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Isn't balance skewed too much towards Deflection ?

balance defence tank tanking DR deflection metagame

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#21
Achilles

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Plate is -55%, so the difference between Plate and Mail is 10%. Since I'm not getting hit, no amount of DR is enticing.

Your question, framed a slightly different way, may sound like this:

Would you rather have slightly more DR that you don't need or slightly more damage and interrupts?

To me, this is a very easy decision :)

PS: I will only mention it in passing since it makes no significant impact on the argument (a bonus for mail is a bonus for plate as well), but keep in mind that I'm also taking Armored Grace, which puts my fighter at ~-30% recovery.

Edited by Achilles, 04 May 2015 - 01:54 PM.


#22
Razorchain

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On Potd I've found that hvy armour is a life saver on my tanks. Especially lower levels. There are so many instances they get stunned and paralyzed and then their deflection isnt going to save them.

My off tank is a monk (third tank) has Eder's armour because of the second chance and I have a paladin with endurance aura. I dont want him too well protected so he receives wounds and heals my party as a moon godlike

Edited by Razorchain, 04 May 2015 - 02:06 PM.


#23
mazeltov

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Plate is -55%, so the difference between Plate and Mail is 10%. Since I'm not getting hit, no amount of DR is enticing.

Your question, framed a slightly different way, may sound like this:

Would you rather have slightly more DR that you don't need or slightly more damage and interrupts?

To me, this is a very easy decision :)

 

Is Plate -55% a 1.05 change, or is the ingame tooltip wrong, which lists it as -50%?

 

If this is more of a full tank build than a tanky DPS off tank build (which it clearly is if it's "not getting hit"), slightly more of a small amount from +5% Recovery Speed is negligible. Significantly higher DR though is valuable for all tanks, and the higher base DR the better, since DR is used against hard-hitting spells along with every other attack.



#24
Achilles

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Hmm. I thought that's what I saw in the strategy guide but now I'm not sure where I saw it (since I just checked the book and it matches what you said). Time to update my spreadsheet. :)

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on the value that plate DR provides. To me, the difference between 5 DR and 500 DR is a non-starter if Deflection is such that your opponent is consistently missing you (for 0 damage). Yes, I could still take Armored Grace in plate, but that -5% recovery is still more valuable to me (for damage and interrupts) than DR that is sitting around, unused.

Regarding spells: there is no Will DR, so I won't consider Will-targeting spells for this discussion. With that said, my PC is ending the game with 120 deflection and 120 reflex. So I repeat: DR doesn't matter if I'm not being hit :)

#25
mazeltov

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Regarding spells: there is no Will DR, so I won't consider Will-targeting spells for this discussion. With that said, my PC is ending the game with 120 deflection and 120 reflex. So I repeat: DR doesn't matter if I'm not being hit :)

 

Lots of effects that deal damage target Fortitude. While there may or may not be damaging spells that target Will, effects that do target Will typically lower the other Defenses, making Will important to have high for a tank as well. In any case, end game stats are the exception; for most of the game, characters, including tanks, won't have Defenses high enough to consistently make attacks Miss. It would be pretty amusing for a player to use all-around superior Plate armor through most of the game, then switch into worse Mail near the end game for the sake of +5% Recovery Speed on his already infrequent, low damage attacks.

 

To take this line of reasoning all the way, it would be best for your "unhittable" tank to wear no armor at all, since any Recovery penalty inhibits his ability to deliver low damage attacks along with the odd Interrupt.



#26
Achilles

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Yes, I'm aware. Unfortunately, I don't have Fort or Will memorized, nor do I have the game in front of me to confirm them. Rather than make something up, I opted not to mention them, however I assure you they are impressive.

And unfortunately you are wrong. My PC is not nearly as "bullet-proof" mid game as he is later on, but he becomes very resilent as soon as he takes W&S Style. Furthermore, my PC plays the entire game in the mail he starts in (he does swap out for a robe in Raedric's Keep, but that's temporary). So I'm not advocating that one plays part of the game in slow, bulky plate and then switch later, I'm saying there's never any reason to put plate on at all.

Regarding your last point, I'm pretty sure I conceded that back in one of my first posts. I don't for 2 reasons: 1) it feels like cheese and 2) I don't put any item on my party unless it matches their paper doll on the character screen. I would have to come up with a new "shopping list" if I changed any of my party members armor :)

#27
Razorchain

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I think it boils down to difficulty. I was running a party on hard where no one of my 3 melee characters had a shield. I had a two hander Paladin as my PC. A one hander crit machine fighter and a dual wielding barbarian. I had no problem getting my deflection high enough, but I still wore hvy armour as I wasnt stacking deflection.

But then we have Potd where enemies have higher accuracy and deflection and there are more of them. Higher acc means they will hit more debuffs that lower your defenses which leads to more debuffs and hits. A phantom can literally keep 1 character stunlocked the whole fight or xaurip skirmishers can keep your frontline paralyzed.


Because of higher defenses fights will also take longer which means you get hit more often making hvy armour more important. You need 15 higher in your defenses on Potd and even then your will is also important to avoid debuffs which lower your defenses.

I found that chanters shine on this difficulty because on lower difficulties fights are over before I can cast a spell or irrelevant because there is only
a mop up left when they can finally cast something.

#28
Kaigen42

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It also depends on playstyle. If you use spells freely and rest after every few fights, then your tanks only need to be durable enough to survive. Their health is unlikely to be a limiting factor in that scenario. If you use spells sparingly and try to cram in as many fights between rests as possible, then keeping your tanks from taking even small amounts of damage can have an impact on how often you rest.



#29
Achilles

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It also depends on playstyle. If you use spells freely and rest after every few fights, then your tanks only need to be durable enough to survive. Their health is unlikely to be a limiting factor in that scenario. If you use spells sparingly and try to cram in as many fights between rests as possible, then keeping your tanks from taking even small amounts of damage can have an impact on how often you rest.

I'm not sure this has quite the impact you might think (which isn't to say that I think you're wrong). Because I play on Hard and tend to want to save those 2 camping supplies, I have a habit of refusing to rest until I absolutely have to. This is generally bad for me, as it means I have a couple of fairly fresh party members and several who are making due via scrolls or per encounter abilities. Gets really dangerous after level 9.

#30
mazeltov

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And unfortunately you are wrong. My PC is not nearly as "bullet-proof" mid game as he is later on, but he becomes very resilent as soon as he takes W&S Style. Furthermore, my PC plays the entire game in the mail he starts in (he does swap out for a robe in Raedric's Keep, but that's temporary). So I'm not advocating that one plays part of the game in slow, bulky plate and then switch later, I'm saying there's never any reason to put plate on at all.

 

Didn't claim you did play that way, only that it would be amusing if someone did if they followed your reasoning (such as it is), switching from slow, bulky Plate to slow, bulky, less protective Mail for trivial reasons. Not that there's much risk of that, because Plate is clearly superior for tanks in virtually all cases but complete Misses, i.e. for the parts of the game that matter, reducing the reasons to downgrade full tank armor to either "aesthetics," "feels," or, more saliently, unique enchantments provided by lower-tier armor that are more valuable for a specific build or party setup.



#31
Kandidus

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I suppose the question of heavy armor vs light armor for your high deflection tanks is also dependent on what you need them for.  For my party I just need my 2 tanks to keep the enemies engaged - I have enough damage from my druid/wizard/cipher that that I don't really need my tanks to do damage.  They also have low might scores anyways - so I'd happily take a higher DR over more weak attacks.  Besides, ever since my party hit 9 my tanks end up just holding position outside of the AOE kill zone that my wizard/druid have set up - a lot of the time they aren't even doing aside from standing pretty :p



#32
Achilles

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And unfortunately you are wrong. My PC is not nearly as "bullet-proof" mid game as he is later on, but he becomes very resilent as soon as he takes W&S Style. Furthermore, my PC plays the entire game in the mail he starts in (he does swap out for a robe in Raedric's Keep, but that's temporary). So I'm not advocating that one plays part of the game in slow, bulky plate and then switch later, I'm saying there's never any reason to put plate on at all.


Didn't claim you did play that way, only that it would be amusing if someone did if they followed your reasoning (such as it is), switching from slow, bulky Plate to slow, bulky, less protective Mail for trivial reasons. Not that there's much risk of that, because Plate is clearly superior for tanks in virtually all cases but complete Misses, i.e. for the parts of the game that matter, reducing the reasons to downgrade full tank armor to either "aesthetics," "feels," or, more saliently, unique enchantments provided by lower-tier armor that are more valuable for a specific build or party setup.
Didn't claim that you did claim I played that way. Your post seemed to imply that someone would, or would have to in order for mail to make any sense.

But clearly DR for DR's sake is good enough for you and no amount of logic is going to make a dent in that. Which is fine, it's single-player game so like I said a few times "to each their own". I merely wanted to know if there was a good reason to give a player both high defense and high DR. I didn't think there was, my experience told that there wasn't, and nothing I've read here has challenged that, so I guess I have my answer.

#33
mazeltov

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Your post seemed to imply that someone would, or would have to in order for mail to make any sense.

 

...


I merely wanted to know if there was a good reason to give a player both high defense and high DR. I didn't think there was, my experience told that there wasn't, and nothing I've read here has challenged that, so I guess I have my answer.

 

Ah, you imagined an implication, and claimed I was wrong based on it. Fair enough.
 
I realize what you were trying to say, but it was relevant to explain why it was wrong, not to convince you personally but for the sake of others reading the thread who might buy into your claims and develop a false impression of the way the game works. Tanks need good Defenses, and they need good armor for when those Defenses fail, which is why "there was a good reason to give a player both high defense and high DR."


#34
Schyzm

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I agree that like DR. the other defenses should have a way to grant them diminishing returns as it is now the marginal value you get from 1 point of deflection increases as you get more deflection.

 

so 20-21 deflection is ok

 

120-121 deflection is many times better 

 

to the point of course where some portions of the game you can become unhittable. I also like the way of doing it basically the way DR does it in that you always allow something to get through. completely missing is kinda lame anyway.



#35
Achilles

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Your post seemed to imply that someone would, or would have to in order for mail to make any sense.

 

...


I merely wanted to know if there was a good reason to give a player both high defense and high DR. I didn't think there was, my experience told that there wasn't, and nothing I've read here has challenged that, so I guess I have my answer.

 

Ah, you imagined an implication, and claimed I was wrong based on it. Fair enough.
 
I realize what you were trying to say, but it was relevant to explain why it was wrong, not to convince you personally but for the sake of others reading the thread who might buy into your claims and develop a false impression of the way the game works. Tanks need good Defenses, and they need good armor for when those Defenses fail, which is why "there was a good reason to give a player both high defense and high DR."

 

You're seeing commas where there were periods. At this point you're being pedantic and not worth talking to (which is sad, because I've mostly enjoyed your posts in the past).

 

I also hope that our readers haven't left this thread with bad ideas. I'm hoping that they won't buy into this false "plate or nothing" dichotomy that is just about everywhere in this forum. I hope they take the time to read the combat log and notice that "miss" is feels better than "hits for 8 damage" (or "hits for 3 damage" in your game because DR is just so awesome). I hope they continue to put heavy armor on party members who need it (like Kana), but not party members that don't (like Eder). And I hope that once they do all that, the come back and try to correct people who keep insisting that plate is incredible and everything else is somehow inferior.

 

Toodles.

 

PS: DEF: 118, FORT: 91, REF: 118, WILL: 89



#36
mazeltov

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I also hope that our readers haven't left this thread with bad ideas.

 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of bad ideas is that good posters do nothing." - Lil Wayne

 

--

 

to the point of course where some portions of the game you can become unhittable. I also like the way of doing it basically the way DR does it in that you always allow something to get through. completely missing is kinda lame anyway.

 

The Graze system was supposed to help mitigate the all or nothing nature of attacks. At astronomically high Defenses even Grazes are obsoleted to some extent. I think the automatic Defense gain per level could be flattened out more, but it needs to be done in a way that brings tanks down a peg without hurting the other roles too much.



#37
Razorchain

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Your post seemed to imply that someone would, or would have to in order for mail to make any sense.

 

...


I merely wanted to know if there was a good reason to give a player both high defense and high DR. I didn't think there was, my experience told that there wasn't, and nothing I've read here has challenged that, so I guess I have my answer.

 

Ah, you imagined an implication, and claimed I was wrong based on it. Fair enough.
 
I realize what you were trying to say, but it was relevant to explain why it was wrong, not to convince you personally but for the sake of others reading the thread who might buy into your claims and develop a false impression of the way the game works. Tanks need good Defenses, and they need good armor for when those Defenses fail, which is why "there was a good reason to give a player both high defense and high DR."

 

You're seeing commas where there were periods. At this point you're being pedantic and not worth talking to (which is sad, because I've mostly enjoyed your posts in the past).

 

I also hope that our readers haven't left this thread with bad ideas. I'm hoping that they won't buy into this false "plate or nothing" dichotomy that is just about everywhere in this forum. I hope they take the time to read the combat log and notice that "miss" is feels better than "hits for 8 damage" (or "hits for 3 damage" in your game because DR is just so awesome). I hope they continue to put heavy armor on party members who need it (like Kana), but not party members that don't (like Eder). And I hope that once they do all that, the come back and try to correct people who keep insisting that plate is incredible and everything else is somehow inferior.

 

Toodles.

 

PS: DEF: 118, FORT: 91, REF: 118, WILL: 89

 

 

 

Of course you don't take DR for DR's sake.  My backliners have lighter armor, but that's because they are not meant to be taking damage.  

 

Let's look at why we use Hvy armour or Plate.  On hard difficulty it really doesn't matter, having DR 9 or DR 12 isn't going to make much of a difference because you'll be killing the enemy so fast if you know what you are doing.

 

Now you go to Potd difficulty and now you have more enemies who have +15 accuracy and +15 to all defenses and +25% endurance.  This means you'll hit less, which means you'll do less damage, and the fight will be longer which means you'll be hit more often. Thats where the plate comes in, to mitigate the damage you take.  

 

The enemy will have easier time to use crowd controls on you and debuff you because even though you have 120 in deflection you might have lower FORT/REF/WILL.  And when the enemy stuns/paralyzes/blinds you your deflection will suffer which means you'll get hit.  So having decent armour, especially on lower levels is good, especially since your tanks will be doing so little damage anyways.  When you have a lvl 3 character with 30 in accuracy because of a shield against a Shade with 75 in deflection you are not going to be hitting and dealing much damage.

 

On hard difficulty you'll be bursting through your enemies, hitting more often, debuffing more often which leads to more hits landing which means they die quickly and you'll have lesser use for hvy armor.

 

I'm playing on Potd with a tanky Paladin as my main and even with 102 in deflection at lvl 5 and Zelous Endurance and Plate armour (unenchanted) I have DR 15 and still he hits the floor sometimes.  He gets blinded, paralyzed and stunned even though he has +18 to Fort/Ref/Will



#38
View619

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I don't want to be that guy who compares POE mechanics to D&D/IE games...but things like this are why critical rolls always hit in D&D. There may need to be an adjustment where rolling within a certain range is a guaranteed hit no matter how much deflection you have. Also, better AI that knows when to disengage and go after a weaker target.

 

I'm hoping the expansion has a wider range of enemies that do damage by targeting more than just deflection.



#39
Schyzm

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I don't want to be that guy who compares POE mechanics to D&D/IE games...but things like this are why critical rolls always hit in D&D. There may need to be an adjustment where rolling within a certain range is a guaranteed hit no matter how much deflection you have. Also, better AI that knows when to disengage and go after a weaker target.

 

I'm hoping the expansion has a wider range of enemies that do damage by targeting more than just deflection.

 

I think a nice system might be something like <50 graze, 50 or more hit, and then do miss/crit on the rolls of the attacker, so like <10 attack roll miss, >90 attack roll crit or wutever. it would devalue accuracy some but that's kind of the point.



#40
Kanasuke

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So what the OP is saying is, it sucks that there is really only one way to build a tank? 







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: balance, defence, tank, tanking, DR, deflection, metagame

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