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[Class Build] Ranged Rogue PC Discussion (min/max)

Rogue Marksman Ranged Character Build Min/Max Player Character 1.05 POTD Buffs Discussion

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#21
Sanctuary

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I keep forgetting about Persistence.  Usually I either just ignore it or I end up getting it too late into the game, but I'm not actually sure which is better between it and Cloudpiercer.  You get 3 DR bypass and Jolting Touch on Cloudpiercer, but their base damage is extremely close, with Persistence being the faster of the two.  It also comes with the Reliable mod (20% grazes into hits) and x1.45 damage as well as Wounding, while Cloudpiercer has +4 accuracy and slightly more room to grow via extra mods.

 

 

 

Only reason so far i see for resolve is maxing Will when you already maxed INT to decrease chance you get mind controled and slaughter your backline

Don't you get a -25 accuracy penalty while charmed?  Besides, that much RES/INT is such a waste if you have a Cipher in the group anyway.  It's not like they don't have a gazillion ways to control you if you get charmed.


Edited by Sanctuary, 01 May 2015 - 07:05 PM.


#22
Kilrach

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You want people to chime in and the moment someone gives an extremely valid point but differing from yours, you condemn him to be a troll *claps hands*

I guess people wouldn't believe anything without proof.

 

You can go to our other thread: http://forums.obsidi...balance/page-14

 

From page 14 onwards, you can see Sanctuary's Rogue stats vs mine later on. Yes, 3 INT for me (:

 

@Looms: Those stats are spot-on, pretty much the same as mine except that my Res and Per are switched with yours. 16 Res is more than enough for most Res checks. You can buy a +2 Res ring later on for those that require 18 Res checks.

 

@Sanctuary: I really don't want to be your antangonist but I have to disagree again. Sure, it takes more micro to position your characters to receive the Minor Threat and Marking buffs but Marking contributes significantly to my later success in the game. In PotD, enemies don't tend to die fast. And I don't see the problem with a companion next to you? Also, the Paladin's Zealous aura also has a 3m range only, I don't see you mentioning that. That means both the pally and marking weapon user (assuming they are not the same person) have to be close to the rogue. And to think you accused me of being lazy and not optimizing my playstyle in the other thread - *rolls eyes*. Maybe you're the lazy non-optimizer consider you deem Marking as a useless mod? (:

 

With regards to race, I chose Wood Elf simply because I want to be one. I'm not that anal of a min/maxer. But from that viewpoint, my Elf has a 45% crit to hit with a Dire Blessing and Crit Focus (excluding Predatory weapons) - I personally think it's good enough. You gotta decide if 10% more crit or +5 accuracy is more important.

 

IMO, the main problem with your build (and Sanctuary's) is the weapon you both chose to use. I could be wrong though, but I love the weapon I'm using and my stats speaks for itself.

Since I'm not "allowed" to discuss because of my advocacy for min INT, that's all I guess (:


Edited by Kilrach, 01 May 2015 - 08:13 PM.


#23
Sanctuary

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Also, the Paladin's Zealous aura also has a 3m range only, I don't see you mentioning that. That means both the pally and marking weapon user (assuming they are not the same person) have to be close to the rogue. And to think you accused me of being lazy and not optimizing my playstyle in the other thread - *rolls eyes*. Maybe you're the lazy non-optimizer consider you deem Marking as a useless mod? (:
 

 

LMAO give me a break.

1. I didn't mention the Paladin, because I don't use them period.

2. There's a difference between being lazy with your group, in that you pretty much focus on buffing a single character at the cost of what the group as a whole can actually contribute and actually managing resources properly.  But what you're suggesting with that kind of micro every single encounter is not only the exteme opposite, it's borderline OCD and not even in the realm of fun at all.  In fact, it's not even necessary unless you're just trying to perform some scientific experiment with the game.

And Marking is a mostly useless mod.  The effect you think it has is pretty minimal compared to reality.  Unless of course you do actually spend that much time moving your ranged Rogue next to a melee character that has a Marking weapon (or you have the gun that does it) every single encounter.  If that's the case, then I guess have fun taking 60+ hours to finish the game.


Edited by Sanctuary, 01 May 2015 - 08:27 PM.


#24
Kilrach

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1. TS mentioned the Paladin as one of the companions to take, so shouldn't the discussion be centered around his thoughts? The world doesn't revolve around you.

 

2. I'm not sure if you're a terrible player or you don't know how to manage aggro. It only takes a few seconds to position your companions beforehand. Eder is the main tank and the Pallegina supports as off-tank if necessary. Thus all aggro is handled by both of them. Your rogue just stays behind and fire away with the marking weapon user already pre-positioned beside him. What's so hard about that? You do know you can use the Formations feature right?

 

And please enlighten me where all those single target buffs come from? Priest buffs are pretty much mostly AoE. Every buff for my rogue is a buff for everyone else as well. The last time I checked, the rest of the party also wield weapons too. As I look through Durance's spell list, the only single target buff I see is Champion's Boon (which I only just got it upon hitting lvl 9). I never once considered casting that buff as it's significantly inferior compared to Salvation of Time which increases the duration of all buffs for all allies - it's a no-brainer.

 

If you want to talk about self-buffing and inflating their own efficacy, Wizards DO have a ton of caster-only buffs no?

 

 

Of course I'm not gonna use my ranged rogue with a Marking melee weapon, that doesn't make any sense. You get the St. Garam's Spark fairly early into the game and the Pliambo per Casitàs later - both of them are firearms. If +10 accuracy is useless, then why bother taking WF and Marksman talents? Heck pick the Orlan instead since it's a no-brainer. Meanwhile, a Phantom with 90 def on PotD is laughing at your misses. Again, proving even further you know nothing about PotD. If you do, you'd realise how important the Paladin's aura really is.


Edited by Kilrach, 01 May 2015 - 10:20 PM.


#25
mahe4

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That doesn't sound right.

 

edit: Actually, just did a quick test against a group of Phantoms/Shades.  It seems like they can lose the debuff after a teleport or maybe there's even a chance that there's a check to have it reapplied after the initial attack landed.  I did however have the debuff last the entire 28s on one of them, with the Rogue hitting it multiple times.  Didn't really check on non teleporters yet, but I used to use that ability often, and it seemed to last forever on most enemies.

 

The debuff in general isn't just for Rogues though.  It removes 10 deflection.

i tested it myself on some xaurips...

it had a 38sec duration, and then after about 8 seconds, it disappeared...

seems like a bug to me, is there somewhere to look, which bugs are reported, so i don't report a bug a second time?



#26
dudex

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i also have flanking effect dissapearing early. Not sure what triggers or causes it.  I am sure it is not just because of phantoms/teleporting.


Edited by dudex, 02 May 2015 - 10:11 AM.


#27
Atchod

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Are people still trying to prove that there are better stats to max for DPS RANGED ROGUE than Might,Dex and INTELLECT , intellect is the only one that could theoretically add damage out from other 3 stats ( Con,Per,Res) , neither of those will increase your damage except INTELLECT might help you to keep debuff long enough on some enemy to finish it faster . It is very sad that this is the only discussion going on . 

@Looms : well what else would you take over intellect? Cons? Resolve ? you still can max Might Dex Int + Perception almost maxed (16-17 pts depending on race) some people seem just to hate the fact that physical dps could use intellect doesnt seem very rpg right ? 

 

 

Sure, it takes more micro to position your characters to receive the Minor Threat and Marking buffs but Marking contributes significantly to my later success in the game. In PotD, enemies don't tend to die fast. And I don't see the problem with a companion next to you? Also, the Paladin's Zealous aura also has a 3m range only, I don't see you mentioning that. That means both the pally and marking weapon user (assuming they are not the same person) have to be close to the rogue. And to think you accused me of being lazy and not optimizing my playstyle in the other thread - *rolls eyes*. Maybe you're the lazy non-optimizer consider you deem Marking as a useless mod? (:

 

With regards to race, I chose Wood Elf simply because I want to be one. I'm not that anal of a min/maxer. But from that viewpoint, my Elf has a 45% crit to hit with a Dire Blessing and Crit Focus (excluding Predatory weapons) - I personally think it's good enough. You gotta decide if 10% more crit or +5 accuracy is more important.

 

stupid INT discussion aside ( never asked anything about INT this is set in my build its 18 Intellect at lvl 1 ), i agree with most of your points Having to Micro Manage Marking and Minor Threat shouldn't be a problem , also for Race i alrdy did Wood Elf once maybe will just pick Orlan for the dialogue and some variety and Max crit in this build , imo 10 crit > 5 accuracy , but orlan gets worse starting stats so it makes them very even for me. , also you said 45% crit with wood elf in your build that is very nice what buffs were used for this ? 

 

About pally companion : its either Pallegina for crit aura while she would use guns or grieving mother(just being cipher good enough) using guns blunderbuss or two,seems i wont avoid Quick Switching this playtrough either .

What weapon would you go with ? Persistence? I am thinking to get Weapon Focus at lvl 12 so i might just use both Hunting Bow's and War Bows and see which will be better with the build . What would be your choice for Buffs(Inn's Courtesan's , God's Quest) trough out the game +Might ? or +Dex ? or Spread both evenly like 26~ might 26~ dex endgame ?


Edited by Atchod, 02 May 2015 - 02:04 PM.


#28
Kilrach

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I guess if you want to build a rogue with zero RP value then yes, INT would be better than nothing from a purely combat standpoint. Or if you're gonna build a companion who doesn't need any RP attributes. I picked Res because it's my first playthrough and I wanted that RP. My argument for not putting any points in INT is this: your rogue is gonna deal so much damage that a prolonged debuff on a SINGLE target doesn't really make sense. And that's assuming you party isn't focusing on the target as well - the mob will drop like a fly. Unless we're talking about trolls and ogres etc. but either way prolonged AoE debuffs (with the same high INT) however, are a rogue's wet dream. With a cipher and/or wizard, rogue's debuffs are just redundant.

 

But as I said, it's still better than nothing if you're not interested in RP.

 

 

Pallegina's aura also adds accuracy on top of crit - I'd say she's key personnel. I mentioned this in one of the more popular early ranged rogue threads. The choice I picked is the low-profile and severely underrated crossbows. I wasted a LOT of time using an arbalest before making the switch too. I never liked the idea of Quick Switch (from both a personal and RP perspective) as well so it has always been one weapon for me. It has the sweet spot of having the fastest reload of any reloading weapon while not having any -crit multiplier from an arbalest or -accuracy from a firearm. And like I said on the other thread, it can pretty much match the damage of an arbalest. Why? Because damage still has a range at the end of the day. That means an arblest has a higher CHANCE to dealing more damage than a xbow, albeit not consistenly. And since you'd be a crit monster, the bonus of not having the crit multiplier penalty matters a LOT more.

 

I personally tested out both xbows and arbalest too - the occasional higher damage doesn't warrant the slower reload speed of the arbalest. I have to repeat I wasted a lot of time using an arbalest - could have racked up a lot more damage. I guess the prone effect on crit was still okay. Anyhow, once you have access to the Exceptional Crossbow sold by the Dozens, buy it immediately, enchant it immediately. I didn't enchant it immediately - thinking it needed a lot of resources too. Oh well, the mistakes you make on a first playthrough. Do that and your numbers could very well be better than mine (:


Edited by Kilrach, 02 May 2015 - 07:47 PM.


#29
Kilrach

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Oh I haven't progressed that much - I mentioned I'm barely into Act 2. Only gotten Mericless Hand so far.

As for stats distribution, I'd say Might over Dex. I'm already shooting pretty fast imo with that kind of Dex.

 

The additional 20% crit is from the Priest's buff Dire Blessing


Edited by Kilrach, 02 May 2015 - 06:26 PM.


#30
MoxyWoo

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Peddroelm posted this in the testing thread, but the DoT interaction seems to be the same for INT on a rogue.   You actually get a bit more damage out of having lower INT basically unless you break like 22+ or something nutty with them vs 4.

 

Debuff wise... rogue make things dead as the "best" debuff.  Ranged rogue uses the initial alpha strike for the 2 second free sneak attack during combat usually, then uses their encounter like crippling strike.  YMMV but you might get an extra shot or 2 due to high INT during sneak attack, but in practical play... the trash mobs don't need it and 7 seconds (?) vs 13 (? been awhile since I played my rogue) was a non issue as hard fights, every attack = sneak attack anyway due to CC.



#31
Kilrach

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Peddroelm posted this in the testing thread, but the DoT interaction seems to be the same for INT on a rogue.   You actually get a bit more damage out of having lower INT basically unless you break like 22+ or something nutty with them vs 4.

 

Debuff wise... rogue make things dead as the "best" debuff.  Ranged rogue uses the initial alpha strike for the 2 second free sneak attack during combat usually, then uses their encounter like crippling strike.  YMMV but you might get an extra shot or 2 due to high INT during sneak attack, but in practical play... the trash mobs don't need it and 7 seconds (?) vs 13 (? been awhile since I played my rogue) was a non issue as hard fights, every attack = sneak attack anyway due to CC.

 

Yep exactly. One Chill Fog pretty much gives you a sneak attack galore.

Also, if you're using a reloading weapon like me, then the high INT debuffs matter a lot less. Just leave the CC to the CC classes.


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#32
Narla

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For choosing between perception and resolve, I just wanna point out that if you enjoy the talking to npcs minigame perception tends to have more interesting choices. Also watching my combat log a lot I am pretty sure I saw crits get a bonus to interrupts.



#33
Atchod

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As it was mentioned in OP , dialogue choices are lowest priority because :

1) differently from half of the posters here in this thread i finished this game twice on POTD(Custom Party)and up to act 3 on hard(with companions) on my first playtrough , Do you still think i give a **** about this awfully written dialogue :? No 

2)Might,Dex,Int maxed gives you ton of dialogue , i dont get this how saying "resolve good for dialogue options" is even a valid point to someone who played the game atleast once ? You get as much dialogue from Perception as from Resolve also Might Dex and Int is like 3/5 all of the dialogue options ( Constitution has like none ) , and dont forget that i am playing rogue and Resolve usually has a cheap ass score free way to solve things without any thought or trying i had this way when i played Paladin PC . Rogue is different and perception has some really interesting choices that suits the character assuming i gave any ****s about the dialogue which i really dont and its not like i wont have atleast 70% of dialogue options available anyway no matter what i build as long as i min/max.

 

Weapon Choice : Thinking now to use Cloud Piercer ( Borresaine as backup if i need to stun something ) and Persistance trough mid game and i will test which ones are better , also gona pick Weapon Focus as my last talent so there is some time to make decision while playing ) , thinking to drop idea of using Arbalest for alpha strike it slows the build actually i think but will test that out while playing .

 

Questions that Still remains :

 

Concentration + Will ( Resolve ) or Interrupts+Reflex ( Perception ) :

both Will and Reflex would be maxed if i chose their stat because Int and Dex who gives Will and Reflex are already maxed , will i ever use Concentration?

Ranged Rogue 12 M Range With Shadowing Beyond is kinda positioning GoD , so damage is really avoidable, also maxing Perception also gives reflex as i mentioned before and that with maxed reflex from dex would help alot to avoid AoE's that are only damage type that could hit rogue . Will - Always a decent choice , people who say having cipher means you dont need to worry about dominated chars simply are wrong , your char dominated+ cipher trying to undominate him is two dps'ers out of combat , meanwhile resisting that dominate in first place would be way better. 

 

What skills to go with at lvl 5 7 and 9 is a real choice :

 

at Level 5 and 7 there are 3 skills to go with and 2 of them can be taken and choice is between Deep Wounds , Finishing Blows , Blinding Strike on preliminary build i took out Blinding Strike simply because mage can aoe blind non stop and i think gona keep it that way .

At level 9 Choice is between 2 Per encounter Weakens and 1 Per Rest Death Blows setup, leaning towards 1 Per rest Fearsome strike as backup plan if i need to apply deathblows on someone instantly . 

 

Potions : 

Somewhere on forums i read that Eldircht Aim replaces Paladin/Priest accuracy buffs , soooo does Merciless Gaze potion replace paladin crit aura ? ( if potion replaces paladin crit aura i am not even considering taking pallegina anymore just gona go for Grieving mother after cipher nerfs she should be fine to play and not make the game to easy)  I Am going to use them potions on almost every fight every playtrough i had ended with huge surplus of ingredients and unused pots so this time i am just simply going to max survival and spam the pots every fight.

 

Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver :

 

Does these two talents stack ? one gives  0.3 Crit Dmg Multi and other gives 0.1 Crit DMG Multi , Does these stack between each other ? Will Azazalins Helmet stack with these(+0.1 Crit Dmg Multi Helmet from defiance bay) ?

 

Also those who havent finished your game yet for the first time .. seriously guys dont spoil yourself to the end in my thread i am clearly writing all the spoilers up to the very end game and you are better off to finish the game than to write random stuff that turns out to be false when you advance 2 hours into the game please ok ??? ty very much

 

 

Also : I Did some calculating for the endgame attributes should be something like this : 30 Might ( Hell yeh! race Hearth Orlan so thats +13 might up from 17 base) 22 Dex 21 PER ( If i am to choose leveling perception in the end and hearth orlan race ) 22 INT , Should be able to get arround 10~ CON also that doesnt matter at all tho so i didnt count that quite decent stats you still think i am gona lack dialogue options? thats like 3/4 of them right there . Cant wait to Crit with 30 Might Bloody Slaughter and Finishing Blow+Deathblow combo.

 

There is also a list of best in slot items that i found trough wiki but it might be inaccurate dont think PoE Wiki is finished yet :D


Edited by Atchod, 03 May 2015 - 11:57 AM.


#34
MoxyWoo

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I did this on my paladin so results may vary.

 

PoE seems to pull from the following sources in terms of stacking things.

 

-Weapon/Shield

-Equipment (armor, helm, gloves, cloak, rings, boots)

-Spells (this includes Zealous Auras. scrolls that mimic spells, and spellbinds that mimic spells)

-Chants

-Per encounter abilities like Holy Radiance

-Talents

-Class Talents

-Food

 

The highest from all categories will stack.  For example I can use a priest with Inspiring Radiance (encounter) and Zealous Focus (spell) fine.


Edited by MoxyWoo, 03 May 2015 - 03:00 PM.


#35
Atchod

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Sooooo what about those potions then ?

 

Edit : Do you mean that : Potion of Merciless Gaze mimics Merciless Gaze Wizard spell so it wont stack with Zealous Focus Aura cuz its a spell , or you mean that merciless gaze potion will stack with zealous focus aura because the crit part of zealous focus is actually a talent ? I am lost here . 


Edited by Atchod, 03 May 2015 - 04:14 PM.


#36
MoxyWoo

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https://forums.obsid...speed-by-frame/

 

On dex ^.

 

One of the reasons I like it so much more than other stats.

 

And yes.. it doesn't effect reload time afaik...  if you watch your party fire and use the same reload via guns... all of them are the same roughly despite say Durance having 9 dex vs your rogue having 20 dex, though my computer is old, so if Dex really effected it besides the fact my rogue started a little earlier, then it would be much more noticeable than virtually the same reload time.  (then again my computer is pretty old, so hard to tell a lot of things I noticed.)



#37
Kilrach

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Lol Atchod, you really need to get the stick out of your ass.

I'm 40 hours into the game and lvl 9 so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about (people speedrun the game in less than an hour, so does hours even mean anything?). And who the **** do you think you are that you deem people who hasn't complete the game to not know what they are talking or that they mind spoilers? Heck, you completed the game twice and you don't even know about Dire Blessing (just LOL). I KNOW things that you DON'T so don't give me or anyone else this holier-than-thou crap, this community doesn't need an attitude like yours.

 

I've already agreed that if you don't want Resolve as an RP, then I have no qualms about your max INT. Just move on and stop whining about it. My build already has max Perception and a tad lower Resolve. Ironically enough, your max INT has even more value for RP purposes than redundant single-target debuffs which are inferior to CC classes. Also, Wizards have AoE blind AND AoE hobble. I avoid damage even without Shadowing Beyond. Getting WF as your last talent? Good luck with that.

 

Keep thinking that the War Bow is the ultimate weapon choice - I'm sure it'll serve you well (:



#38
MoxyWoo

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Resolve is good for all characters because interrupts are annoying.

 

Even just moving and getting interrupted was pretty maddening to me when a tank gatherer was suddenly stopped from positioning or similar.

 

On ranged rogue with warbow.. I'm always conflicted for them. I don't wanna micro them like some people do as I view them as a low maintenance class, yet like the chunky number they produce with the within 2 seconds sneak attack from the heavy hitting, heavy reload weapons.



#39
Kilrach

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If you're referring to microing by quick switching multiple reload weapons, I don't do that. I never like the idea of quick switching from a RP, realism and gameplay perspective. The Gunner talent stacking with Kana's chant gives a crossbow user extremely fast reload times - you really only need one good xbow.



#40
MoxyWoo

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Yeah, that's usually what ended up happening.  Crossbow rogues with a crit focus was my first playthrough for the hired companion.  She was pretty cool, and one less character to tab too which was awesome to me then.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Rogue, Marksman, Ranged, Character Build, Min/Max, Player Character, 1.05, POTD, Buffs, Discussion

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