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Cipher can exit combat via charming.

 Yes, but I played solo Cipher though, and if  say you are fighting one creature and you charm it, then combat ends and so does the charm effect, putting you back in combat. You see this very clearly when Thaos dominates you and you run solo, the effect ends almost immediately if you do not have summons up. 

 

Edit: If I remember correctly however confusion persist when combat ends. So effects that can be used out of combat persist when combat ends, and effects like charm and dominate which can only be cast in combat do not persist when combat ends. So Tenacious Grasp might be your best friend in a Cipher run

Edited by Omnicron
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Cipher can exit combat via charming.

 Yes, but I played solo Cipher though, and if  say you are fighting one creature and you charm it, then combat ends and so does the charm effect, putting you back in combat. You see this very clearly when Thaos dominates you and you run solo, the effect ends almost immediately if you do not have summons up. 

 

 

So what you're saying is that a Cipher can't go for a low kill run because they won't be able to avoid combats with charm and dominate? I had hoped that I could just sneak up to a group, charm one and run by while they beat on each other.

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So what you're saying is that a Cipher can't go for a low kill run because they won't be able to avoid combats with charm and dominate? I had hoped that I could just sneak up to a group, charm one and run by while they beat on each other.

 

 

Hmmm... In that case the charmed creature has a good chance of dying which awards you the kill. In the cases where that is a viable strategy I have found that you are also likely to be able to sneak past with enough skill. Also, every character can use this strategy by using figurines without worrying about adding to their kill count. It will certainly help, but I do not see it working better than figurines, and I do not see how you are going to get out of some of the more tricky situations with that strategy. It will work ok, but there will be certain quests you will either have to avoid or choose to fight. 

 

I mean you will get pacifist easily, even less than 100 kills. Because you honestly can just sneak past most stuff and avoid entering combat altogether. Every class can do that since their specific talents do not come into play, only stealth skill. So play any class you would enjoy, have fun, and test and adapt tactics, but be aware that you will have to kill a few more than me :) 

 

PS. also bear in mind that you cannot charm and dominate from stealth, you can only confuse (tenacious grasp) 

Edited by Omnicron

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Ok I just did a run of Cliban Rilag with my new Char. 

 

I was not happy that I was unable to reproduce my previous success where I had 11 Stealth Total, so did not consider it legit. It is a stationary plant that detects you, had exact same results with no sporelings on the right side and was detected before I made it through.  On the rerun it was easy with 12 stealth & sugar (all three sporeling on right) and so I will stick to that and drop a point off mechanics (MOAR lockpicks are needed)

 

Current stats at Beginning of 8th Level: 4 Kills

 

Mechanics: 8 = 6 + 2 (Gloves of Mechanics)

Lore: 3 

Stealth: 12: 9 + 2 (Boots) + 1 (Resting Bonus)

 

Since the door needs 8 mechanics + 8 lockpicks and the sneaking past the plants needs 12 stealth, I do not know if you can avoid combat with other classes just due to the skills needed and the possible level you are here. It is easily solved by some skill enhancing scrolls, but I did not find any of those except as random loot :/ (Some confirmed locations for random spawns: Mechanics increase scroll on 2nd level of Doemenel 1st room in front of you, Lore increase scroll in Hadret House 2nd level room to far left, & Athletics scroll next to Lady Webb's bed)

 

You can safely swim out to the exit, much easier to sneak past the one mob as opposed to the 4 mobs you would have to do if you backtrack

Edited by Omnicron

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It would appear that if you have Boots of Speed and 12 Stealth and some scrolls, that you can complete the endless paths on a pacifist run without worrying about your kill count, only 18 in total, 19 if you kill the Dragon Hunter. It is also worth noting that you can get through 9 of the 15 levels without combat or shadowing beyond, just good stealth and speed. Not much in it in terms of items so it would be a bit pointless. I did not explore how accessible various treasures are but you will get the dragon's stash at least. 

 

50865xp before I started, 64467xp after helping the dragon, so about 14 000 xp in the run. 

 

Since I have bumped this thread with this post I'll also add a link to my class build for future readers interested in this achievement: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79761-12-kill-run-class-build-and-guide/

 

Here are my findings for the Endless Paths:

 

 

Levels:

1: 0 kills

2: 0 Kills

3: 0 Kills

4: 0 Kills

5: 1 Kill (Drake)

6: 2 Kills (2 Dargul in room across the bridge )

7: 0 Kills

8: 0 Kills

9: 0 Kills

10: 0 Kills (12 Stealth, boots of speed and sugar, and  understanding transitions is key)

11: 0 Kills

12: 0 Kills

13: 15 Kills ( So much fun! Cleared a room solo on level 11 PotD which I struggled with as a Party on Hard tongue.png)

14: 0 Kills (Resolve 20 and Int 17 Needed)

15: 0 Kills (Easy sneak and made a deal with the Dragon)

 

Getting from level 3-8 is definitively the hardest because of all the resources those levels need to get though, and you cannot use the main staircase on level 5.  

 

Levels you can bypass without Shadowing beyond, but up to 12 stealth, sugar, and boots of speed:

1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14

 

Some you needs less stealth, or as the case is in level 14 no stealth. Quite simple.

 

Levle 8: you will aggro the Vampyr on the throne when you go down, but just give them a summon and run away. Don't even need SB. 

 

Level 9: Got though the spiky room, and use sugar, fast boots and 12 speed. For getting past the Vithrack and the Spiders you need to get as close to the petrify trap as possible to disarm it halfway and and stick to the bottom wall of the passage.

 

Level 10. Same as 9 sugar et al. Shades in the 1st room wont detect you. The stairs are blocked by spiders but you can transition down without touching them. You just need to remember that you character takes a few steps while thhe screen fades to black so you need to give him/her the room to do that so you do not start combat. 

 

Level 11 is another master staircase :) I needed a mechanics scroll to get through. I know there is a spawn point for one in Doemenal Mansion on the second floor in the room right by the staircase. 

 

 

Levels you need Shadowing Beyond and a figurine pull.

 

4, 7, 12

 

Level 4 is a pain, and you need to get the seal in the room to the South. You probably will need escape, 2-3 Shadoing Beyonds, and a lot of figurines to pull, and any speed boosts you can make use of. Also helpful to boost Int. 

 

 

Level 7 you can de-activate every shrine and get the key, mostly just with stealth and fast boots. Earth blight room you need to use a figurine or a SB , and you cannot do the Rain Blight Room, which is fine because of SB down the the next level anyway and the spawn is not a problem. 

 

Levels that need combat:

 

5, 6, 13

 

Level 5 is pretty easy. do not wear boots of speed and then you can pull the drake away from the Xaruips into the little room next to the pool. You need to kill him for combat to end.

 

Level 6 is a pain as well. You can get the seal on the left by hugging the wall once you are in the room. The seal on the other side of the bridge I also doubt is possible with a full sneak, but observed that only 2 Dargul are in visual range of the one corner. Killed them and used SB to escape combat and sneaked back in. To go down you will need SB since putting the seals in the door breaks stealth (11 stealth needed)

 

Level 13 is pretty Straightforward. Killing animats in the room the the right is easy enough and then the ghost appears. Then using a figurine to extend combat and running to the room with all the Cean Gwla, cast confusion from stealth, use Adra Beetle and maelstrom. Spirit 2 appears. SB back to main door and make sure you have boots of speed and sugar and 12 stealth to go down to 14. 

Edited by Omnicron

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Edit: If I remember correctly however confusion persist when combat ends. So effects that can be used out of combat persist when combat ends, and effects like charm and dominate which can only be cast in combat do not persist when combat ends. So Tenacious Grasp might be your best friend in a Cipher run

I tried this again last night. Confusion does work well to get you out of combat, but it will increment your party kill count. It does not increment your personal kill count though. I was able to talk to the guy in the bear cave by confusing one baby bear, running and letting the others kill it. Then repeated with the other baby bear. At which point, I could approach the soul in stealth. After the convo, I confused the big bear and just ran towards the exit. Combat ended and I was good. So at that point I had 6 party kills, but only 3 personal kills.

 

I am going to keep going and see how low I can keep the personal kill count, while completing some quests that would have been impossible (for killing or for non-rogues). I know that, technically, you could party up and have your main never kill anything, but that's not the point. I am thinking that it may be possible to have as few as 7-12 personal kills depending on how many of the Glanfathans and Statues you kill. I'll keep you posted.

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I am going to keep going and see how low I can keep the personal kill count, while completing some quests that would have been impossible (for killing or for non-rogues). I know that, technically, you could party up and have your main never kill anything, but that's not the point. I am thinking that it may be possible to have as few as 7-12 personal kills depending on how many of the Glanfathans and Statues you kill. I'll keep you posted.

 

(grrr... cant edit my name out of that quote )

 

 It is currently not possible to finish with less than 12 even with a rogue :) (http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79761-12-kill-run-class-build-and-guide/)

 

But good job, let me know how it goes :) So your rules are Solo-Run and looking to keep personal kill count to a minimum? Sounds good :) And if you keep your party kills under 175 Steam will also recognize it ;)

Edited by Omnicron

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I'm running the GOG version, so no Steam achievements. Just doing this to see if it can be done.

 

I agree that no fewer than 12 enemies have to die. I am hoping that I can keep the character's kills to less than that number, but I am allowing for the party kill number to exceed that. For example, in my first try last night, Heodan killed the leader and I got the other 3, so that equals the 4 minimum total kills for that encounter, yet leaves my personal kill count at less than 4.

 

Fast forward to the bears, the only way I could see doing it with a Cipher was with friendly fire and confusion thinning the ranks. With two dead, I am now above the party minimum with 6 kills, but my personal record is still just 3. If I could keep Heodan alive a bit longer, I might even get that 3 down to something less.

 

I also tried a Priest for a bit and got the 4 down, but encountered a bug. Since you can't get the 2 stealth to get past the middle group after feeding Calisca to the bottom two, I decided to try getting Calisca to pull the bottom two to the the middle three and then back down over the bridge. With a Bridandine and a shield, she was able to survive long enough to do so, but the middle three came for my priest and broke me out of Withdraw somehow. I tried again but triggered the last group rather than just hiding in a corner. It worked and Heodan and I were able to make short work of those guys. But the cut scene wouldn't trigger. I also tried triggering the middle group at the last second by stealthing around the top and then triggering the conversation. If I fed Heodan to both groups, I could get past the horses and only be pursued by the middle three. A withdraw would usually (not always) reset the middle three. At which point, I could walk back to the arch by the horses and pull just two of the final 4 (usually the leader and one hunter). Problem here was that without Heodan I just got murdered by the leader. I am using your 14,10,16,4,16,18 array.

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Got some time for my priest playthrough. It is possible to complete Parable of Wael quite easily with 0 kills, or more like "with 0 kills" by pulling trolls and prgwas on the right of the thieves to kill the thieves. That enables you to get a nice +2 stealth/+1 perception hat allowing not to bother with cheesing the RNG for stealth boots with non Rogue classes + get some exp and nice loot. I used withdraw for the pull but unless you do both Pacifist & TCS it should be manageable with any class with some reloads.

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Ok, I have found some success. I got downstairs at Caed Nua by confusing a Phantom, running by and getting in the corner. Combat ended but conversation didn't start. I reloaded my save and she talked to me.

Inside%20Door_1.jpg

 

I was able to take down Maerwald through a progression of steps:

 

1) Sneak past the beetles to the looters.

2) TG a looter on the left, which pulls the middle looters to him, and aggros the right looters on you.

3) Run back past the beetles dragging the looters into them. 

4) Stand by the stairs until combat ends. This works to thin out the looters by the secret door into Maerwald's room.

5) Sneak back past the reset beetles and to the secret door in the looter room. You will be spotted if you only have 4 stealth (like I did), but as soon as the door opens, you cut to Maerwald.

6) Having autopause on combat here works well. As soon as combat begins, step back towards the looter room to get LOS and a pull on the remaining looters. Then take a beeline towards the previously locked door. Never stop moving or you will take a lot of damage. I barely made it out after taking a crippling blow xbow bolt and an autoattack from Maerwald. At this point the looters, blights and Maerwald duke it out. The looters were no match for Maerwald, but two of his blights did go down.

7) Step back just inside the door to regain Maerwald's attention.

8) Run back towards the beetle room. Try to time it so that you can draw the attention of the beetles just as Maerwald leashes and starts his slow walk back into the room. Get just past the fog of war and wait out the fight.

9) If there are any blights left over (I had one Flame), you will need to draw them out and have either the beetles or the spiders (either group) kill it to end combat.

 

Maerwald%20Down.jpg

 

Here are my stats to this point. Well over the rogue minimum party kills, but still at 3 personal kills.

 

Post%20Maerwald%20Party%20Kills.jpg

Post%20Maerwald%20Personal%20Kills.jpg

 

I think the Cipher can do this, but it's pretty darn hard. It's also RNG based, because if you miss a TG, and have nowhere to run, you have to reload a save.

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I'm still working on this, just not playing too regularly.

 

I got to Elm's Reach just now. Most of this is covered by your walkthrough, but a few things stood out to me.

 

  1. Getting Boots of Speed makes Cliaban Rialag trivial. I could only muster 11 stealth being a Cipher, but it didn't matter with +4 speed from boots and breakfast. I did get spotted by the Menpwygra before the spore room, but a quick TG and that was done. I was all concerned about the spore room, but I never dinged red on detection all the way to the stairs. Could of been way worse without the boots but I'm not gonna try it again.
  2. I was level 9 when I got to CB despite the guide saying it's a max of 8. I did complete a few quests that you didn't like Engwithan Scepter, rescuing the cook, and two bounties. I also accepted all quests and got them progressed to just before combat. One that stands out is the one with Cail the Silent. Just entering his cave gives almost 500 xp. I also got some small xp rewards from things that died to TG.
  3.  I was able to kill Sly Cyrdel and the Lurker thing with just TG. Basically, hit the boss with TG, throw up a wall of summons, but don't let them attack. Then repeat TG. Those two in particular have a large strong groups of guys, so there is plenty of DPS. I had to use a fig to draw them away to get the head, but that's still credit for me without a KB.
  4. I was able to use the Shades to kill the 5 skeletons in Heritage Hill, so, while a bit cheap, I didn't gain any personal kills. I'm still at 3 now and see now reason why that number will rise before I beat Thaos. Really hoping a statue lands a KB so I can finish with like 5. If I recall, I am at around 50 party kills so still a pacifist in my own way.
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I'm still working on this, just not playing too regularly.

 

I got to Elm's Reach just now. Most of this is covered by your walkthrough, but a few things stood out to me.

 

  1. Getting Boots of Speed makes Cliaban Rialag trivial. I could only muster 11 stealth being a Cipher, but it didn't matter with +4 speed from boots and breakfast. I did get spotted by the Menpwygra before the spore room, but a quick TG and that was done. I was all concerned about the spore room, but I never dinged red on detection all the way to the stairs. Could of been way worse without the boots but I'm not gonna try it again.
  2. I was level 9 when I got to CB despite the guide saying it's a max of 8. I did complete a few quests that you didn't like Engwithan Scepter, rescuing the cook, and two bounties. I also accepted all quests and got them progressed to just before combat. One that stands out is the one with Cail the Silent. Just entering his cave gives almost 500 xp. I also got some small xp rewards from things that died to TG.
  3.  I was able to kill Sly Cyrdel and the Lurker thing with just TG. Basically, hit the boss with TG, throw up a wall of summons, but don't let them attack. Then repeat TG. Those two in particular have a large strong groups of guys, so there is plenty of DPS. I had to use a fig to draw them away to get the head, but that's still credit for me without a KB.
  4. I was able to use the Shades to kill the 5 skeletons in Heritage Hill, so, while a bit cheap, I didn't gain any personal kills. I'm still at 3 now and see now reason why that number will rise before I beat Thaos. Really hoping a statue lands a KB so I can finish with like 5. If I recall, I am at around 50 party kills so still a pacifist in my own way.

 

 1. Where can you get boots of speed in act 2?

 

2 & 3. Well, that is no longer a minimum run then if you are doing bounties, it would defeat the point of my guide and goals to keep overall kills to minimum, so level 8 is still the max level for that area. I also do not think you would be get into the Cail the Silent cave without confusion or breaking stealth?

 

4. yeah it seems like you can finish the game by letting things kill each other then, which is interesting, some confusion scrolls for late game and you should be able to clear quite a lot that way  :p Not sure if you can kill the Headman like that, Thaos will heal him often, and if you hit him with any maelstrom damage you will get the kill. (It was interesting that I got to 13 kills after my first try because I Killed my own Adra beetle with Maelstrom and it counted...) 

 

 

An interesting thing I found with Cail the Silent yesterday. I positioned by party and sent my Ranger's bear in for the pull. But once conversation starts the bear runs back to the ranger, which means that once dialogue ends you are not in combat at all. Sneak back with my Cipher and Tenacious Grasp Cail and lol. 

Edited by Omnicron

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  1. Temple of Skaen on the 9th of the month.
  2. It still works with personal pacifism, if not party pacifism. It has always been my theory during this run to keep my character's hands clean, while letting other get them as dirty as they want.
  3. Scrolls of confusion may work if I am in a longer battle, but they're still combat only.

As an aside, I am kind of mad about the programming around getting an invitation. If you "kill" the merchant, "kill" koflcgwhatever, get the diamond and help the squad out in Dyrford, you sit at Champion (Overwhelmingly Positive) status. That should be enough, without having to kill Wenfield. But they force you to do so (I didn't), to progress that storyline. Either give less rep for other quests so you can't make Champion without that quest, or make that an alternate route to an invite.

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I got to the pit on the Burial Isle last night just to see that I could. Got there and out of combat and reloaded on old save cuz I wanted to check out Od Nua before going down.

 

1-3: Yawn.

4: Getting past the two squads of oozes near the way down was pretty hard. I ended up sneaking just past the first group before I was spotted and then running a diagonal to a little nook on the other side. This gets you engaged by just one troll and one swamp ooze from the second group. I then cast Ringleader on the ooze. It didn't always work, but when cast the ooze would move away from me and give me a free path to run to the stairs. I added the step of throwing out a summon  when I got close to the stairs and having it run back into the mobs to make sure none of them were still aggro'd on me outside of the FoW. Made it down and then forgot I had to get the seal. Oh well, gonna unlock the stairs on 5 and go back to three.

5: I went straight from the stairs to the blood pool. I Mind Plagued the first group (since they block the doorway), ran past them, aggro'd the group in the next room as I passed, avoided the traps in the third room and ran to the very back wall of the blood pool room. Worked pretty well, but a shaman didn't de-aggro the first time. Killing the Drake was pretty complicated without my character killing anyone. Steps as follows:

  • Run into room, start dialogue and run just inside the blood pool room
  • Summon shades and space them evenly across the doorway
  • Once Drake is in sight, cast ice bolts from each shade on Drake and hit the Drake with TG from Cipher. The shamans and maybe a skirmisher will start fighting the Drake, but most will fight the Shades.
  • Try to get off second round of icebolts, but your shade front line will start to collapse. Keep up TG on Drake
  • Retreat a little when down to one shade and prepare to summon Adra Beetle. Summon when they drop.
  • Use both electric AoE uses from the beetle. He should be more than tough enough to get them off and still be alive. This will kill most of the Xaurips and leave the Drake very hurt.
  • If beetle goes down be prepared with some other summon (wood beetles, delemgan, spiders, animat) to finish off the Drake
  • Distract any remaining Xaurips with summons or TG
  • I had 42 focus going into this fight, so 4 uses of TG. I did attack the Drake from range to keep my focus up. It may be possible to do this without any dps from the Cipher.

6: This level was made for Mind Plague. The seal on the left can be had with just stealth. The one on the right is trickier. I cast MP numerous times into the main room and on the rogue on the bridge to the right to thin out the ranks. That left just the rogue, wizard and gul across the bridge left. I was able to sneak over the bridge and into the room, but rather than wait to be spotted by the gul, I proactively TGed it. That left me able to run around it to the back of the room behind the table while the others duked it out. I was just past the FoW and I hit slow mode to catch the exact end of combat. That let me stealth, disarm the trap, grab the seal and get halfway across the bridge before getting spotted again. One TG was enough to get me back to the stairs and out of combat. Even though I was missing the last seal I took a look at the last room. I had pretty good success on one try by sneaking myself in a corner, hitting MP, throwing up a wall of summons and thinning out some guys (especially those by the door itself). In theory I would do the following:

  • Sneak to door room and hit MP or TG
  • Use summons to shield/distract and make sure the skeletons nearest the door go down
  • Once I am either low on focus or health, run out of the room and all of the way back to the stairs, resetting combat
  • Sneak back in the room and set the seals. With fewer mobs, I should be able to run out of the room and back to the stairs again once out of the dialogue.
  • With the door now open, I can just sneak down.

I will keep updating. It should go without saying at this point, but still at 3 personal kills.

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Got down to 13 last night.

 

6: I only needed to do the clear, run away and then sneak back. Once I got the seals in the door, I ran through and TGed a pursuer. I could then wait out combat and go down the stairs.

7: Go straight to the room with the door, hit mind plague on a Phantom and let it jump at least once to make sure all the enemies are occupied. You can then run around the fight to the door button, activate it in combat and then run through the door to the stairs. Easy.

8: Basically follow Omnicron's 12 kill strategy. Sneak to Fampyr lord, and accept his quest to kill other Fampyrs. This lets you sneak all the way to the bridge before combat starts. Then use a fig or a TG to occupy them and run across the bridge. Stairs just past that.

9: See 12 kill guide.

10: Pure sneaking, but a clarification from the 12 kill guide. You click the stairs icon before you even get to the spiders blocking the door. I didn't understand that at first and was only clicking it when I was in and amongst the spiders and that was dumb. After doing it, I understand what Omnicron meant.

11: Sneak and 11 mechanics (scroll helps). Easy.

12: I did this a little differently that the 12 kill guide, and I think I may regret it. I'll explain why later. Taking the path straight ahead, you encounter 3 Vithracks. I found it easiest to just face pull them and run back towards the door. Once they were close I used my last fig (delemgan) to draw their attention and run around them. Just past is a bridge of webs that you can cross to about mid-span and wait combat out. Now what I did differently. I used MP on the spiders just across the webs and that thinned the group down to 3 Crystal Eaters. At that point, I was able to sneak past them and all the way to the room with the aggressive Vithrack just before the stairs. An 18 resolve check will get him to back down by explaining you had to kill you way to this point, why can't you kill him too? ;) I then traveled to 13 at my leisure.

 

13: By the time I reached here, I had one camping supplies left and no figs. I think I will be better off reloading a save and talking to the Vithrack leader. That way I can rest and replenish supplies at the merchant. I was able to stealth and MP my way all the way to the small room with the Adra Fragment. That leaves me within striking range of the back room with the second spirit. I was just too tired to come up with a coherent strategy for this level last night, but here is what I'm thinking:

  • Reload save from 12 and get restocked by the Vithracks. This leaves me with 3 rounds of figurines (I have 5; should have bought spider).
  • Stealth and MP back to the Adra Fragment room. This lets me tackle the second room first, which will definitely be harder than the first. I need to get rid of the pather so I have a free path to run away from combat if things go poorly.
  • I am budgeting my initial round of figs and a second round after resting for this fight. 4 lightning AoEs from the Adra Beetle is going to be important for thinning out the Cean Gwla. 
  • After talking to the spirit, I will use a combination of stealth, MP and mad dashing to get back to the entrance.
  • At this point, I cross my fingers that my remaining resources plus one more rest is enough to kill the animats in the first room. Luckily they are weak to lightning so hopefully they beat each other down enough for the Adra Beetle to finish off a good chunk of them.

Will keep you posted. Still 3 kills.

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Ok finished. I gave up on Od Nua as I wasn't making much progress on Level 13. I had enough to level to 12 anyways so no big deal. A better player might give it a shot.

 

Here are some final screenshots:

Thaos%20down.jpg

Post%20Thaos%20Total%20Kills.jpg

Post%20Thaos%20Personal%20Kills.jpg

 

I got the 6 personal kills I though I would get. I am going to guess that you might be able to get this down to 4 if you get lucky and Heodan takes down 2 of the 4 glanfathans, and if you engage the two statues at once and get Thaos or the other statue to kill the Judge. As for the party kills, while still technically a Pacifist run, I would say half of these were from my unnecessary excursion into Od Nua. That said, I would call this more of a Black Widow run, than a Pacifist run. That being said I think you could do this run with 50-60 party kills. I am done though.

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  • 7 months later...

Im not sure if this was answered yet regarding the Thieves Letter in the Doemenel Quest Chain.

-I never did the warehouse

-First entering Defiance Bay, I did Temple Woedica, Hermitage Hill, Sanitorium, and Dyrford Ruins before heading to Lady Webb.

-From Lady Webb, went straight to House Doemenel, escorted to Abecan who sends me to fetch the letter.

-Upon entering I have a different dialogue option that says "Relax. Abecan Doemenel sent me, he wants the letter back."

-Then answering anything except "If you want to work for House Doemenel in the future, I suggest you make this easy." leads to a fight.  This is the only dialogue option that works.

Received Letter, no kills.

 

There is a Might Check in dialogue which leads to a fight.  Other than that I can not tell what else is the defining trigger for this other dialogue?

 

Hope this helps someone.

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