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Artaniss

Is stealth a waste of time investing in?

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Hey all brand new to game and was wondering as a rogue if stealth is waste of time? I am only level 2 but I get noticed all the time. Does it get better as you level? Also what should I put my first point in? Backstab maybe? Thanks...

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Not for Rogues. Stealth is really good for sneaking characters, but just remember that Mechanics is for detecting traps. 

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I generally get everyone stealth so that the whole party can sneak by encounters. Rogues don't use  it that differently then anyone else. If you want to backstab wait until the tanks engage the enemies then run in behind and stab stab. It isn't like other games where you want your Rogue to sneak up in stealth and start combat with his melee attack.

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 It isn't like other games where you want your Rogue to sneak up in stealth and start combat with his melee attack.

Well, it is if you want to use the Backstab ability. That requires you to be hiding or invisible. Sneak Attack, on the other hand, just requires the target to be flanked or have any one of a handful of status effects affecting it.

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Useful for positioning. Having it on your tank is really, really good. No-one else really needs it. Aside from Deflection and Movement Speed, Stealth is one of the best things a tank can have.
 

 

It isn't like other games where you want your Rogue to sneak up in stealth and start combat with his melee attack.

Well, it is if you want to use the Backstab ability. That requires you to be hiding or invisible. Sneak Attack, on the other hand, just requires the target to be flanked or have any one of a handful of status effects affecting it.

 


Why would you be backstabbing with melee weapons, though? If you initiate with your rogue, you're an idiot, and you deserve to have your leather-clad ass tied up in Engagement and die. And if you're ranged, you don't need nearly as much Stealth.

Edit: It should be said, though, that if someone does want to backstab in melee, you'll probably need a lot of Stealth at higher levels.

Edited by Luckmann

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Why would you be backstabbing with melee weapons, though? If you initiate with your rogue, you're an idiot, and you deserve to have your leather-clad ass tied up in Engagement and die. And if you're ranged, you don't need nearly as much Stealth.

 

Edit: It should be said, though, that if someone does want to backstab in melee, you'll probably need a lot of Stealth at higher levels.

Because backstab has range of 2 m, so you might as well use mele weapons. it also works only from stelth or invisibility. Since invisibility ability Shadowing Beyond is only 2 per encounter, and you can only stealth outside of combat you might as well

 

1. open with backstab from stealth

2. Shadowing Beyond letting your tank pick up engagement

3. backstab from invisibilty after all are engaged

4 repeat Shadowing Beyond and backstab for the 3rd time

 

edit: this is theorycrafting, since my rogue was ranged and i didnt take backstab

Edited by Khalid the bear

PIllars of eternty (Hard) 1st playtrough: 155h, 38 m (main Ranger with bear(bow), Eder, Durance(off tank), Hirvais(off tank), Kana(ranged), Aloth/GM)
PIllars of eternty (PtoD) 2nd playtrough: 88h 30 m (main Bleak Walker Paladin, Eder, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue (ranged) Cypher(wand)
(not counting reloads and experimenting)
status i love the game, hate the bugs, and wish for better AI and Pathfinding

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78749-needed-qualyty-of-life-improvements-information-and-transparency/

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Why would you be backstabbing with melee weapons, though? If you initiate with your rogue, you're an idiot, and you deserve to have your leather-clad ass tied up in Engagement and die. And if you're ranged, you don't need nearly as much Stealth.

 

Edit: It should be said, though, that if someone does want to backstab in melee, you'll probably need a lot of Stealth at higher levels.

Because backstab has range of 2 m, so you might as well use mele weapons. it also works only from stelth or invisibility. Since invisibility ability Shadowing Beyond is only 2 per encounter, and you can only stealth outside of combat you might as well

 

1. open with backstab from stealth

2. Shadowing Beyond letting your tank pick up engagement

3. backstab from invisibilty after all are engaged

4 repeat Shadowing Beyond and backstab for the 3rd time

 

edit: this is theorycrafting, since my rogue was ranged and i didnt take backstab

 

 

It is theorycrafting, because I'd like to see you pull that off consistently when taking enemy movement/your own movement, Engagement (which you'll near-instantly be in if you Engage them in melee) and recovery speed (the time it takes between your backstab and the time you can use Shadowing Beyond) into account.

 

I *can* see it being useful in situations where you can target an opponent inside the encounter but far away from other opponents, and you can be sure to kill them instantly - and let's be fair, Backstabs are quite powerful, so you will probably instantly kill a lot of opponents, especially when you become overleveled (which is easy). Also, Shadowing Beyond is 2 per rest.

 

But at that point, you still have to ask yourself.. why didn't I just shoot them in the head from a 2m range with a Pistol? No risk of engagement, a 2m head-start to run away, and high-damage impact, before switching over to your regular melee weapons.

 

For as long as Stealth is non-combat only and party-wide, I would never play a melee rogue taking Backstab and focusing on Stealth. However, taking Ruffian and Backstab could work out, because you shoot with the pistol and then switch to your sabre(s). But I haven't tried that.

Edited by Luckmann

t50aJUd.jpg

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Shadowing beyond is 2 per rest

i stand corected

 

 

 

Why would you be backstabbing with melee weapons, though? If you initiate with your rogue, you're an idiot, and you deserve to have your leather-clad ass tied up in Engagement and die. And if you're ranged, you don't need nearly as much Stealth.

 

Edit: It should be said, though, that if someone does want to backstab in melee, you'll probably need a lot of Stealth at higher levels.

 

It is theorycrafting, because I'd like to see you pull that off consistently

 

you asked why, i took a guess :)


PIllars of eternty (Hard) 1st playtrough: 155h, 38 m (main Ranger with bear(bow), Eder, Durance(off tank), Hirvais(off tank), Kana(ranged), Aloth/GM)
PIllars of eternty (PtoD) 2nd playtrough: 88h 30 m (main Bleak Walker Paladin, Eder, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue (ranged) Cypher(wand)
(not counting reloads and experimenting)
status i love the game, hate the bugs, and wish for better AI and Pathfinding

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78749-needed-qualyty-of-life-improvements-information-and-transparency/

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I rerolled my rogue when I found out that stealth is not individual... Backstab is almost useless with this design.

Wonder if they see it as something that has to be corrected or it is working as intended.

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I rerolled my rogue when I found out that stealth is not individual... Backstab is almost useless with this design.

Wonder if they see it as something that has to be corrected or it is working as intended.

 

There has been hints that they will attempt to fix it at some point, but that they couldn't do it before release, due to how states work in Unity. Basically, Non-Combat is one State, Combat is one State, and Stealth/Scouting is another.


t50aJUd.jpg

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I found mechanics to be the more important skill, since I play ranged rogues. I'm only just learning how to position my characters, that they get flanked bonusses and that the AOE spells hit home without damaging companions in the process.

 

But mechanics is vital for at least one character, since there are traps in the game that aren't even detected if your skill is too low.

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Stealth is very useful for planning encounters.  It's hard to sneak by most groups, but stealth can let you slip high dps melee like barbarians into a position to strike the back line at the start.  I wouldn't max it, but I'd say its worth getting some points in.

 

I'll probably try a "pacifist" run after my triple crown solo run.  That will take a lot of stealth.

Edited by anameforobsidian

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I've found that 2 ranks of Stealth party-wide are enough to get everybody into a useful first-strike position.  One character gets more than that, to get close enough to scout out enemy composition before falling back to the party.  My front-liners get a little more, too, just because they're the ones I want to get closest to the foe before initiating combat. 

 

If I wanted to sneak by more groups, I'd do invest more here, but, on a first playthrough, I'm too obsessive about finding all the cool loot and scouting items to risk not exploring every corner of the levels. 

Edited by Enoch
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Stealth is very useful for planning encounters.  It's hard to sneak by most groups, but stealth can let you slip high dps melee like barbarians into a position to strike the back line at the start.  I wouldn't max it, but I'd say its worth getting some points in.

 

I'll probably try a "pacifist" run after my triple crown solo run.  That will take a lot of stealth.

 

If there is a back line, I've found that I never need to sneak around to get to it. I just attack head on with my tank (4-5 ranks of Stealth) and keep whomever is going to strike at the back line to the side, and once combat starts, just circle up and attack them.


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The only time I found sneak useful out of combat, was to

raid the treasure trove guarded by the dragon in Hylea's Temple without having it turn hostile.

 

Edited by brionkj

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I rerolled my rogue when I found out that stealth is not individual... Backstab is almost useless with this design.

Wonder if they see it as something that has to be corrected or it is working as intended.

 

There has been hints that they will attempt to fix it at some point, but that they couldn't do it before release, due to how states work in Unity. Basically, Non-Combat is one State, Combat is one State, and Stealth/Scouting is another.

 

If this is a limitation of engine then fine, nothing they can do about it. Although as you said I saw somewhere, a conversation from beta duration that it was rather something which was quite a big change that would produce many bugs. It seemed like a they just didn't have time/resources to invest on that point.

 

Too bad that there is no, some kind of guideline for future patches.

General impression of what they would like to change/improve (if anyhing :p).  

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dodnt see the issue single/group stealth.

If you want to stealth with once character, why does it matter if other chars that are standing still are in stealth too?

in combat stealth, that i do miss


PIllars of eternty (Hard) 1st playtrough: 155h, 38 m (main Ranger with bear(bow), Eder, Durance(off tank), Hirvais(off tank), Kana(ranged), Aloth/GM)
PIllars of eternty (PtoD) 2nd playtrough: 88h 30 m (main Bleak Walker Paladin, Eder, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue (ranged) Cypher(wand)
(not counting reloads and experimenting)
status i love the game, hate the bugs, and wish for better AI and Pathfinding

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78749-needed-qualyty-of-life-improvements-information-and-transparency/

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or is it that when one character is 'seen/caught' all others are thrown out of stealth?


PIllars of eternty (Hard) 1st playtrough: 155h, 38 m (main Ranger with bear(bow), Eder, Durance(off tank), Hirvais(off tank), Kana(ranged), Aloth/GM)
PIllars of eternty (PtoD) 2nd playtrough: 88h 30 m (main Bleak Walker Paladin, Eder, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue (ranged) Cypher(wand)
(not counting reloads and experimenting)
status i love the game, hate the bugs, and wish for better AI and Pathfinding

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78749-needed-qualyty-of-life-improvements-information-and-transparency/

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or is it that when one character is 'seen/caught' all others are thrown out of stealth?

Yes, exactly like this.

Did you play POE at all? :p

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didnt use stealth much except for stealing


PIllars of eternty (Hard) 1st playtrough: 155h, 38 m (main Ranger with bear(bow), Eder, Durance(off tank), Hirvais(off tank), Kana(ranged), Aloth/GM)
PIllars of eternty (PtoD) 2nd playtrough: 88h 30 m (main Bleak Walker Paladin, Eder, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue (ranged) Cypher(wand)
(not counting reloads and experimenting)
status i love the game, hate the bugs, and wish for better AI and Pathfinding

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78749-needed-qualyty-of-life-improvements-information-and-transparency/

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Useful for positioning. Having it on your tank is really, really good. No-one else really needs it. Aside from Deflection and Movement Speed, Stealth is one of the best things a tank can have.

 

 

It isn't like other games where you want your Rogue to sneak up in stealth and start combat with his melee attack.

Well, it is if you want to use the Backstab ability. That requires you to be hiding or invisible. Sneak Attack, on the other hand, just requires the target to be flanked or have any one of a handful of status effects affecting it.

 

Why would you be backstabbing with melee weapons, though? If you initiate with your rogue, you're an idiot, and you deserve to have your leather-clad ass tied up in Engagement and die. And if you're ranged, you don't need nearly as much Stealth.

 

Edit: It should be said, though, that if someone does want to backstab in melee, you'll probably need a lot of Stealth at higher levels.

I was merely responding to the poster's comment because it seemed like they were confusing Sneak Attack and Backstab. I wasn't suggesting that melee backstab was a particularly good idea just that backstab requires stealth/invsibility, which requires the rogue to act first.

 

Now with that said, it might be interesting to play around with a rogue with backstab, high stealth, a boatload of deflection and riposte. If things get bad, pop a invisibility or cast withdrawal

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dodnt see the issue single/group stealth.

 

If you want to stealth with once character, why does it matter if other chars that are standing still are in stealth too?

 

in combat stealth, that i do miss

or is it that when one character is 'seen/caught' all others are thrown out of stealth?

It's really one thing. The issue comes down to the fact that when one character is discovered, everyone gets forced out of Stealth. The fact that everyone stealths at the same time, I don't think anyone actually cares about, but you can't have one without the other - if you were not forced out of Stealth when combat starts, but only the one that was discovered, you wouldn't have party Stealth anymore, you'd have individual Stealth.

 

didnt use stealth much except for stealing

Part of the reason for that is probably that Stealth is only really used for stealing and, strangely, detection (which, even stranger, is based on Mechanics). Even if you wanted to do more Stealthing, you probably wouldn't, because it's terrible, and if you just don't like that style of play, it doesn't really concern you.

 

But for those that enjoy the tactical applications of Stealth, the way it works in PoE is nothing short of a travesty. The funny thing is that a lot of people (me included) still Stealth everywhere, because you need to Stealth to detect secrets, but never use it for the things you'd think Stealth would be used for.


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I use stealth primarily the same way Luckman does for strategic reasons to find hidden objects which as he says depend on mechanics to find.  ???  Of all the things in PoE this is the one I would want changed.  It also handy for getting close to enemies so as recommended give you front line folk some stealth skills.  

 

By the way bears make good stealth scouts and so does Sagini's fox.  Not sure about the other ranger animals.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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