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UK election special

politics trolling alts United Kingdom

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#41
Monte Carlo

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Still, I'm not sure it's a good thing that major sociopolitical changes have been imposed by a determined, highly-positioned clique rather than by a mass uprising.

 

A fair point. I'm take a Hobbesian view of the world: I take the world as it is, not as I'd like it to be. This, I think, makes me a small 'c' conservative.

 

However, sociopolitical change by clique isn't necessarily a good thing. Then again, if that clique absorbs change by osmosis and implements it eventually anyway, albeit slowly (which is the British experience) then it's better than the alternative.

 

You see, every single violent uprising offering a Utopian alternative for 'The People' ends the same way. The Committee for Public Safety and Robespierre, The NKVD and Beria, the NSDAP and Himmler. Every. Single. One. Gulags and train tracks running into lonely woods. Whether it's students pulled from their beds in Chile or dissidents being jailed in China it's all the same in the end. It's as if ideological perfection needs the blood of heretics to function. I think the Left call this 'othering' which is ironic, given the political Left have 'othered' more people in Siberian prisons over the course of history than just about anybody else.

 

Which is why in an imperfect world a jaded conservative with a gut-belief in small government and self-reliance is less of a threat to his neighbour than a I-know-what's-best socialist who wants to distribute your wealth and re-educate you if you don't agree with their views.


Edited by Monte Carlo, 03 May 2015 - 10:13 PM.

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#42
Meshugger

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"ideological perfection needs the blood of heretics to function"

 

Sorry, i have to cut you off there, but that phrasing is metal as ****. The election may come and go and the results may vary, but so far, the sentence above makes it all worth it.



#43
Monte Carlo

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tumblr_m53xdcdCny1qjq4cp.gif

 

 

Hey thanks. Were I to re-write it on the second draft I'd probably replace 'needs' with 'demands.'


Edited by Monte Carlo, 03 May 2015 - 10:39 PM.

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#44
Walsingham

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Demand implies that they don't require it. I think your point is that they have to have it.

 

I'd echo your point and develop it slightly.

 

Change requires energy. Huge change requires greater energy. Energy is attractive. Purity is also attractive. Combine the two, and you have quite a hit.

 

Revolutionaries are just junkies. And all junkies hurt people.



#45
213374U

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You see, every single violent uprising offering a Utopian alternative for 'The People' ends the same way. The Committee for Public Safety and Robespierre, The NKVD and Beria, the NSDAP and Himmler. Every. Single. One. Gulags and train tracks running into lonely woods. Whether it's students pulled from their beds in Chile or dissidents being jailed in China it's all the same in the end. It's as if ideological perfection needs the blood of heretics to function. I think the Left call this 'othering' which is ironic, given the political Left have 'othered' more people in Siberian prisons over the course of history than just about anybody else.
 
Which is why in an imperfect world a jaded conservative with a gut-belief in small government and self-reliance is less of a threat to his neighbour than a I-know-what's-best socialist who wants to distribute your wealth and re-educate you if you don't agree with their views.

 

We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming to bring you a few facts that you'll most likely ignore anyway!

 

Well, yeah. The "left" murdered more people in Siberian prisons that anyone else because only the "left" could use the prisons in Siberia to murder people in. If, however, you are talking about genocide in general, your info is a bit out of date, I'm afraid. And, at any rate, more people died outside of the camps due to famine and disease, engineered or otherwise, than within. But do we really always have to end up comparing **** size? Jeez.

 

Regardless, it's at best disingenuous to continue to try and place Bolsheviks and Nazis in the normal left/right spectrum as they had more in common with each other, despite obvious differences, than they did with more moderate political alternatives (go go totalitarianism). Hello, this isn't 1920 anymore, maybe it's time to cut the Red scare tripe out. Ironically enough, the politics of inequality continue to create and nurture the fecal culture in which the bloody grassroots revolts you (rightly) fear are born.

 

The suggestion that wealth redistribution is somehow an exclusive practice of the political left is also pretty lol-worthy.


Edited by 213374U, 04 May 2015 - 04:47 AM.


#46
Monte Carlo

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Sorry if I moved your cheese, but I think my post was unambiguous in it's condemnation of authoritarians across the political spectrum. The Left does seem to enjoy something of a free pass for it's ideological peccadilloes vis-a-vis repression and murder, though, hence my comment.


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#47
Walsingham

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Hold on, Numbers. I know you're both man enough to speak yourselves, but be fair.

 

The point Monte's making is that for inexplicable reasons it is considered perfectly fine for Lefties to advocate criminalising owning stuff and locking people up for being enemies of the people.

 

The dictatorship of the proletariat is still a ****ing dictatorship.



#48
213374U

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Sorry if I moved your cheese, but I think my post was unambiguous in it's condemnation of authoritarians across the political spectrum. The Left does seem to enjoy something of a free pass for it's ideological peccadilloes vis-a-vis repression and murder, though, hence my comment.

 

Yeah, I saw that. However you couldn't resist taking a potshot at your friendly neighbourhood commissar (seriously, outside of philosophy and polsci undergrad circles, WHERE are these people?), hence my comment.

 

I don't really agree that "the left" (I guess you mean contemporary leftards) get a free pass. Left-leaning totalitarian regimes do enjoy the advantage of not having been utterly destroyed in a world war, so there's generally much less open debate and criticism going on in countries that suffered said regimes where their heirs are still directly in control. Other than that, I think just about anyone with half a working neuron outside of those countries will agree that statist genocide and oppression are bad, regardless of what banner you wrap it in. Using "the left" label to lump together everyone who isn't happy with the status quo and then pulling the Red scare card is just cheap, man.

 

Anyway, I thought this was about UK elections (a discussion I find way more interesting), and not a thinly veiled attempt to rehash the same old topics for the billionth time. Can we let old ghosts in the past and discuss the present situation instead? I understand if the left really are as pathetic in the UK as they are in my country you'd be right to point and laugh. You don't need to drag Uncle Joe out of his grave for that, right? Right?


Edited by 213374U, 04 May 2015 - 05:32 AM.


#49
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The point Monte's making is that for inexplicable reasons it is considered perfectly fine for Lefties to advocate criminalising owning stuff and locking people up for being enemies of the people.

 

The dictatorship of the proletariat is still a ****ing dictatorship.

 

I know the point he was making, but it's a specious point. The average "leftie" isn't for criminalization of private property and internment in camps anymore than the average "righty" is for the revival of a caucasian-centric Roman Empire and phrenology-enabled subjugation of "sub-humans".



#50
Monte Carlo

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I know the point he was making

 

 

Yet you still de-railed the thread more egregiously than I did, presumably because I pressed your ideological funny bone.

 

No, I don't think the mainstream centre left is about to build a Gulag in East Anglia. I do think, however, they are utterly capable of using the law to shut down debate about their pet concerns. I do think they care more about 'social justice' than freedom of speech. I do think they will import client voters from overseas. In fact, I know these things. I'm an evidence-based chap and I've lived through several centre left governments (in fact, as a small child, I remember the lights going out and bodies left unburied. The British left was still packed with fellow travellers with interesting off-duty links to Russian 'diplomats.').

 

This is what they call 'a direction of travel.' One only has to see the mob mentality of the Scottish National Party (nationalism and socialism smashed together, as if by some grotesquely political version of the large hadron collider) to see where it can all end up.

 

Gulags? No, unlikely. Soft authoritarianism, a sort of leftish McCarthyism? Absolutely.

 

I like reminding the Left of where they came from. Their political DNA is mired in blood in a way Western liberal conservatism manifestly is not.

 

 



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#51
213374U

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Yet you still de-railed the thread more egregiously than I did, presumably because I pressed your ideological funny bone.
 
No, I don't think the mainstream centre left is about to build a Gulag in East Anglia. I do think, however, they are utterly capable of using the law to shut down debate about their pet concerns. I do think they care more about 'social justice' than freedom of speech. I do think they will import client voters from overseas. In fact, I know these things. I'm an evidence-based chap and I've lived through several centre left governments (in fact, as a small child, I remember the lights going out and bodies left unburied. The British left was still packed with fellow travellers with interesting off-duty links to Russian 'diplomats.').
 
This is what they call 'a direction of travel.' One only has to see the mob mentality of the Scottish National Party (nationalism and socialism smashed together, as if by some grotesquely political version of the large hadron collider) to see where it can all end up.
 
Gulags? No, unlikely. Soft authoritarianism, a sort of leftish McCarthyism? Absolutely.
 
I like reminding the Left of where they came from. Their political DNA is mired in blood in a way Western liberal conservatism manifestly is not.

 

 

Funny that you mention an ideological funny bone when it was you who first linked, as is custom, the crimes of Soviet Russia with modern Western left politics. Because "political DNA". I have news for you mate, you share 35-60% of your genes with the common fly — how often do you find yourself sucking or wanting to suck crap? But then I'm "derailing" the thread by pointing out simple facts. My bad, I thought this thread was "UK election special", not "The Red Scare Special vol. MDLXXIII". I must have misread.

 

The whole thing is silly because modern Western pinkos are about as close to Marxism-Leninism as modern liberals are to John Stuart Mill. That is, not close at all. Facile appeals to emotion (fear), broad sweeping statements and mental shortcuts have exactly the same stifling effect on debate as using the law to suppress it. Arguably worse, because a top-down crackdown is much easier to recognize than the pitfalls of groupthink.

 

And what is this "importing client voters from overseas", exactly? You mean aliens? Can aliens vote in the UK? And this is wrong... why?


Edited by 213374U, 04 May 2015 - 08:50 AM.


#52
Nonek

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Well i'm decided!

 



#53
Monte Carlo

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And what is this "importing client voters from overseas", exactly? You mean aliens? Can aliens vote in the UK? And this is wrong... why?

 

 

I see where you're going with this and I'm not playing the game.

 

In 2004, when the UK could have put transitional controls on the new Eastern European entrants to the EU, the Labour Government chose not to. Edit - and by this I mean immigration into the UK and access to benefits - the most generous in the EU.

 

A man called Andrew Neather, who at that time was a political advisor to the government, let slip that this decision was partly down to "rub Conservatives' noses in diversity." This confirmed what many of us suspected, in that immigration results in votes for parties with lax immigration laws and generous welfare policies. The rotten boroughs of East London have been found to rely on the type of corruption typical in the Asian subcontinent.

 

Hey, have some evidence.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...london-32428648

 

I'm no racist. I think immigration, properly managed, is a Good Thing. In fact, as an economic liberal, I think freedom of movement of goods, labour and services is a no-brainer.

 

But Labour, our centre left party, have plenty of form when it comes to this. As does Mister Obama when it comes to Mexican immigration. It's always convenient when your big-hearted and generous policies also result in more votes, ain't it?


Edited by Monte Carlo, 04 May 2015 - 10:00 AM.

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#54
Zoraptor

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Monte, dear fellow, I think I'd take your prognostications a bit more seriously if you hadn't been going on about Cromwell being a man of parliament who fought for it and its existing powers for pages- when he actually left England as a hereditary dictatorship. He was also a mass murdering genocidal religious lunatic and a festering pustulent carbuncular boil on the flabby bottom of the human race but that's beside the point, ultimately he fought for and protected parliament about as much as Adolf Hitler fought for and protected the Reichstag, ie not really and certainly not in practice. And that's leaving out the taking the S & A in NSDAP seriously (really, why does no literalist ever expound the impeccable Democratic virtues of the DPRK or DDR?) when the first thing, near literally, that Hitler did in power was liquidate the socialist arm of his own party as well as any left leaning opposition. Cromwell apologists have a weird idea that he somehow 'accidentally' ended up as Fuhrer Generallissimo Il Duce 'Lord Protector' and that he was really just preserving existing power structures, much like he 'accidentally' killed a fair proportion of Ireland's population and 'accidentally' left his power to his son in his will. It's special pleading, and a particularly Special brand of it when coupled to the 'nothing really changed and it was not an actual revolution' spiel. It was and it did, it just didn't stick. Fortunately, because if there's one English leader who sits comfortably with the Stalins, Hitlers, Francos and Mussolinis of the world it's Oliver Cromwell.

 

(And to be factual about things, Churchill the great hero impeccably capitalist right wing, was responsible for a Bengal famine that killed 3 times as many people as Stalin's Gulag. And, of course, the EIC killed more Indians than Stalin's total, including a time they killed more than Stalin's total over a shorter period, all while- impeccably capitalistically- peddling drugs to China, as their workforce starved. So, can't vote for those rightards drug dealers who'll starve you do death in an opium farm, can't vote for those leftards who'll collectivise your arse- omg it's the Lib Dems Russell Brand is right!)


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#55
Nonek

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All I know is Cromwell knocked down my families ancestral castle, the bloody blaggard. Honestly it's embarasiing, all that's left is a long moss covered wall in a field. Then again I was never the biggest fan of Christmas.



#56
Walsingham

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I'd give an example of the kind of loose and dangerous thinking that Monte is talking about - I assume.

 

A colleague who is perfectly smart remarked that he thought the Left had some good ideas. I asked for an example, and he said "Well, some people earn far too much money."

 

I agreed that some people do earn a lot more money than they know what to do with. I know quite a few, and grew up with more, thanks to my education.

 

However, my questions to my colleague were:

 

- How much is too much money? Precisely how much.

- How would one calculate how much money was too much money? And what powers would regulating it entail?

- Would the approach be magisterial, or legal? If legal, then how would you handle persons able to spend money to hire experts to explain why the laws didn't apply in their special case?

- Who would you pick to adjudicate and enforce the system? _Is it because you like them personally, and what would happen to people who don't know them personally?_

 

 

I'll continue the point if anyone's interested.



#57
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I'd give an example of the kind of loose and dangerous thinking that Monte is talking about - I assume.

 

A colleague who is perfectly smart remarked that he thought the Left had some good ideas. I asked for an example, and he said "Well, some people earn far too much money."

 

I agreed that some people do earn a lot more money than they know what to do with. I know quite a few, and grew up with more, thanks to my education.

 

However, my questions to my colleague were:

 

- How much is too much money? Precisely how much.

- How would one calculate how much money was too much money? And what powers would regulating it entail?

- Would the approach be magisterial, or legal? If legal, then how would you handle persons able to spend money to hire experts to explain why the laws didn't apply in their special case?

- Who would you pick to adjudicate and enforce the system? _Is it because you like them personally, and what would happen to people who don't know them personally?_

 

 

I'll continue the point if anyone's interested.

 

It's just a 'populist' framing of the problem that is indeed somewhat unproductive. The actual problem should be framed in terms of wealth inequality. i.e That the current wealth inequality is to great and growing and that a smaller gap would be better for society. Note that this doesn't advocate a state of no wealth inequality.


Edited by butterfly, 06 May 2015 - 01:47 AM.


#58
Gorth

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I always thought Cromwell was Englands answer to Ayatollah Khomeini, wanting to turn England into a theocracy.

#59
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All I know is Cromwell knocked down my families ancestral castle, the bloody blaggard. Honestly it's embarasiing, all that's left is a long moss covered wall in a field. Then again I was never the biggest fan of Christmas.

 

Does your family still own the land? I say rebuild! If theres a position open in your staff, I would like to be the official make-sure-the-booze-isn't-poisoned guy. Oh, and Im going to need full benefits for myself and family. Tyvm.


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#60
obyknven

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What elections?

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