? Why not offer some variety in that?

Obviously, a rare unique item could allow a higher enchantment level, to apply an exceptional or superb enchantment such as a lash effect on top of the unique enchants.

There could also be a progression or deviation of "standard magical gear", which makes hunting for good raw-weapons and armors for further enchantment more meaningful.

Or an enemy drops a unique looking non-magical sword that has more enchantment slots than the gear you find in the opening dungeon.

Or the opposite: you find a great weapon in an early dungeon, that will remain strong until the first half of the game, but then gets outclassed by weapons that offer more enchantment slots as the game progresses, as it only has 7 enchantment slots and can only be upgraded to "fine" on top of the unique enchantments.

 

This creates a dynamic in which you always have some room for improvement in your gear, even if you already found an item with the unique enchant you are looking for (like the "convert graze to hit" property).

 

In addition to this, why not add more variety in enchants aswell? Currently, it's pretty much only a lash effect, a quality level and a slayer property. Why can't I, for example, add a deflection bonus or a DR penetration property? Why can't I modify the speed of weapons via enchants? Why can't I add a defense bonus against a certain status effect to an armor or modify the recovery penalty?

Shields are incredibly boring here, because they only offer the quality property to enchant.

 

I'm not saying that unique enchants like spellbind, bash, retaliation, etc. should be available for enchants; but a bigger selection of some basic stuff to do would do wonders for variety and actual choice in enchanting.

Currently, the only choice in the enchanting system is which "of slaying" property I select and which attribute I map to my armor. This is boring.

 

 

TL:DR:

 

The system and mechanics are there already. Why don't you (as in Obsidian) play with them?

I would just get rid of the enchantment system and make the unique items better but if it's here to stay

I think the enchantments should be available only for "magical" items with already special attributes and enchanting should be more expensive.

 

So you would only spend money on items that really mattered to make them even better.

For this to work money should be more restrict in the game as well.

In the end game I had around 50k. A friend got 100k. 

Thats because I upgraded the whole Stronghold, enchanted and crafted and bought LOTS of stuff.

[Nakia]

I like being able to enchant my own weapons and armour.  I do think the enchantment system could be improved.  Why is it linked to mechanics rather than to magic.   I  like the idea of "remembering" or finding recopies rather than having them all to start with.    There is also the possibility of needing either a forge or laboratory in order to do enchantments.  

[Achilles]

"Linked to mechanics"?

[BrickleberryPi]

I ignore enchanting mostly because you can't make anything unique out of it. Want a rod with the speed modifier, a crushing lash, and can prone on crits but with reduced crit damage? Too bad. Perhaps kickstarter backers will create that sort of item in the future. The issue I have with the current system is that all the unique enchantments are reserved for specially made items from kickstarter backers and/or items with unique lore attached to it because "unique = one of a kind." Would I be more into enchanting if many if not all the modifiers are available? Yes, absolutely.

[JONNIN]

They should have put in a few recipes for each type, and rounded out shield and helm enchanting (so many neat looking hats that you won't use once you have enchanted hats..).    The system has the feel of something that was not finished.

[scrotiemcb]

Why aren't more people simply agreeing with the OP?

[EdwinP]

I agree that enchanting can be improved.

 

As the OP suggested let there be a greater variety and combinations of enchantment recipes and weapon enchantment limits.

 

I suggest:

1. As stated above, the PCs can discover recipes for new enchantments. Perhaps the recipe for an enchantment is in a book. Read the book and the enchantment recipe is available.
2. Restoring the Stronghold's laboratory AND library AND curio shop AND botanical gardens (4 improvements) provides a percentage chance to discover a randomly selected enchantment recipe every month.
3. Some enchantment recipes appear based on the Lore Stat. Higher Lore = more enchantment recipes are available
4. Link knowledge of some enchantments recipes to Spell knowledge. Know the spell and have sufficient lore then the enchantment is available. Don't know the spell and the enchantment is not available.
5. Perhaps, each level in Lore (or each level above 5) makes a new random enchantment recipe available. A party with 10 levels in lore would have access to 10 ( 5 if it was limited to each level above 5) additional enchantments. You could make a new random enchantment available for every 2 levels in lore. The game would have 50 randomly selectable enchantments. Thus each game is different. You might discover Enchantment 3 at Level 4, at Level 10 or never.
6. Quests to steal knowledge of an enchantment from a noble, a library or a wizard.

Example 1: A wizard that knows the spell "Fleet Feet" can cast an enchantment that increases the speed of a weapon. A party that does not have this spell would need to discover a book with the recipe for this enchantment.

 

Example 2: A party that has 14 levels in lore has access to 7 additional enchantments (if a new enchantment recipe is available for every 2 levels in lore).

 

Example 3: A PC with Lore Level 8 has access to 3 additional enchantments (if a new enchantment recipe is available for each level above 5)

 

Example: 4: The PC starts out knowing no secondary damage or weapon slaying enchantment recipes. This part of the enchantment screen is blank until the recipes are discovered. These recipes become available based on lore level, spell knowledge, discovering them in a book or hiring a companion that knows a recipe(s).

 

Example 5: Beneath the Hall of Revealed Mysteries there is a vault that contains a book of enchantment recipes. Elaborate traps, puzzles and guardian creatures protect the vault. Can the PCs penetrate the Hall, solve its traps and puzzles to acquire this tome and escape from the hall alive and undetected to learn the enchantments within the book?

 

Player enchanted magic items would be rarer if a Crafting skill level (New Skill) was required to enchant an item. A higher crafting skill would be required for more powerful and more complex enchantments. Unlike a level requirement; which is passive, a crafting level requirement would require the player to dedicate skill points to Crafting, instead of another skill. This idea reflects the fact that crafting is a learned skill. Whereas many PC characters can learn to perform the basic enchantments (level 1 to 4), only highly skilled crafters can execute the most powerful enchantments.

 

Example: Damaging 1 requires Crafting 1, Fine requires Crafting 4, Burning Lash requires Crafting 5, Slaying requires crafting 6, Exceptional requires crafting 8, Superb requires crafting 12. Some backgrounds (Scientist, Scholar) may provide a crafting skill bonus.

 

PCs can construct a party with a crafter or choose to rely on finding magic items. Build a party around a crafter and you will have a PC that is weak in other areas. Build a party without a PC crafter and you limit access to some enchantments. Two different play experiences. Idea: With a laboratory, library, curio shop and botanical gardens built you can hire a crafter to work at the Stronghold at a wage rate of 200cp (not the normal 10 or 20). This hireling crafter can enchant items; if you know the recipe, when you return to the Stronghold OR hiring a crafter provides a +2 crafting bonus after resting.

Edited May 11, 2015 by EdwinP

[Achilles]

Why aren't more people simply agreeing with the OP?

Because people have different opinions. For instance, some people think the OP is wrong.

[Zwiebelchen]

I feel like the approach that would work best with the lore would be to have quests reward "Memories" to the characters that participate, which could then be used to enchant items (ie, different Memories would provide different bonuses, rather than being a blank resource, and different quest resolutions would provide different Memories), via some sort of handwaved essence transfusion.

 

I think the item backgrounds would work better as a Watcher-power-based soul reading, rather than a standard item history. You could get a little more impressionist about things. A less literal history would also make it feasible to generate procedural "readings" for player-enchanted items by referencing the Memories used to craft it, while still having them fit the style of unique items.

 

This idea sounds pretty cool and probably makes for a nice game design that focuses around this idea, but there is one major flaw in it that imho disqualifies it for a cRPG: it encourages the player to clinge on their "memories", not wasting them on progression gear early.

 

Let's not forget that there is a big positive in PoE enchanting as is: it doesn't punish you for enchanting your low-level gear by wasting unique mats. Most resources are easily obtainable everywhere and not limited (except for the superb enchant). I don't think that this is a bad thing.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

I'm fine with the enchanting system. It is simple. I feel you can go 2 ways simple or complex. And anything that is in the middle will feel awkard. Go simple or basically go big.

 

 

I really thought the crafting system in Divinty Original Sin was cool. Even though their equipment adapted to player level and that concept isn't in PoE. the stuff you could make or enchant was cool. Need a helmet use a knife on a pumpkin. Instant Pumpkin Helmet. Or a hammer on a cooking pot. And a pot helmet.

 

But any changes would mean you would have to add a ton of materials to find or buy. But a complex system would be a cool DLC or for PoE 2. Crafting and Enhancing could be seperate skills. Then you should be able to craft anything or enhance anything based upon skill and materials and slots.

 

The thing the current system has going for it is that you can find stuff in the start of game and make it really good. Eder armor can go to superb plus at least 1 more enhancement. That armor is good the entire game and when the player gets better so does the armor. Same thing with Paladin shield or Hold Wall now that speed mods work.