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  Hearing a lot of talk about warbow being a viable options for ranged rogue even on PotD difficulty. Looking for a detailed build that is tested to work on those diffuclties. Thanks!!

In particular, which race is the best? (Hearth Orlan vs Wood Elf), do you need to carry backup fire arms for high DR enemies? What equipement should get early on, what kind of enchantments on weapons?

 

Much appreciate it!

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Wood Elf

 

Max Dex, Mig.

 

1.  Crippling Strike

2.  Weapon Focus:  Soldier

3.  Dirty Fighting

4.  Marksman > Penetrating Shot > Rogue specific class talents

5.  Finishing blow, use when you see the targets has 2 to 4 bubbles of health left.

6.  Marksman > Penetrating Shot > Rogue specific class talents 

 

Best race:  Wood elf has +5 accuracy and can get +5 from marksman, this helps all categories so is a dps enabler higher than hit to crit the orlan has.

 

Backup weapons:  Possibly Pollaxe, but really warbow is enough.  Firearms are out of the weapon focus, so taking the -acc is rough on the rogue.

 

Enchantments:  +Quality (fine < exceptional < superb) > Lash (fire = corrode > shock > freeze) > Slaying

 

Equipment of note:  Borresaine > Cloudpiercer

 

-Personal preference for PotD though for a ranged character is ranger.  With good micro and a group, Ranger + pet + vicious aim + stalker's + guns or crossbow > rogue, since PotD its all about the accuracy issues.  Rogue performs well enough, but having..

 

Ranger + (pet) + 2 tanks + 1 priest + 2 dps/cc > Rogue of the same setup.  Since the rogue can't be a viable offtank and ranged even with the consecrated ground during a choke or corner pile up, where as the bear can.  Practical optimization, the bear needs babysitting, but so does the rogue in PotD, and ranger brings driving flight for a semi aoe feel.

Edited by MoxyWoo
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I love how people always talk about how wonderful ranger accuracy is on POTD difficulty and forget to mention the little detail that the pet has to survive the hordes of mobs that the mode throws at you to ever see it actually apply.

 

So when a ranger acolyte starts throwing numbers at you:

 

1. Subtract 10 acc from his claims if he's smart enough to not send the pet into battle.

2. Subtract 16 acc from his claims if he's not (bonded grief).

3. If he reserves the pet for leakers, subtract driving flight because enough leakers to make driving flight work is enough to kill the pet.

4. If the pet survives and is useful, then it was a trivial encounter anyway.

Edited by Manty5
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I don't mean to make this another ranger argument, but if you think 10 less accuracy tips the damage scale in favor of rogues over rangers, you're sorely mistaken. And driving flight is the bomb, don't you dare argue it! If you don't position your pet and ranger to maximize use of the synergy and driving flight mechanics, don't blame that on the build.

 

Anyhoo, the best warbow rogue is a wood elf.

 

talents:

weapon focus (xxx)

penetrating shot

marksman

vicious fighting

 

abilities:

all of the +damage ones

deathblows

 

Just keep penetrating shot active at all times, and make sure someone from your party is applying status effects that let your rogue do sneak attacks (and x2 status effects for deathblows). You can look up the wiki for all the effects and who can apply them. Very important you keep this up, otherwise the rogue's damage will be pitiful.

 

In terms of weapon sets, you don't have much options unless you take a second weapon focus in arquebus. Or you can pick the blunderbuss/pistol weapon focus, as each is good vs. a different amount of DR. I think at (very roughly) 20 DR, the warbow starts falling behind the arquebus/pistol in damage.

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I love how people always talk about how wonderful ranger accuracy is on POTD difficulty and forget to mention the little detail that the pet has to survive the hordes of mobs that the mode throws at you to ever see it actually apply.

 

So when a ranger acolyte starts throwing numbers at you:

 

1. Subtract 10 acc from his claims if he's smart enough to not send the pet into battle.

2. Subtract 16 acc from his claims if he's not (bonded grief).

3. If he reserves the pet for leakers, subtract driving flight because enough leakers to make driving flight work is enough to kill the pet.

4. If the pet survives and is useful, then it was a trivial encounter anyway.

 

Personally, I think ranger pets do need a buff, they were roughly "halved" right before the beta ended and should've been more like a "quarter" for their debuff from what I read of the forums on how they did.

 

Really, it shows in the numbers too, they had things like +1.5 DR for example (why not make this 2 or 3?) when leveling, and the stats are pretty sad for gains in the end.  Basically, it takes a lot more work for the pet to stay alive.

 

That said, in PotD for the tougher corner gigs, a bear 'offtank' is fine enough as you add in the priest specific buffs and can pile on the meat wall, worst case, its better to have a "withdraw" animal companion versus a "withdraw" PC, as the -dps loss from AC is minimal, where as losing one of your front lines, spending resource to keep the rogue alive, etc, for the tactic is less than optimal.

Edited by MoxyWoo
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I started a ranged rogue for potd, however I found her dmg output "fine" but a bit slow. So I switched to melee rogue, and holy **** did she wreck face. I had no trouble keeping the melee rogue alive through potd, and she was by far the most important damage dealer in the group, paired with a cipher and a wizard. So if you simply want a rogue, I recommend melee.

 

Ranged is however a rather straight-forward build. Max dex & might, I had Int at 10 so I didn't have to ditch defences to the floor (you can at least attempt not to get critted). Con was around 9 I think, and very high perception to get some interrupts in every now and then. Don't bother with armor, I ran around in just clothing (enchanted) + blunting belt. You might not even need it if you're going ranged. For a melee rogue the "Shod in Faith" boots was pretty nice, maybe you should keep them handy for shades/phantoms.

 

For weapons, I found corrode to be the least resisted damage enchant, but also fire to be the most usefull (Because I thoroughly hate shades and phantoms). 

 

I found "coordinated positioning" to be not necessary, however "shadowing beyond" was a lifesaver at times. Backstab is not recommended.

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I started a ranged rogue for potd, however I found her dmg output "fine" but a bit slow. So I switched to melee rogue, and holy **** did she wreck face. I had no trouble keeping the melee rogue alive through potd, and she was by far the most important damage dealer in the group, paired with a cipher and a wizard. So if you simply want a rogue, I recommend melee.

 

Ranged is however a rather straight-forward build. Max dex & might, I had Int at 10 so I didn't have to ditch defences to the floor (you can at least attempt not to get critted). Con was around 9 I think, and very high perception to get some interrupts in every now and then. Don't bother with armor, I ran around in just clothing (enchanted) + blunting belt. You might not even need it if you're going ranged. For a melee rogue the "Shod in Faith" boots was pretty nice, maybe you should keep them handy for shades/phantoms.

 

For weapons, I found corrode to be the least resisted damage enchant, but also fire to be the most usefull (Because I thoroughly hate shades and phantoms). 

 

I found "coordinated positioning" to be not necessary, however "shadowing beyond" was a lifesaver at times. Backstab is not recommended.

 

What armor and skills/build did you use to keep the melee rogue alive through PoTD?

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its actually not that hard.. at first i kept playing ranged and extended reach also. After i learn to play better and understood game and spell mechanics i found that melee rogues are the way to go for big damage.

 

unless u solo keeping melee rogue alive in potd is pretty easy.   Some things and tips about playing melee rogue..

 

- when enemies engage u in melee u can usually kill them so fast that they only get like 1 or 2 hits

- dont use choke-points or fight in doorways because it doesn't give room for the rogue to maneuver

- always let ur tanks run in first and engage as many as they can then u maneuver around and pick targets off

- u have 3x disengage abilities per encounter talents if u find urself taking too much damage (tho i havent really found the need for em so far)

- use aoe ccs which help u survive and kill faster

- Do not dump con u need to be able eat hits and spells occasionally.. i would either dump intel + perception or resolve

- movement speed is very very useful

 

i tried out saguine plate (even more damage with frenzy and only -17 recovery) and shod in faith on the rogue and its very good for surviving long times while dealing amazing damage. Problem is the rogue's abysmal hp leads to frequent resting if u dont try to always avoid damage. I would love to see them get x5 modifer for HP but it probably wont happen. I run around with plain cloth 99%.

 

k back on topic range rogue i would go

 

wood elf max dex and might (rest dont matter)

Talents/abilities

1- Blinding strike

2- Weapon focus/Marksman

3- Dirty Fighting

4- Weapon focus/Marksman

5- Crippling Strike

6 - Viscous Fighting

 

Rest is up to u since game gets much easier after level 6. U can customize and try things out.

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its actually not that hard.. at first i kept playing ranged and extended reach also. After i learn to play better and understood game and spell mechanics i found that melee rogues are the way to go for big damage.

 

unless u solo keeping melee rogue alive in potd is pretty easy.   Some things and tips about playing melee rogue..

 

- when enemies engage u in melee u can usually kill them so fast that they only get like 1 or 2 hits

- dont use choke-points or fight in doorways because it doesn't give room for the rogue to maneuver

- always let ur tanks run in first and engage as many as they can then u maneuver around and pick targets off

- u have 3x disengage abilities per encounter talents if u find urself taking too much damage (tho i havent really found the need for em so far)

- use aoe ccs which help u survive and kill faster

- Do not dump con u need to be able eat hits and spells occasionally.. i would either dump intel + perception or resolve

- movement speed is very very useful

 

i tried out saguine plate (even more damage with frenzy and only -17 recovery) and shod in faith on the rogue and its very good for surviving long times while dealing amazing damage. Problem is the rogue's abysmal hp leads to frequent resting if u dont try to always avoid damage. I would love to see them get x5 modifer for HP but it probably wont happen. I run around with plain cloth 99%.

 

I agree with you, and this is exactly how a ranger's pet should be played. The difference is most people take care of their melee rogue, but don't give a **** about the ranger's pet, then complain that it dies too easily.

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I agree with you, and this is exactly how a ranger's pet should be played. The difference is most people take care of their melee rogue, but don't give a **** about the ranger's pet, then complain that it dies too easily.

 

In their defense, a melee rogue has a LOT more survivability and unlike a pet, will actually have a prayer of surviving a disengage attempt.  So while either may need rescuing, it's going to be a lot easier and a heck of a lot more profitable to keep the rogue up.

 

My main difficulty with the ranger/rogue debates is that you can't count only the bonuses and not the risks and penalties in something so fragile as a pet being in the perfect position to attack the enemy that you want to shoot from an angle that allows driving flight, yet somehow the pet isn't being focused enough by these at least 2 nearby enemies to die from the attention.

 

Depending on the Pet being always able to attack the exact right target throws away the freedom to choose targets that is the whole point of being ranged instead of reach in the first place.

 

Perhaps part of the difference is how people use them... if you are always using doorways you can control how many come through, so as long as you only shoot one of the lead guys, you can be confident of getting pet accuracy plus driving flight.  In other words, if you use your ranger like a gimped pike barbarian.  But aside from the first couple of shots, I'm using my warbow rogue to nail archers/wizards that are too spread out or distant to be easily eliminated with spells.  A ranger can do that, but 90% of the time driving flight and probably the pet will be useless if that's what he's doing.

 

The only thing I could think of that a pet-using ranger could do better than a pike barb or melee rogue is stunlock the lead enemy in a doorway if they're using hunting bow.  IMO you'd be better off ignoring the pet and concentrating on being the best gun user in the game, but then you'd have to abandon the "most accurate in game" claim.

Edited by Manty5
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I would recommend a non spell based ranged character as a ranger over rogue having finished a PotD with a ranged rogue. I would review it as the ranged rogues have much less attack rating then ranger and overall the ranged rogue felt lack luster compared to a earlier playthrough I dual rogue who finished game with 150k damage done.  The second playthrough on potD as a ranged rogue finished above the priest as well as tank in total damage done but below all others.

 

The tank at the last auto save at the final boss had 18k total damage done, the priest 19k total damage done, and the ranged rogue 60k total damage done.  But the barbarian had over 140k done, the cipher over 120k, the druid over 120k. Looking at the totals again with two different characters one with a ranged rogue vs the first on as a dual wield 60k as ranged 150k as dual tells me all i need to know.

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I would review it as the ranged rogues have much less attack rating then ranger

 

I would review it as the ranged rogues have much less attack rating then ranger ...

 

I would review it as the ranged rogues have much less attack rating then ranger...

 

I would review it as the ranged rogues have much less attack rating then ranger...

 

I would review it as the ranged rogues have much less attack rating then ranger 

 

Have you even read the thread before posting in it?

Edited by Manty5
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I would recommend a non spell based ranged character as a ranger over rogue having finished a PotD with a ranged rogue. I would review it as the ranged rogues have much less attack rating then ranger and overall the ranged rogue felt lack luster compared to a earlier playthrough I dual rogue who finished game with 150k damage done.  The second playthrough on potD as a ranged rogue finished above the priest as well as tank in total damage done but below all others.

 

The tank at the last auto save at the final boss had 18k total damage done, the priest 19k total damage done, and the ranged rogue 60k total damage done.  But the barbarian had over 140k done, the cipher over 120k, the druid over 120k. Looking at the totals again with two different characters one with a ranged rogue vs the first on as a dual wield 60k as ranged 150k as dual tells me all i need to know.

Yes you're right. Even if you crunch the numbers, taking into account accuracy and attack speed and all sustained abilities, and work out an overall damage per second number, the ranger is superior to a ranged rogue. The pet hardly factors into the equation even if for some reason you can't figure out a way to keep it alive.

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Actually, the best warbow ranger build is the critical oriented one. Take hearth orlan, max might, dex & int (dump Per and/or con), take the rogue hit into crits skill & talent ASAP and, as soon as you have the money, buy the Borresaine bow in the Copperlane. On criticals (and you have at least 30% hit to crit conversion) that's a 10 second stun - nothing else really beats that.

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borresaine is awful and not worth the gold. the stun isnt that useful i rather find or buy an exceptional bow and enchant it with lashing and kith slaying (or carry multiple bows for different enemy types) for mid game. in late game u can stick with cloudpiercer once u upgrade it.

 

hit into crit is useless early game when your accuracy and debuffs arent that good. Enemy deflection are way higher then your accuracy for the most part in act 1 so those  crit talents are wasted. Go for accuracy first.

 

also that hearth orlan bonus isnt worth the 5 accuracy, -1 str, and -1 dex compared to elves. in melee i think its worth it but not ranged

Edited by dudex
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I agree with you, and this is exactly how a ranger's pet should be played. The difference is most people take care of their melee rogue, but don't give a **** about the ranger's pet, then complain that it dies too easily.

 

In their defense, a melee rogue has a LOT more survivability and unlike a pet, will actually have a prayer of surviving a disengage attempt.  So while either may need rescuing, it's going to be a lot easier and a heck of a lot more profitable to keep the rogue up.

 

My main difficulty with the ranger/rogue debates is that you can't count only the bonuses and not the risks and penalties in something so fragile as a pet being in the perfect position to attack the enemy that you want to shoot from an angle that allows driving flight, yet somehow the pet isn't being focused enough by these at least 2 nearby enemies to die from the attention.

 

Depending on the Pet being always able to attack the exact right target throws away the freedom to choose targets that is the whole point of being ranged instead of reach in the first place.

 

Perhaps part of the difference is how people use them... if you are always using doorways you can control how many come through, so as long as you only shoot one of the lead guys, you can be confident of getting pet accuracy plus driving flight.  In other words, if you use your ranger like a gimped pike barbarian.  But aside from the first couple of shots, I'm using my warbow rogue to nail archers/wizards that are too spread out or distant to be easily eliminated with spells.  A ranger can do that, but 90% of the time driving flight and probably the pet will be useless if that's what he's doing.

 

The only thing I could think of that a pet-using ranger could do better than a pike barb or melee rogue is stunlock the lead enemy in a doorway if they're using hunting bow.  IMO you'd be better off ignoring the pet and concentrating on being the best gun user in the game, but then you'd have to abandon the "most accurate in game" claim.

 

 

Curious where the rogue pulls this LOT more survivability out of? Low hp, low deflection, low DR, low move speed, low defenses thanks to min/maxed stats... got Escape once per encounter, which you have to choose over reckless assault, dirty fighting or any other great damage abilities at level-up. The ranger's pet can get master's call to KD and disengage, or takedown to KD then disengage.

 

And anyways, I think all of this discussion is moot, because even without a bear, the ranger will out-DPS the rogue. I've already posted the builds and done the calculations elsewhere on this forum, but you're free to show me where I've made a mistake.

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I started a ranged rogue for potd, however I found her dmg output "fine" but a bit slow. So I switched to melee rogue, and holy **** did she wreck face. I had no trouble keeping the melee rogue alive through potd, and she was by far the most important damage dealer in the group, paired with a cipher and a wizard. So if you simply want a rogue, I recommend melee.

 

Ranged is however a rather straight-forward build. Max dex & might, I had Int at 10 so I didn't have to ditch defences to the floor (you can at least attempt not to get critted). Con was around 9 I think, and very high perception to get some interrupts in every now and then. Don't bother with armor, I ran around in just clothing (enchanted) + blunting belt. You might not even need it if you're going ranged. For a melee rogue the "Shod in Faith" boots was pretty nice, maybe you should keep them handy for shades/phantoms.

 

For weapons, I found corrode to be the least resisted damage enchant, but also fire to be the most usefull (Because I thoroughly hate shades and phantoms). 

 

I found "coordinated positioning" to be not necessary, however "shadowing beyond" was a lifesaver at times. Backstab is not recommended.

 

What armor and skills/build did you use to keep the melee rogue alive through PoTD?

 

 

Specifically to keep him alive? Well I ran with leather until Defiance Bay, and then switched to an Excellently enchanted, crushing proofed, clothing actually. Also had blunting belt on through the game. Early game the survivability was a bit of an issue, but solved by using a pike behind tanks when there where many enemies, and dual wielding with few enemies. Mid-game (Act II) I had Oidrecht for draining, plus a lot of disabling from other classes to keep him safe and enable sneak attacks. Mental Binding, Knockdown, Paralysing, etc. It still pays off to use spells to enable the rogue, because the rogue kills so fast. In Act III the rogues stopping power was so ridiculous that it was no trouble sending him 1-on-1 with practically anything, or throwing Pain suppresion and the priests Triumph of the Crusaders for the hard fights. If I got swarmed "Shadowing Beyond" was my way out. I decimated back row spellcasters and archers before anyone could sneeze, and then moved in to flank the tanky front liners

 

For attributes I was a Hearth Orlan, going max might/dex - 10 Int, dump resolve, rest into perception. I got in a lot of interrupts as well which helped whenever someone was attacking me.

 

You could argue that the rogue isn't a self-sufficient damage dealer, and that would be true. I however enjoy the interplay between different roles on the team and had a lot of fun going this route. It's also key to understand that he doesn't have to be in the fighting scene immediately. You can wait for tanks to get control, that blind spell to land, and the worst offensive spells landing on the tanks before you start slicing and dicing. Seeing things just go "splat" in 0.2 seconds when I click on them with the rogue controlled is fun! :)

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Only legit ranger builds include quick switches blunderbusses island aumaua envenomed strkes and wounding shots ,

If somebody proclaims that melee rogue is better than ranged one .. well its just your opinion/preference no way ranged could loose to melee due to all the moving/positioning/pathfinding involved in melee combat of PoE  meanwhile ranged character just stands and nukes from the begining of the fight ( assuming you do correct build and pick the right weapon ofc and that is a warbow preferably cloudpiercer for the rending and jolting touch  ) , ranged rogues does all the same you described just they massacre stuff from 12 meters range , but the advantage here is that it is way better early and much safer in hard fights later on, only disadvantage is when scripted pre combat crap puts you infront of huge mob of enemies , gotta burn shadowing beyond then . 

 

Every thread about rogues gets overrun by bonding grief discussion lel :(

Edited by Exoduss
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Only legit ranger builds include quick switches blunderbusses island aumaua envenomed strkes and wounding shots ,

If somebody proclaims that melee rogue is better than ranged one .. well its just your opinion/preference no way ranged could loose to melee due to all the moving/positioning/pathfinding involved in melee combat of PoE  meanwhile ranged character just stands and nukes from the begining of the fight ( assuming you do correct build and pick the right weapon ofc and that is a warbow preferably cloudpiercer for the rending and jolting touch  ) , ranged rogues does all the same you described just they massacre stuff from 12 meters range , but the advantage here is that it is way better early and much safer in hard fights later on, only disadvantage is when scripted pre combat crap puts you infront of huge mob of enemies , gotta burn shadowing beyond then . 

 

Every thread about rogues gets overrun by bonding grief discussion lel :(

 

 

I haven't done the math, and you may be right, but the loss of Reckless Assualt (as it only works on melee) and the fact that a bow deals a lot less number of attacks in total than two fast or normal weapons, was in my experience substantially in favor of melee. By a wide margin. You also need to fiddle more with the other characters to apply a debuff since you can't flank the target yourself. Just my 2 ¢ of course :)

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Only legit ranger builds include quick switches blunderbusses island aumaua envenomed strkes and wounding shots ,

If somebody proclaims that melee rogue is better than ranged one .. well its just your opinion/preference no way ranged could loose to melee due to all the moving/positioning/pathfinding involved in melee combat of PoE  meanwhile ranged character just stands and nukes from the begining of the fight ( assuming you do correct build and pick the right weapon ofc and that is a warbow preferably cloudpiercer for the rending and jolting touch  ) , ranged rogues does all the same you described just they massacre stuff from 12 meters range , but the advantage here is that it is way better early and much safer in hard fights later on, only disadvantage is when scripted pre combat crap puts you infront of huge mob of enemies , gotta burn shadowing beyond then . 

 

Every thread about rogues gets overrun by bonding grief discussion lel :(

 

 

I haven't done the math, and you may be right, but the loss of Reckless Assualt (as it only works on melee) and the fact that a bow deals a lot less number of attacks in total than two fast or normal weapons, was in my experience substantially in favor of melee. By a wide margin. You also need to fiddle more with the other characters to apply a debuff since you can't flank the target yourself. Just my 2 ¢ of course :)

 

 

Definitely true. Melee rogue does about 2x the damage of a ranged rogue. The ranged rogue has the advantage of being able to reach back row enemies instantly and not depending on positioning. Also, larger burst damage and far easier to focus fire on enemies.

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