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UK election special

politics trolling alts United Kingdom

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#61
Walsingham

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What elections?

550395278.jpg

 

They are the Queen's elections, naturally. Constitutional monarchy, old boy.

 

Best bit of kit I've seen so far: election predictor. http://www.telegraph...ate-silver.html

 

Quite eerie to see Scotland all yellow like that. When the f*** did the Scots become commies?



#62
213374U

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I'll continue the point if anyone's interested.

 

Sure, go right ahead. You posted only questions, but not your perfectly smart but dangerously left-leaning colleague's responses. Maybe we can compare them to actual proposals/demands made by the montagnards bolsheviks British left and discuss their merits and flaws.



#63
Monte Carlo

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I'll continue the point if anyone's interested.

 

Sure, go right ahead. You posted only questions, but not your perfectly smart but dangerously left-leaning colleague's responses. Maybe we can compare them to actual proposals/demands made by the montagnards bolsheviks British left and discuss their merits and flaws.

 

 

It doesn't really matter, an of course there's a healthy dash of rhetoric...

 

because the only answer is a People's Committee will have to decide. And once they've decided they'll have to enforce it.

 

This will, at best, lead to a massive flight of capital elsewhere. And, at worst, political coercion.

 

Numbers, old boy, Socialists are only good at one measure of equality, and that's making everyone equally miserable.



#64
Walsingham

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I'll continue the point if anyone's interested.

 

Sure, go right ahead. You posted only questions, but not your perfectly smart but dangerously left-leaning colleague's responses. Maybe we can compare them to actual proposals/demands made by the montagnards bolsheviks British left and discuss their merits and flaws.

 

 

It was something along the lines Monte's already said. How is a people's committee going to reduce wage unfairness?

 

Make all wages the same? Wow. Stop investors from getting money for risking their wages backing good ideas? Or starting businesses that grow? Super-wow.

 

So presumably you'd support something more complex than a non-flat rate. Maybe worthy causes and jobs get more money. Awesome. Except you're either making it up as you go along dictatorially, or you have a code. If you have a code then persons who have the potential to accrue money will pay experts to explain just the right jobs and combinations of tasks to do to earn more money. This is what 'progressive' taxation is supposed to do. [EDIT: and it fails, in case you hadn't noticed]

 

Or, you know, you get a thriving black market economy. Or everyone with an ounce of ambition goes and lives somewhere else.

 

Or I guess you could build some sort of wall or minefield with barbed wire around your utopia to stop people leaving.


Edited by Walsingham, 06 May 2015 - 11:33 AM.

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#65
213374U

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It was something along the lines Monte's already said. How is a people's committee going to reduce wage unfairness?
 
Make all wages the same? Wow. Stop investors from getting money for risking their wages backing good ideas? Or starting businesses that grow? Super-wow.
 
So presumably you'd support something more complex than a non-flat rate. Maybe worthy causes and jobs get more money. Awesome. Except you're either making it up as you go along dictatorially, or you have a code. If you have a code then persons who have the potential to accrue money will pay experts to explain just the right jobs and combinations of tasks to do to earn more money. This is what 'progressive' taxation is supposed to do. [EDIT: and it fails, in case you hadn't noticed]
 
Or, you know, you get a thriving black market economy. Or everyone with an ounce of ambition goes and lives somewhere else.
 
Or I guess you could build some sort of wall or minefield with barbed wire around your utopia to stop people leaving.

 

Right, right. I'm sure you guys are aware that that all sorts of arbitrary **** is already handled by committees, right? They aren't "people's" committees, true. They are "parliamentary"[1][2] committees, but they are committees all the same, so other than the obvious reference to revolutionary terrors, I'm not sure what your point is. Fun fact: in Europe, conservative and centre-right parties are usually named... the People's Party. Maybe the "1%er Party" and the "Lizard Overlords Party" were taken. I don't know.

 

Regardless, I still haven't seen either of you (or anyone else here for that matter) mention actual proposals and discuss them. I guess you guys just don't know. I'm sure you'll agree that dismissing stuff based on ignorance and prejudice isn't sensible, however.

 

See, other than the obvious slippery slope (regulation means dictatorship and that means genocide and camps!), the most glaring flaw in your stance is that you are forgetting that deregulation is what caused the 2008 cluster****. But it gets better, because economists are already warning that the 2008 fail was nothing compared to what will happen when (not if) the global financial derivatives market, which is currently at least 10 times the size of the world's GDP, collapses. Repeat, not if, but when. And that is just a portion of the make-believe global financial economy.

 

So, what do you want to do about it? Let me guess, nothing. Because it will sort itself out eventually, right? Only history suggests it won't, and it'll result in either massive bailouts whose cost will be assumed by the taxpayer* while execs continue to pocket nice bonuses, or a total crash that will make everyone equally miserable. Sounds familiar?

 

I don't care what other people earn. I care what that means for me.

 

It's funny, because I'm not even arguing for regulation. I hate regulation. Regulation means somebody's making them rules, and that somebody is 9 times out of 10 either exploiting the rules for himself or selling out to someone who does. But please, please don't make it look like that only happens in so-called "socialist" countries.

 

So, what do you want to do? Is anyone out there saying what you want to hear? Don't forget that,

 

 

If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal — Emma Goldman

 

 

 

 

*remember, as per your own admission, the super-rich don't pay taxes because fiscal engineering is a thing and they can afford to hire experts, or even outright buy MPs to write them some nice custom-made bills. So by taxpayer, we actually mean the poor and middle class.


Edited by 213374U, 06 May 2015 - 12:37 PM.

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#66
Zoraptor

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Really, you won't find a more arbitrary committee than the boards that make up most companies' ultimate form of governance and which set wages for their CEOs and the like.

 

Rich people, ex CEOs or aspiring CEOs themselves awarding each other 7-10 figure sums, bonuses and the like irrespective of whether they run their company- and the whole British economy- into the ground is pretty much the definition of arbitrary cronyism. We've got exactly the same problem here as in the UK and as was in Spain, our 'growth' is almost entirely based on a ludicrous housing bubble, encouraged by committees of rich people who stand to make profits from it. And what happens when the inevitable crash happens? Yep, privatise the profit, nationalise the losses, too big to fail etc etc.

 

It's funny really, having a committee of left wingers deciding anything is terrible stuff, a fundamental evil that is to be abhorred; right wingers setting salaries for themselves == awesome, the natural order and other committees of right wingers deciding that their buddies have to be saved by taxpayers from their mistakes and that there is, oh so unfortunately, no recourse available to allow the people who generated those debts to be punished or not get their bonuses- but that the guy working in a chippie  for 6.50 an hour is responsible for them instead- is also the natural order of things.

 

And it has to be that way because otherwise where will poor Mr Abramovich live? Surely you don't want him to be forced out of Belgravia by a crowd of plebs? Driven off, depressed and downcast in his last and least gold plated Phantom as he runs for the those last liberal bastions of... the UAE/ Qatar/ Saudi/ Singapore/ Kazakhstan to spend his days in the horrors of mere unparalleled luxury rather than unlimited luxury? Have you no shame, commie?


Edited by Zoraptor, 06 May 2015 - 02:34 PM.

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#67
BruceVC

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So all you boys that live in the UK can you tell us who you have decided to vote for?



#68
213374U

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You guys are going to love this one because The Reds Really Are Coming. Or as close as it gets in the 21st century, anyway. And I don't mean Liverpool.

 

Iceland proposes bill to abolish fractional reserve banking

 

My, what are private banks going to do without the power to create eleventy gajillion dollars out of thin air to receive interest payments from? However could they survive only by earning money from abusive commissions and fees? We must prevent this catastrophe. Quick, to the Cayman Islands Batcave!

 

Of course, it remains to be seen whether it'll pass and stick. But if it does there's a chance that other countries might try to copy the initiative. Including the UK which haven't yet relinquished control of their monetary policy instruments to the EU.


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#69
Nonek

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It would be interesting to see a party embrace a new take on the current system of unsustainable financial affairs, however due to the city being our largest source of income (and more importantly to them) funding and advisory positions for retiring MP's, I can't see any politician having the integrity to do so. Just as it took a Mrs Thatcher to thrust the city into the dominant position it now enjoys, i fear that it will take a similar iron willed individual to break that power and reorganise affairs for a more equitable and sustainable society.

 

I see no such candidate however, nor any bottom in the whole procession of clowns we see currently parading.



#70
BruceVC

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You guys are going to love this one because The Reds Really Are Coming. Or as close as it gets in the 21st century, anyway. And I don't mean Liverpool.

 

Iceland proposes bill to abolish fractional reserve banking

 

My, what are private banks going to do without the power to create eleventy gajillion dollars out of thin air to receive interest payments from? However could they survive only by earning money from abusive commissions and fees? We must prevent this catastrophe. Quick, to the Cayman Islands Batcave!

 

Of course, it remains to be seen whether it'll pass and stick. But if it does there's a chance that other countries might try to copy the initiative. Including the UK which haven't yet relinquished control of their monetary policy instruments to the EU.

 

2133 what type of government and or ideology do you support or believe in, I know you aren't crazy about the EU  but I am interested in your views?



#71
Monte Carlo

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So all you boys that live in the UK can you tell us who you have decided to vote for?

 

No. Mind your own business.


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#72
Walsingham

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Right, right. I'm sure you guys are aware that that all sorts of arbitrary **** is already handled by committees, right? They aren't "people's" committees, true. They are "parliamentary"[1][2] committees, but they are committees all the same, so other than the obvious reference to revolutionary terrors, I'm not sure what your point is. Fun fact: in Europe, conservative and centre-right parties are usually named... the People's Party. Maybe the "1%er Party" and the "Lizard Overlords Party" were taken. I don't know.

 

 

1) Committees -

 

You are correct that much government work is done by committees. A good example would be civilian oversight of the security services. Which of course I support.

 

If, like me, you actually observe the functioning of these committees then you'd have healthy skepticism of their capabilities. You wouldn't want one commanding how much money you are allowed to have. Because that means their oversight extends to everything. EVERYTHING.

 

2) The Crash (which you mention later) -

Was delivered by bankers, but engineered by politicians. Bad housing loans were not initially made as some sort of jolly wheeze. They were supposed to help honest poor folks get on the housing ladder. Once made they were traded as if completely sound because the government had instructed them to be treated as such. Yes some shockingly twisted and bizarre f***s were implicated in what happened later, which only made the situation worse. But at root this is like blaming the repo man for your mortgage foreclosure.

 

EDIT: Just to disprove the notion that nothing on the internet ever matters, I'm pleased to report that I have shifted my vote thanks to  this discussion.


Edited by Walsingham, 07 May 2015 - 12:00 AM.

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#73
BruceVC

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So all you boys that live in the UK can you tell us who you have decided to vote for?

 

No. Mind your own business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right, right. I'm sure you guys are aware that that all sorts of arbitrary **** is already handled by committees, right? They aren't "people's" committees, true. They are "parliamentary"[1][2] committees, but they are committees all the same, so other than the obvious reference to revolutionary terrors, I'm not sure what your point is. Fun fact: in Europe, conservative and centre-right parties are usually named... the People's Party. Maybe the "1%er Party" and the "Lizard Overlords Party" were taken. I don't know.

 

 

1) Committees -

 

You are correct that much government work is done by committees. A good example would be civilian oversight of the security services. Which of course I support.

 

If, like me, you actually observe the functioning of these committees then you'd have healthy skepticism of their capabilities. You wouldn't want one commanding how much money you are allowed to have. Because that means their oversight extends to everything. EVERYTHING.

 

2) The Crash (which you mention later) -

Was delivered by bankers, but engineered by politicians. Bad housing loans were not initially made as some sort of jolly wheeze. They were supposed to help honest poor folks get on the housing ladder. Once made they were traded as if completely sound because the government had instructed them to be treated as such. Yes some shockingly twisted and bizarre f***s were implicated in what happened later, which only made the situation worse. But at root this is like blaming the repo man for your mortgage foreclosure.

 

EDIT: Just to disprove the notion that nothing on the internet ever matters, I'm pleased to report that I have shifted my vote thanks to  this discussion.

 

I have to be honest I find it strange that you guys won't share what political party you are voting for ? Its not like we don't discuss everything else...you should be confidant enough in your decision to discuss and debate the party you chose ? Neither of you  strikes me as lacking in conviction and confidence around your political views so why the secrecy ? 



#74
Monte Carlo

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It's called a secret ballot for a reason. It's a pretty big deal in this country not to have to disclose who you voted for if you don't want to. And it's bad form to ask.

 

I hold centre-right, libertarian views. None of the parties represents me and I'm not minded to compromise. I voted this morning. Who it was for was based on a personal and perhaps not entirely rational set of factors I don't feel like sharing on the internet.

 

But the two main parties are like either cheek of the same arse.


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#75
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#76
BruceVC

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It's called a secret ballot for a reason. It's a pretty big deal in this country not to have to disclose who you voted for if you don't want to. And it's bad form to ask.

 

I hold centre-right, libertarian views. None of the parties represents me and I'm not minded to compromise. I voted this morning. Who it was for was based on a personal and perhaps not entirely rational set of factors I don't feel like sharing on the internet.

 

But the two main parties are like either cheek of the same arse.

 

I thought about it afterwards and I realized my question was a little rude and presumptuous. The English are more reserved about this type of thing, you guys aren't like the Americans and me who openly state who we will be voting for, so my bad  :blush:


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#77
Ineth

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You guys are going to love this one because The Reds Really Are Coming. [...]

 

Iceland proposes bill to abolish fractional reserve banking

 

"The Reds"?

 

It seems you don't realize that the harshest critics of fractional reserve banking, are Austrian School libertarians.

They believe that it's fraud and that it could not exist in a society with a minimalist government that respects property rights.

 

So yeah, abolishing it is not exactly the hallmark of Communism.


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#78
Walsingham

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Continuing the theme of me copying Monte, I agree. It is poor form to ask, even among friends.

 

I should apologise to Numbers for not having been clearer earlier. I know Miliband isn't one Beria short of a gulag. However, I do think there are a lot of things which many Britons would accept which abrogate their freedoms pretty seriously. Which _might_ be OK if I thought for one second that the intended benefits would be felt. They won't. You might as well try to legislate away ageing.

 

Further, I accept that there are some freaks in banking, and they get adulation and prizes. But can you honestly look at most big enterprises and say they aren't run by nutters? The trick is simply to enforce the laws which already exist, and to amp up the punishments. Destroying a pension scheme should not have a lower tariff than burning down a house or stealing some cars.


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#79
Walsingham

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Supplemental:

 

Muslim voters being told not to vote in London.

 

Londonistan indeed.



#80
Meshugger

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Supplemental:

 

Muslim voters being told not to vote in London.

 

Londonistan indeed.

 

Why do they even want to be in the UK  when they are not participating in what many consider one's civic duty + all those lose women, alcohol and bacon?


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