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I would prefer some type of mana for spell casters instead of the per-turn/ per/rest system......

 

Thoughts?

Go play Dragon Age? This was intentionally and explicitly not using the mana/cooldown system by design.

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

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Ciphers use the mana system. Part of why they are such a powerful class. But to use that system for the other casters...I enjoy the system being different from dragon age. I don't view one as better then the other, just different.

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Per turn systems are easy to balance, but are often unimpressive due to their guaranteed occurrence. Mana systems can be arranged such that they operate on the same power curve as a memorization system. Replenishment can come exclusively through resting like a vancian style system, or it can be augmented with regeneration and potions. Mana systems generally make things very convenient for both the player and the developer. The problem with mana systems, is that it often results in generic, unimaginative, and mediocre spells. Before the Altar of Balance, developers sacrifice any spell concept with any wonder due to how easily mana systems can be taken advantage of by the player.

 

This is my main argument for advocating memorization mechanics. Being able to cast it only once per adventuring day means that your spells need to matter. They should turn tides and overcome otherwise impossible obstacles. Memorization systems allows magic to be magical. This has been forgotten in the modern age. The Altar of Balance has crushed this, and reduced it to glorified ranged DPS. Flip through an old D&D (particularly pre-3.0 Edition) manual and see the incredible, imaginative, and useful spells those books had. Baldur's Gate 2 came closer than anyone to capturing the magic. My hopes that PoE would rebirth that legacy were dashed very early in development unfortunately.

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Ciphers use the mana system. Part of why they are such a powerful class. But to use that system for the other casters...I enjoy the system being different from dragon age. I don't view one as better then the other, just different.

They get mana from SHOOTING PEOPLE IN THE FACE. 

 

It's ****ing awesome, is what it is.  :biggrin:

 

PoE mana > other games' mana 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

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With the system PoE uses you get a certain number of spells per rest and per encounter. You can choose four different spells for a wizard per spell level.      You can also use scrolls based on your lore level.  You also have talents.  I feel the system works very well.

 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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The Cipher's Focus does feel a bit like mana - whereby they have a natural, always-on "mana leech." Having one chr. like that and no other feels a bit odd/imbalanced design wise, but whatever. If you like that type of style, Cipher is the one to pick.

 

I neither miss nor dislike not having "mana."  In the end it all achieves the same thing - a limitation on spells cast before renewal of some sort. Instead of running out of mana and drinking pots (or something) you have to rest. What I do miss (in general gaming, not just Pillars) is the eventual powerful mage. It may be better for balance and sometimes makes for better gameplay, no doubt/no argument, but all the mage-gimping over the years sometimes gets kinda boring.  :)

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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Well I can't say I miss mana because it is in every single game :p

 

Seriously now, I too believe resource mechanics are better than per whatever uses, but I also believe they made it right in Pillars. I like the strategy of reserving your best abilities till tougher battles. It is not frustrating as Bladur's Gate or Icewind Dale, so I see it as a new (and successful) take to that old system.

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With the system PoE uses you get a certain number of spells per rest and per encounter. You can choose four different spells for a wizard per spell level.      You can also use scrolls based on your lore level.  You also have talents.  I feel the system works very well.

A lot like the old D&D really. I recall playing a lowly wizard and after casting one or two magic missiles just tossing darts for the rest of the adventure. Good times.

Edited by LeBurns
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Since when has there been mana in IE games?

 

Since never.

 

OP: You can't miss something that was never there. They clearly advertised this game as homage to the cRPGs of old. Cast # has always been part of that system rather than mana. I used to hate it too, because I had come from games like Ultima Underworld and Might & Magic where mana was very much a thing. I also used to hate THAC0 scores and Armor Class before I understood how they worked. Once you figure things out, it isn't that much of a hindrance. It's actually quite fun to have to make strategic what spells might be important on your next journey.

 

It's part of the genre. Criticizing it is a bit like criticizing an RTS for not being first person. 

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Ciphers use the mana system. Part of why they are such a powerful class. But to use that system for the other casters...I enjoy the system being different from dragon age. I don't view one as better then the other, just different.

They get mana from SHOOTING PEOPLE IN THE FACE. 

 

It's ****ing awesome, is what it is.  :biggrin:

 

PoE mana > other games' mana 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

 

 

The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one. LOL. 

"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit."

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The Cipher's Focus does feel a bit like mana - whereby they have a natural, always-on "mana leech."

It reminds me of "stunt" rules from PnP games, where you get points for being awesome. Do an awesome thing, get some points. Spend some points, use a superpower.

 

The other thing it brings to mind is Ys: Memories of Celceta, an action game which uses a two-tiered system of the same type. Regular attacks generate mana for skills. Skills build up your super meter.

 

I love that kind of thing, where taking one action builds up your ability to take other actions. It results in very dynamic play, where you utilize every trick the character has available to them, and it gives play a rhythm of sorts.

 

I do like spell level/memorization systems, but I could stand to see them use this sort of action progression in combination with it - perhaps taking inspiration from D&D's Crusader class,

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If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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The cipher ability is the ability to manipulate other minds with your mind and reminds me of ESP.  As long as you can keep the cipher's endurance up he or she can do this manipulation.  I didn't even think of mana when I first saw it described.

 

When the magic system was first discussed in the Kickstarter the majority of posters were against the mana system and wanted something that more nearly resembled the D&D rest system.

 

As has been already said "You can't miss something that was never there".  Maybe those who did not play the IE games can miss mana but not those who did play them and were fans of them.

 

edit: The Online dictionary defines mana as "a generalized, supernatural force or power, which may be concentrated in objects or persons."  

Edited by Nakia
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 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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This is my main argument for advocating memorization mechanics. Being able to cast it only once per adventuring day means that your spells need to matter. They should turn tides and overcome otherwise impossible obstacles. Memorization systems allows magic to be magical. This has been forgotten in the modern age. The Altar of Balance has crushed this, and reduced it to glorified ranged DPS. Flip through an old D&D (particularly pre-3.0 Edition) manual and see the incredible, imaginative, and useful spells those books had. Baldur's Gate 2 came closer than anyone to capturing the magic. My hopes that PoE would rebirth that legacy were dashed very early in development unfortunately.

To be fair though, the truly magical D&D spells were mostly at high levels whereas PoE is a relatively low-level adventure. Given how much effort they are putting into trying to balance the game, wouldn't hold my breath for high-level stuff like Time Stop and Wish in the expansion or sequels, but PoE does have the typical mid-level spells that inflict nasty status effects like Confusion and Petrification (the Druid version of the latter is particularly deadly since it targets Reflex).

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Maybe they could (have) tied magic to endurance someway?

 

The guaranteed per encounter is to easy IMHO, especially since there is a bad guy around every corner.

Gaming is interactive...watching TV ..not so much.

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I don't mind the current system, but I don't see the point of spells being per rest, it's annoying have to constantly go back just because you want to destroy every enemy in your path.

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Despite what I may post, I'm a huge fan of Pillars of Eternity, it's one of my favorite RPG's.

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I don't mind the current system, but I don't see the point of spells being per rest, it's annoying have to constantly go back just because you want to destroy every enemy in your path.

 

Except you don't.

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I would prefer some type of mana for spell casters instead of the per-turn/ per/rest system......

 

Thoughts?

I agree. I've enjoyed both games with mana systems and games with memorization systems, but I tend to prefer mana systems (preferably without potions, or with potions being rare).

 

Dragon Age: Origins and Aarklash: Legacy use mana systems, and both have better combat than Pillars of Eternity imo.

 

The ship has sailed for PoE tho, and the most we can reasonably hope for are improvements to its current system.

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