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Ineth

Why didn't Eothas *say* something? [endgame spoilers]

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So if I understand the endgame revelations correctly, things went down like this:

  • Thaos (Woedica's favored) steals Dyrwoodan souls in order to restore Woedica's power.
  • Eothas figures it out, incarnates as St. Waidwen, gathers an army in Readceras, and marches towards Dyrwood to stop Woedica's plan.
  • However, the Dyrwoodans think that Eothas has just gone crazy, and apparently so does Magran because she helps them build the Godhammer.
  • Dyrwoodans use the Godhammer to blow up Eothas; Woedica's plan proceeds unhindered (until the protagonist enters the picture).

So I wonder, why did Eothas act so foolishly? Like he has the worst communication skills ever?

 

I mean, he could have easily told Magran and the other non-evil gods: "Hey, I figured out this evil plan by Woedica - let's do something about it together!"

 

Or he could have told the Dyrwoodans: "Hey, I don't actually want to murder/enslave you all, I'm just after Thaos! So chill out, and don't blow me up when I arrive, okay?"

 

But nope, he thought saying nothing and instead raising an army and marching towards Defiance Bay as a mad conqueror was the smart way to handle the situation?

 

Is this a huge plot hole, or am I missing something vital?

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"Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell

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We still don't know for certain if Waidwen=Eothas, or if Eothas really was doing it all to stop Woedica. 

 

But presuming it's all true: when you ask some of the Gods why they need you to do anything and why they can't get off their arse and stop Thaos, they reply, there is a pact that governs the Gods and how they cannot interfere directly - a pact that Woedica herself has barely kept. 

 

It is, in fact, probably the same kind of plot conceit used in Forgotten Realms and specifically the Bhaalspawn Trilogy, where Cyric would love to kill all you stupid Bhaalspawn but he can't, and Bhaal was exploiting that precise rule with his spawns in the first place. Woedica has used Thaos and stayed in the shadows to circumvent the rule, and presumably, Eothas, if he used Waidwen, was trying to do the same.

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I mean, he could have easily told Magran and the other non-evil gods: "Hey, I figured out this evil plan by Woedica - let's do something about it together!"

 

No, Margan was in alliance with Woedica. It is not 100% but very possble. See Galawain quest and speak with Durance after it. 

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Woedica has used Thaos 

Or Thaos has used Woedica=) I though Thaos was person who creted Gods.

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There's an in-game book called The Great Stag (or something like that). Reading it makes me think that a great deal of Eothas/Waidwen's actions were intentional and that events are still unfolding according to his plan.

 

I'll be very surprised if we don't here more from him in expansions/sequels.

 

I'll go one step further and hypothesize that one or more of the gods don't agree with what the Engwithans did and may be sympathetic to Iovara's cause.

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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I mean, he could have easily told Magran and the other non-evil gods: "Hey, I figured out this evil plan by Woedica - let's do something about it together!"

 

No, Margan was in alliance with Woedica. It is not 100% but very possble. See Galawain quest and speak with Durance after it. 

 

 

Makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider that Eothas may have not invaded Dyrwood first but was in fact the one invaded.

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Well, notwithstanding that Eothas' motivations are still pure speculation...

1. Gods probably feel entitled to be obeyed without having to explain themselves.
2. The other gods probably didn't see sufficient reason or justification to act. Even at the critical moment, their involvement is indirect. Aside from Eothas, only Hylea and Berath have a direct interest in the Hollowborn crisis. For all we know, Eothas did seek their help and was rebuffed much like the Watcher (though probably even moreso, given that he had less proof of Thaos' agenda)
3. Granted that he is a god, but he is trying to prevent a crisis that hasn't happened yet. People who want a reason to disbelieve could just say he was a really powerful Godlike.
4. It's sort of hard to explain the problem without damaging the idea of the gods as divine (why would a Creator of the Universe need to steal babies' souls?). Eothas might have been a loose cannon, but he wasn't that far gone.

Now, the Glanfathans are big on the gods and on keeping people from misuing the Engwithan tech, so it might have made more sense for Eothas to create an order of Paladins to protect the Engwithan ruins from LK interference, possibly even using their tech to better carry out this mission. Although maybe I just want to play as a member of the Eoran Knights Templar/Brotherhood of Steel.
 

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There's an in-game book called The Great Stag (or something like that). Reading it makes me think that a great deal of Eothas/Waidwen's actions were intentional and that events are still unfolding according to his plan.

 

You mean this one?

 

fkk6Opd.png

O6yPR7b.png

eRCwVU2.png

QOLnO50.png

MULtEel.png

nIXmmzU.png

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"Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell

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So if I understand the endgame revelations correctly, things went down like this:

  • Thaos (Woedica's favored) steals Dyrwoodan souls in order to restore Woedica's power.
  • Eothas figures it out, incarnates as St. Waidwen, gathers an army in Readceras, and marches towards Dyrwood to stop Woedica's plan.
  • However, the Dyrwoodans think that Eothas has just gone crazy, and apparently so does Magran because she helps them build the Godhammer.
  • Dyrwoodans use the Godhammer to blow up Eothas; Woedica's plan proceeds unhindered (until the protagonist enters the picture).

So I wonder, why did Eothas act so foolishly? Like he has the worst communication skills ever?

 

I mean, he could have easily told Magran and the other non-evil gods: "Hey, I figured out this evil plan by Woedica - let's do something about it together!"

 

Or he could have told the Dyrwoodans: "Hey, I don't actually want to murder/enslave you all, I'm just after Thaos! So chill out, and don't blow me up when I arrive, okay?"

 

But nope, he thought saying nothing and instead raising an army and marching towards Defiance Bay as a mad conqueror was the smart way to handle the situation?

 

Is this a huge plot hole, or am I missing something vital?

 

Wrong order. Waidwen marched on the Dyrwood BEFORE souls began to disappear, presumably to stop Woedica's plot before it began. But it could also be that he marched on the Dyrwood to prohibit animancy - something no other gods except Woedica would bother to do.

 

I believe Eothas sympathized with Woedica's goals but was not allied with her personally, and that he wanted to stop animancy, leaving no need for Thaos' plans. Magran disagreed with Eothas' meddling and helped kill Waidwen/Eothas. However, this ended up leaving the field free for Thaos. Naturally, Magran wanted to discourage humans from inventing the powers needed to kill gods, so she killed all the Godhammer engineers (except for Durance), and possibly sat in silence when Thaos started Waidwen's Legacy.

 

There's an in-game book called The Great Stag (or something like that). Reading it makes me think that a great deal of Eothas/Waidwen's actions were intentional and that events are still unfolding according to his plan.

 

I'll be very surprised if we don't here more from him in expansions/sequels.

 

I'll go one step further and hypothesize that one or more of the gods don't agree with what the Engwithans did and may be sympathetic to Iovara's cause.

 

Yep, not sure if they agree 100% with Iovara but they sympathize with her.

 

 

Woedica has used Thaos 

Or Thaos has used Woedica=) I though Thaos was person who creted Gods.

 

Yup.


"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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I'll go one step further and hypothesize that one or more of the gods don't agree with what the Engwithans did and may be sympathetic to Iovara's cause.

 

Yep, not sure if they agree 100% with Iovara but they sympathize with her.

 

Which ones?


"Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell

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Woedica has used Thaos 

Or Thaos has used Woedica=) I though Thaos was person who creted Gods.

 

 

I don't know if that's entirely the case. Thaos was certainly involved in their creation, but we're talking about a project that consumed the resources of an entire civilization, down to their very souls, to create artificial gods. Even the Dwemer couldn't pull that off properly.

 

There were probably thousands of leaders, philosophers, animancers, and laborers involved. Maybe there's better evidence one way or the other somewhere that I missed, but he doesn't exactly strike me as the Adrian Veidt in this situation, more like the ruthless enforcer.

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Yeah, Thaos is probably the one entrusted with the mission, an important figure but not necessarily the single mastermind. It certainly seems true that he sees himself as one of the faithful rather than the Godmaker.

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There's an in-game book called The Great Stag (or something like that). Reading it makes me think that a great deal of Eothas/Waidwen's actions were intentional and that events are still unfolding according to his plan.

 

You mean this one?

 

fkk6Opd.png

O6yPR7b.png

eRCwVU2.png

QOLnO50.png

MULtEel.png

nIXmmzU.png

 

 

You could probably see foreshadowing there if you wanted to. Scattered light ("Scattered God" of light) features prominently, then it devolves into a discussion of how mortals can't hunt or kill something insubstantial (e.g., the gods as experienced in PoE) but could possibly surprise the gods and kill a flesh and blood being imbued with divine power to the point of theoretical invincibility (e.g. Saint Waidwen). Then, this is immediately followed with the idea that doing so would result in divine power being transferred to mortals as a boon.

 

Eothas is, of course, the god of dawn, rebirth, and redemption. His remaining followers are called the Night Market (IIRC from the ending slides), and dawn follows the night. Maybe he tucked away the lion's share of his power into his followers' souls or even just random souls (possibly even subverted the Godhammer to this end somehow), and intends to pull a Bhaal later on. Or, maybe something less evil, like a sort of democratic theocracy, where every person has a little divine spark. They definitely left enough clues around to justify bringing him back, but they could just as easily leave him dead.

 

If he is indeed pulling an Andy Kaufman, it would be interesting if his little comeback scheme was the reason that Durance didn't die in the blast and his soul can't be perceived by Magran. Wouldn't be the first time a guy who used to dedicate himself to hunting down a god's followers ended up serving that same god.

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@Ineth - yes, that's it.

 

He is the god of rebirth and Eder mentions that he liked Eothas because he seemed to be the one who looked out for kith the most. The beginning of the game (sudden illness, tree blocking path outside ruins that Thanos just happens to be visiting) seems a little too "just so" to be a coincidence. It really would make a lot of sense to later discover that "someone" was pulling strings. Who? My vote is Eothas.

 

If Iovara planted the seed that the gods aren't real, how better to sow than show that one can "die"?

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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There is also the possibility that putting a God in a human mind would somehow cripple him. Can you force a brain in a single neuron? Ok, this is a big exaggeration, but maybe the gods are on another level, so they may lose something by coming to the physical level. Eothas could have behaved strangely because of this and that would be the reason he didn't explain what was going on.

 

Well, I actually don't believe this, what Achilles said above is much more intersting to consider, Eothas dying on purpose.


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My theory is like that (basing on collector's book info and Durance quest info)

 

Eothas is a younger god (look that he is shown as young man) created after gods rebelled against Woedica. In Engwithan plans he supposed to be 'second light version of Woedica', because he wears a CROWN as the ONLY god except for The Queen that Was - a symbol of power, in his case sun and stars. Collector's book says that because of it Eothas was not accepted by other gods - he probably became alienated among them (maybe that's why he is not in Council of Stars, but I think it has more connection with his condition after Godhammer explosion). Next his portfolio says his allies are Hylea and.... WOEDICA! Hylea because of birth and new beginnings domainand  Woedica probably because of shared domain of power (the crown) and maybe Queen helped him to 'enter' into pantheon in some way. So Eothas had his attention to his followers and Eora's affairs (his churches are strongly regulated in faith business, he communicated with his priests very often). He didn't rebell against Woedica (Aedyr Empire) as Magran (Dyrwood) did and other gods (directly to her) in the past. But when Readceras and its people started to suffer from Aedyr Eothas couldn't stand it (he probably felt dissapointed with Woedica then). He decided to incarnate into Waidwen to punish Aedyr Empire/Woedica (look that the only gods who have physicial avatars manifested are Eothas, Woedica (The Strangler), Skaen (allied with Woedica) and partially Abydon). So Eothas as Waidwen broke Aedyr Empire rule (Woedica) over Readceras and made colony free. We know that as a king of Readceras he started to persecute people of other faiths, I guess because of Eothas conflict with the rest of pantheon not accepting his majesty (in human form emotions and desire of revenge, which is Woedica domain, could explode in him). So, he marched on Dyrwood from two reasons: when that country cared for Readcerans looking for help and when he found out plans of making Hollowborn crisis in Dyrwood by Thaos/Woedica he had rebelled. Because Magran is Eothas enemy (she probably strongly disagreed with his presence in pantheon seeing him as retreat, additionally she burned Woedica in her fire during divine rebellion and Eothas was Woedica's ally for a long time) she made a short alliance with Woedica to stop him (Woedica wanted revenge for Eothas 'betrayal' and Magran wanted to show who rules here). Magran gave her priests Godhammer, which killed/stopped Waidwen/Eothas. Other gods didn't rain on Magran's parade because they probably wanted punish Eothas for his 'divine aroganccy' and meddling into human affairs, having bad relationships with him before (although I don't know why Hylea did nothing to help Eothas, we know that she mourns after his disappearance). When Hollowborn crisis came gods understood they will be done if Woedica becomes a queen again. And then PC arrives and does Eothas dirty work to stop Woedica's/Thaos' plans, saving pantheon asses.

Edited by White Phoenix

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Maybe he didn't want to reveal the specifics of how gods can be empowered or depowered, or that mortals can influence the gods by using some ancient machines. Like exposing the leaden key would also expose the "secret" they were trying to hush up and he might not want that.

Edited by falchen
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