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C. S. Lewis wrote about the four types of love.  He considered friendship to be love.  I agree with him.

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You, too? Thought I was the only one

 

If have no idea what people consider friendship if they don't consider it love.

 

As far as the Greek term goes I've only heard of the these:

 

AGAPE which is the complete giving of love to another person. Brotherly love. Love thy neighbor type of thing.

PHILEO which is the affection, emotion, a fondness one person has for another. Friends, family, being treated as equals.

STORGE which is the natural affection. Parent/child love.

EROS which refers to love between a husband and wife. Sexual, passion.

 

So I suppose the game could use a little philia and eros.

 

 

I'd be happy with some eros, for only the passion. The Greeks didn't see the need/use of passion in the other forms of love.

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I know I missed most of the boat on this, but if memory serves me, castrato Giovanni Velluti was well known for his sexual misadventures (often with wives whose husbands didn't realize that him having been castrated before puberty didn't mean he couldn't have sex).

 

I may have to look him up, sounds like he was very... eloquent...

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Seeing the fine work that's been done by modders with the Infinity Engine, I'd like to see them give us mod tools.

 

You mean, like the mod that lets you bang your sister?

Leave it to someone to find one of the worst examples.  Of the thousands of mods out there, that's the one you quote?

 

No.  Like various new NPC romances, Solaufein romance, Nalia romance (PPG), Valygar romance (dunno about how "good" it is), the Flirt paks, the expanded Anomen romance.. many others. :yes:

Edited by Cybersquirt
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Which one of the companions would you choose to be with? What race and gender would you be?

 

 Shape shifting druid who turns into a wolf to have a threesome with Eder and Itumaak. If that's an option, what would be the point of anything else?

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Ancient Greeks had a couple of other words to describe states of love.

 

1) Pragma, or longstanding love

 

2) Philautia, or love of the self - this had two types.  Narcissism and the other was a healthier type that actually enhanced your ability to love others. 

 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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Seeing the fine work that's been done by modders with the Infinity Engine, I'd like to see them give us mod tools.

 

You mean, like the mod that lets you bang your sister?

Leave it to someone to find one of the worst examples.  Of the thousands of mods out there, that's the one you quote?

 

No.  Like various new NPC romances, Solaufein romance, Nalia romance (PPG), Valygar romance (dunno about how "good" it is), the Flirt paks, the expanded Anomen romance.. many others. :yes:

 

 

To be perfectly fair: most of the Imoen mod dialogue was actually pretty decent. The campfire scene when leaving the underdark was excellent.

I just disliked the mary-sue'ish rape plot (and the idea in general, but hey, it's not like incest fantasies are incredibly new or world-shattering).

 

"Look, I have been tortured physically and mentally for weeks and had my soul ripped out of my body... but let's concentrate our discussion about how he had a dwarf ****ing me." ... seriously?

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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Iovora is a pretty decent example of what Obsidian would need to do with romances to  avoid becoming what Bioware has become.

 

If featured, romances need to be represented differently. 

 

For example, rather than being primarily an issue of mutual attraction between two characters developing in dialogues over time (as in a Bioware game), the protagonist would be able to pursue marriage with an NPC as a solution to a quest. Applying a haemneg on top of that later would improve my reputation with whatever elf faction exists in the narrative of Pillars of Eternity 2, giving me options for alliances and such that wouldn't exist otherwise. Ideally, the NPCs who could participate in this marriage and/or haemneg would be interchangeable. For example, I could enter a haemneg with my elf companion, or convince the elf I saved from the bandits at the crossroads to marry me -- in either case, my reputation with elves improves. 

 

The issue of of love or attraction would probably feature in a dialogue or two (perhaps if you admit you don't love the character you are proposing to, you need a higher Resolve score to convince them to go through with it), but it wouldn't be the catalyst or focus of the relationship.

Edited by StoneCraft
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If that were the case I believe this would be the rare RPG with more options for women than for men (as stated, BG2 only had Anomen...) because I assume they would be able to choose Edér and Aloth at the very least (those seem to be the kind of options that fit in with traditional RPG romances) yet the only woman that I feel leaves room open for romance would be Pallegina. Grieving Mother seems too out-there.

 

Honestly, I suspect that this was deliberate-- Obsidian wanted to make strong and interesting female characters, while avoiding the easy prurient route to audience appreciation.  They decided on no romance, and they wanted to avoid tempting the audience into asking for it.  So we get a devoted mother, a mystical maternal figure (if not literally a mother), and a warrior who has been raised with a somewhat genderless self-image. 

 

 

The allure of fantasy games is that we undertake quests and activities not possible in the "real" world--it's an alternate reality.  So why clutter that up with a bunch of cartoon porn?  It's one thing to slay imaginary monsters and evil-doers in fantasy RPGs, quite another to have cartoon-fantasy sexual activity in a game.  There is enough of that on the Internet as it is...;)  No need to foul up the game with that kind of thing, imo.  I have no clue why people want this stuff in an RPG, and then want to fantasize even further and call it "romance."  When Geralt visits a whore for some (hopefully) VD-free fun in the Witcher universe, what does that do for the person playing the game?  Not much, actually.  I guess it's okay if your game of choice is the Sims. I guess.

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It's very well known that I don't make mistakes, so if you should stumble across the odd error here and there in what I have written, you may immediately deduce--quite correctly--that I did not write it... :biggrin:

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The allure of fantasy games is that we undertake quests and activities not possible in the "real" world--it's an alternate reality.  So why clutter that up with a bunch of cartoon porn?  It's one thing to slay imaginary monsters and evil-doers in fantasy RPGs, quite another to have cartoon-fantasy sexual activity in a game.  There is enough of that on the Internet as it is...wink.png  No need to foul up the game with that kind of thing, imo.  I have no clue why people want this stuff in an RPG, and then want to fantasize even further and call it "romance."  When Geralt visits a whore for some (hopefully) VD-free fun in the Witcher universe, what does that do for the person playing the game?  Not much, actually.  I guess it's okay if your game of choice is the Sims. I guess.

But a lot of people play The Sims (not me, but I know some) so mixing some SIMS features into any game could be very appealing to them. As long as it's something you can ignore if you want and it's not shoved in your face (like DA2) then why not. To me just about anything you add just adds depth to the game.

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If that were the case I believe this would be the rare RPG with more options for women than for men (as stated, BG2 only had Anomen...) because I assume they would be able to choose Edér and Aloth at the very least (those seem to be the kind of options that fit in with traditional RPG romances) yet the only woman that I feel leaves room open for romance would be Pallegina. Grieving Mother seems too out-there.

 

Honestly, I suspect that this was deliberate-- Obsidian wanted to make strong and interesting female characters, while avoiding the easy prurient route to audience appreciation.  They decided on no romance, and they wanted to avoid tempting the audience into asking for it.  So we get a devoted mother, a mystical maternal figure (if not literally a mother), and a warrior who has been raised with a somewhat genderless self-image. 

 

 

The allure of fantasy games is that we undertake quests and activities not possible in the "real" world--it's an alternate reality.  So why clutter that up with a bunch of cartoon porn?  It's one thing to slay imaginary monsters and evil-doers in fantasy RPGs, quite another to have cartoon-fantasy sexual activity in a game.  There is enough of that on the Internet as it is... ;)  No need to foul up the game with that kind of thing, imo.  I have no clue why people want this stuff in an RPG, and then want to fantasize even further and call it "romance."  When Geralt visits a whore for some (hopefully) VD-free fun in the Witcher universe, what does that do for the person playing the game?  Not much, actually.  I guess it's okay if your game of choice is the Sims. I guess.

 

You're comparing a well written romantic partner to an image to fap to. Of course you have no clue why someone would want a ROLEPLAYING outlet in a ROLEPLAYING GAME

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If that were the case I believe this would be the rare RPG with more options for women than for men (as stated, BG2 only had Anomen...) because I assume they would be able to choose Edér and Aloth at the very least (those seem to be the kind of options that fit in with traditional RPG romances) yet the only woman that I feel leaves room open for romance would be Pallegina. Grieving Mother seems too out-there.

Honestly, I suspect that this was deliberate-- Obsidian wanted to make strong and interesting female characters, while avoiding the easy prurient route to audience appreciation. They decided on no romance, and they wanted to avoid tempting the audience into asking for it. So we get a devoted mother, a mystical maternal figure (if not literally a mother), and a warrior who has been raised with a somewhat genderless self-image.

The allure of fantasy games is that we undertake quests and activities not possible in the "real" world--it's an alternate reality. So why clutter that up with a bunch of cartoon porn? It's one thing to slay imaginary monsters and evil-doers in fantasy RPGs, quite another to have cartoon-fantasy sexual activity in a game. There is enough of that on the Internet as it is...;) No need to foul up the game with that kind of thing, imo. I have no clue why people want this stuff in an RPG, and then want to fantasize even further and call it "romance." When Geralt visits a whore for some (hopefully) VD-free fun in the Witcher universe, what does that do for the person playing the game? Not much, actually. I guess it's okay if your game of choice is the Sims. I guess.
Right. Let's remove friendship and rivalry as well. Let's remove companions' reactions to our actions altogether. Let's make all characters in the game devoid of personality, existing only as quest distributors and exposition vehicles. We can't possibly allow the player character to form any sort of bond with them, now can we? No, I have no clue why anyone would want that in their roleplaying game. Everyone knows RPGs are only about hacking and slashing your way through monster-infested dungeons. Human emotions are for dating sims and Bioware games. Edited by Rosveen
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If that were the case I believe this would be the rare RPG with more options for women than for men (as stated, BG2 only had Anomen...) because I assume they would be able to choose Edér and Aloth at the very least (those seem to be the kind of options that fit in with traditional RPG romances) yet the only woman that I feel leaves room open for romance would be Pallegina. Grieving Mother seems too out-there.

Honestly, I suspect that this was deliberate-- Obsidian wanted to make strong and interesting female characters, while avoiding the easy prurient route to audience appreciation. They decided on no romance, and they wanted to avoid tempting the audience into asking for it. So we get a devoted mother, a mystical maternal figure (if not literally a mother), and a warrior who has been raised with a somewhat genderless self-image.
The allure of fantasy games is that we undertake quests and activities not possible in the "real" world--it's an alternate reality. So why clutter that up with a bunch of cartoon porn? It's one thing to slay imaginary monsters and evil-doers in fantasy RPGs, quite another to have cartoon-fantasy sexual activity in a game. There is enough of that on the Internet as it is... ;) No need to foul up the game with that kind of thing, imo. I have no clue why people want this stuff in an RPG, and then want to fantasize even further and call it "romance." When Geralt visits a whore for some (hopefully) VD-free fun in the Witcher universe, what does that do for the person playing the game? Not much, actually. I guess it's okay if your game of choice is the Sims. I guess.
Right. Let's remove friendship and rivalry as well. Let's remove companions' reactions to our actions altogether. Let's make all characters in the game devoid of personality, existing only as quest distributors and exposition vehicles. We can't possibly allow the player character to form any sort of bond with them, now can we? No, I have no clue why anyone would want that in their roleplaying game. Everyone knows RPGs are only about hacking and slashing your way through monster-infested dungeons. Human emotions are for dating sims and Bioware games.

 

 

You say that, in I hope is sarcasm, yet I have friends that prefer their rpgs to be straight hack and slash dungeon crawls with as little "rp" as possible. It makes me shed a tear, a single perfect tear, on the inside everytime I hear something like that.

Edited by kaiki
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Right. Let's remove friendship and rivalry as well. Let's remove companions' reactions to our actions altogether. Let's make all characters in the game devoid of personality, existing only as quest distributors and exposition vehicles. We can't possibly allow the player character to form any sort of bond with them, now can we? No, I have no clue why anyone would want that in their roleplaying game. Everyone knows RPGs are only about hacking and slashing your way through monster-infested dungeons. Human emotions are for dating sims and Bioware games.

 

You say that, in I hope is sarcasm, yet I have friends that prefer their rpgs to be straight hack and slash dungeon crawls with as little "rp" as possible. It makes me shed a tear, a single perfect tear, on the inside everytime I hear something like that.

 

There are games like that. Particularly those where you create your whole (or most of) party and your non-main characters are just assets to the combat and nothing more. I get people can like that, but that's just not me. Even in DOS I wished we didn't create two of the party members ... and I really wish the NPC's you could recruit actually had more personality. W2 another one where you can make most of your party, essentially rendering them to be nothing but combat assets. To me that's all just lazy development and someone just not wanting to put in the effort necessary to make interesting NPC's and companions. In this day and age where games are being funded and all but paid for before the game even goes on sale you'd think they could try harder ... but whatever.

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To be perfectly fair: most of the Imoen mod dialogue was actually pretty decent. The campfire scene when leaving the underdark was excellent.

I just disliked the mary-sue'ish rape plot (and the idea in general, but hey, it's not like incest fantasies are incredibly new or world-shattering).

 

"Look, I have been tortured physically and mentally for weeks and had my soul ripped out of my body... but let's concentrate our discussion about how he had a dwarf ****ing me." ... seriously?

Yeah, I've played it - I helped proof it even.  For length and sensitivity, it's not one of the worst out there (the guy worked really hard on it) but it's not the best either.. Sleeping with your half-sister is a hard sell.  I was thinking of the alt Nalia romance (JC's is excellent).  There are literally hundreds of mods out there and well over 20 romances... at least for the original game... don't know or care about EE.

Edited by Cybersquirt
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Yeah, romance has never been part of the fantasy genre.

 

Has its roots in medieval romances like Tristan and Iseult. Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere? A love triangle that pre-dated soap operas by a while. 

 

Say, there isn't anything in Tolkien about a romance between Aragorn and Arwen, is there?

 

The chivalric knight always fought the dragon for his lady, often wearing an article of her clothing. 

 

Would Game of Thrones be at all interesting without ... the dalliances, the alliances, the romantic relationships? 

 

Now I will grant all this stuff may not be up to modern standards and ideas of gender, sexuality, and relationships, so the Bioware folks have always stumbled trying to do that, but ... it IS part of the genre. 

 

I really don't care whether or not they get added to these games, but I don't agree with people whose hate on Bioware is solely based on the fact that they do them. I have lots of other complaints, mostly relating to their ongoing consolization of their games. 

Edited by CybAnt1
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Yeah, romance has never been part of the fantasy genre.

 

Has its roots in medieval romances like Tristan and Iseult. Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere? A love triangle that pre-dated soap operas by a while. 

 

Say, there isn't anything in Tolkien about a romance between Aragorn and Arwen, is there?

 

 

Yeah, but those are all relationships between characters. PCs (especially in games like PoE where there is so much variety in race, background, attitude, etc.) are almost never characterized strongly enough for a romance to feel very compelling as anything other than fanservice. Romance between CNPCs, that could possibly work.

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Yeah, romance has never been part of the fantasy genre.

 

Has its roots in medieval romances like Tristan and Iseult. Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere? A love triangle that pre-dated soap operas by a while. 

 

Say, there isn't anything in Tolkien about a romance between Aragorn and Arwen, is there?

 

 

Yeah, but those are all relationships between characters. PCs (especially in games like PoE where there is so much variety in race, background, attitude, etc.) are almost never characterized strongly enough for a romance to feel very compelling as anything other than fanservice. Romance between CNPCs, that could possibly work.

 

 

I'm not convinced by that argument. Surely if the PC can form other kinds of relationships (such as friends) with NPCs, they can form a romantic one if well written. Whatever some people might say of Bioware romances, some of them work very well. It's all a question of writing them accordingly.

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I guess that's true. Romantic love and familial bonds should really use different words rather than share the word "love".

 

Does familial bonds go for familiars as well? Like a Ranger's pet.

 

I'd also like to see something from WL2 where you can charm enemy animals and see where it leads, especially if you're a shapeshifting druid.

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Yeah, romance has never been part of the fantasy genre.

 

Has its roots in medieval romances like Tristan and Iseult. Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere? A love triangle that pre-dated soap operas by a while. 

 

Say, there isn't anything in Tolkien about a romance between Aragorn and Arwen, is there?

 

 

Yeah, but those are all relationships between characters. PCs (especially in games like PoE where there is so much variety in race, background, attitude, etc.) are almost never characterized strongly enough for a romance to feel very compelling as anything other than fanservice. Romance between CNPCs, that could possibly work.

 

 

I'm not convinced by that argument. Surely if the PC can form other kinds of relationships (such as friends) with NPCs, they can form a romantic one if well written. Whatever some people might say of Bioware romances, some of them work very well. It's all a question of writing them accordingly.

 

 

It's not impossible, but it's very difficult to do without undermining the characterization of CNPCs. The sort of person that a character falls in love with and under what circumstances says a lot about who they are. If the character is willing to get involved with anyone, from the hairiest wild orlan to the mightiest aumua, same or opposite sex, from the cruelest Bleak Walker to the kindest Wayfarer, then you're basically taking a big chunk of their character and dissolving it into bland mush, all to service a player fantasy of getting some elf strange or whatever. But on the other hand, if you give characters an actual sexual orientation, racial preferences, disposition preferences, a requirement for specific conversation choices, etc. etc., you're writing so many PCs off that it isn't worth the resources.

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(DISCLAIMER: I will only reply to your response in this post. In other words I'm not going to make a new post to respond to you, just scroll up and check this post for responses, thx).

 

I'd just like to add that if POE 2 adds romance, please make sure the female looks like an actual female and please do not make her look like a man in anyway, thank you. 

 

Check my profile picture for an example of female vs male.

 

I'd just like to add that if POE 2 adds romance, please make sure the female is perpetually clad in a head covering and full-length robe, ... such that she could look either beautiful or mannish but folks like luzarius would never know for sure and would have to actually listen to her words to determine if she was a loveable character to them.

But do give her beautiful eyes, thank you.

 

Bioware has done this with Tali. But I judged her based upon her unbelievably amazing figure which was extremely feminine in nature.  Her facial bone structure, although covered, still implies beauty because it adhered to a supermodels facial bone structure.  I could tell she has good genes with a high chance of physical beauty underneath which qualified her as a romance option.  Simply put, she was a safe bet and worth the risk! :)  Tali also had a thigh gap which is a sign of good genes.

 

If Cassandra Pentaghast was hypothetically covered, then everyone would automatically mistake her for a man since all you'd see is the male facial structure they modeled her after.

Edited by luzarius
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Despite what I may post, I'm a huge fan of Pillars of Eternity, it's one of my favorite RPG's.

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I'd just like to add that if POE 2 adds romance, please make sure the female is perpetually clad in a head covering and full-length robe, conservative Islam style, such that she could look either beatiful or mannish but folks like luzarius would never know for sure and would have to actually listen to her words to determine if she was a loveable character to them.

 

But do give her beautiful eyes, thank you.

 

(Not saying Islam is a good or a bad thing. Or that its clothing practices are good. Just referencing the type of garb, let's not derail, thx.)

Edited by scrotiemcb
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