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Shouldn't all spells be per combat encounter? Not per rest?

resting for free exploitable

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#41
nipsen

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Yeah. Learning strategic resource management is a big part of learning the game.

Then it's a good thing we all wanted to play an rts.

 

 

"Keep in mind I play on POTD, TOI, blind playthrough, so I usually don't hold back when fighting. I approach each fight with overwhelming force to ensure victory.  The problem is having to constantly use all the camping supplies or having to constantly go back to the inn and rest."

 

=> "I play in a way that is extremely wasteful of the limited resources that I am given. This creates some frustrations. I think the game should be fixed so that my decision to ignore the strategic decisions presented by the game becomes reasonable."

 

This, ladies and gentlemen, is a post by a moderator. Keeping it classy and setting the high bar for the rest of us to follow. 

 

Alas, I fear I can't summon forth an inner douchbag which quite matches that response, but it's nice to know where the moderators of the forum stand. Basically RPGCodex level infantile responses.

 

Oh, no, this is above the usual level, since it's an attempt to be both witty and since it is in a specific sense also is internally consistent.

 

But being unaware of the context of your own argument, and arguing for allegedly minor details "everybody" wants to be implemented, while pretending this has no implications for anything else. When it in reality changes the entire ruleset from the bottom up. That is the normal mode around here, and incidentally also how PoE became a game that forces everyone to play the game, from second to second, exactly like a vast majority of 5 specific people on the forums played BG2.



#42
GrinningReaper659

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Yeah. Learning strategic resource management is a big part of learning the game.

Then it's a good thing we all wanted to play an rts.

 

I don't see any argument that could be made for PoE being more of an RTS than the IE games, but I'm willing to listen.

 

Unless, of course, you're saying that the reason you didn't have to learn resource management in the IE games is because of the wonderful rest-spamming option? Listen, if you need that level of non-challenge in IE games, it's available. If you need that level of non-challenge in PoE, it's available here too, it's called Easy mode. In easy mode you can spam those spells and there are less enemies to deal with, so those same spells will end fights quicker. Then you can rest after every couple of fights because there is really no shortage of camping supplies in this game. How many does the game let you carry on easy, is it four? That really should be plenty, four rests between town maps with inns and the possibility to just go to an inn any time and sleep and restock your camping supplies... what's the issue exactly?



#43
Aotrs Commander

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I honestly do wonder whether there is a factor wherein people want to play on the higher/highest levels of difficulty as a matter of pride, but are not perhaps really willing to adjust their stratagies to actually play at that level. I think there is almost certainly an element of that, generally, as a fundemental flaw in having difficulty modes - and unavoidable one, of course, since the only alternative is only to have a single difficulty level. But I do wonder if a few people do try to play above the difficultly level they would really be comfortable playing, in practise, just because they don't like what that that difficulty level is called or it isn't the highest one. I'm sure that there will be people that do this, but what I do not know is how widespread it is.

 

 

 

I should note that I say this as someone who probably plays far too much to be considered a Filthy Casual (sic), but who in general sticks to the bottom-end of difficulty levels and rarely rises above normal (as with PoE) - I don't play games for the "challenge" as i know many people do, but merely to be Make Something or be told a story of some form complete with some pretty explosions, when you get down to it. (My games are basically exclusively single-player and RPGs/RTS (campaign mode only, generally), 4X and city-builders.) I have no pride in my gaming skills; they are what they are!


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#44
Captain Shrek

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So why not turn on god mode and not bother about combat difficulty? That way you have pretty explosions + story. Problem = Solved? 



#45
nipsen

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Unless, of course, you're saying that the reason you didn't have to learn resource management in the IE games is because of the wonderful rest-spamming option? Listen, if you need that level of non-challenge in IE games, it's available. If you need that level of non-challenge in PoE, it's available here too, it's called Easy mode. In easy mode you can spam those spells and there are less enemies to deal with, so those same spells will end fights quicker. Then you can rest after every couple of fights because there is really no shortage of camping supplies in this game. How many does the game let you carry on easy, is it four? That really should be plenty, four rests between town maps with inns and the possibility to just go to an inn any time and sleep and restock your camping supplies... what's the issue exactly?

 

It takes the same mental effort of pushing boxes, one at a time, from one end of the floor to the other. It's boring and pointless. I don't want to do this for entertainment.

 

So why not turn on god mode and not bother about combat difficulty? That way you have pretty explosions + story. Problem = Solved? 

 

Mhm. That's what the game plays like. Increasing the difficulty simply extends the waiting time and extra trips back and forth. The challenge lies in how long you can stand repeating the same task over and over.

 

Other than that, I'm just going to note that - as always - we've had two diametrically opposite solutions to the "problem" here, the first as extreme as the next one. The first insists that there should in effect be no difficulty of any kind. Which makes sense, when the difficulty simply doesn't make you think about the usage of spells and abilities, but of camping supplies. Why would anyone want that (other than whoever decides these things at Obsidian)?

 

The second insists that the difficulty in navigating artificial obstacles on the way to the next set of dialogue should be a grueling trial by very, very slow burning fire.

 

While a compromise between the two manage the best of the two options: a linear game that isn't challenging in any way, even though it is still grueling in it's infinite exploration of boredom.

 

And you're arguing between these two opposites as if getting either one of them is a good idea. And that no other approach works. 

 

I have to admit, it is still fascinating to watch this stuff.



#46
Gfted1

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All spells and abilities should be on cooldowns, like D3. Some offering a faster recovery than others. :yes:



#47
b0rsuk

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For people who don't like resting limitations, or resource management, there's always Easy mode. I don't know what's the limit there, but it's 4 on Normal. You experience the same story, same music, companions, quests and areas. You either enjoy combat and play on higher settings, or turn it down. Lower resting limits is part of the difficulty.

 

I wish the game tracked how many times players rested over the course of a campaign. Ideally a list.



#48
Gfted1

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I think it does in a fashion. Isnt there some achievement for not resting more than <x> times? But it probably doesnt tell you the total amount of times you have rested.



#49
b0rsuk

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I think it does in a fashion. Isnt there some achievement for not resting more than <x> times? But it probably doesnt tell you the total amount of times you have rested.

 

That's a Steam achievement, not PoE achievement. I prefer to buy from GOG.


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#50
nipsen

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All spells and abilities should be on cooldowns, like D3. Some offering a faster recovery than others. :yes:

And I could add that although it may not seem that way, at all - in actual reality, Gft1ed is in fact making that statement with an acute and total awareness of the narrative flow in a dungeon, intricate knowledge of how this would affect the mechanics in the game on every level, and also in fact knowledge of what all people who want to play the game really wants.

 

Unbelievers and apostates may perhaps feel the need to ask: "But Gifted1 - how dost thou know these wondrous things about how all things fit together?". But it is not necessary to question, because he simply knows such things.



#51
scrotiemcb

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All spells and abilities should be on cooldowns, like D3. Some offering a faster recovery than others. :yes:

And I could add that although it may not seem that way, at all - in actual reality, Gft1ed is in fact making that statement with an acute and total awareness of the narrative flow in a dungeon, intricate knowledge of how this would affect the mechanics in the game on every level, and also in fact knowledge of what all people who want to play the game really wants.

Unbelievers and apostates may perhaps feel the need to ask: "But Gifted1 - how dost thou know these wondrous things about how all things fit together?". But it is not necessary to question, because he simply knows such things.
It may also seem that Poe's Law may add some level of ambiguity to nipsen's statements. But this would be unbelievable, as Gifted1's infallibility is sacrosanct.
Spoiler

Edited by scrotiemcb, 29 April 2015 - 09:06 AM.


#52
Gfted1

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Im glad you guys are finally coming around but tis sad to see nispen still has so much hurt in the butt. Cooldowns offer the added versatility of being used more or less often, based on the duration of the battles.


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#53
Captain Shrek

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Im glad you guys are finally coming around but tis sad to see nispen still has so much hurt in the butt. Cooldowns are basically the same as Vancian but with the added versatility of being used more or less often, based on the duration of the battles.

 

Not sure what you mean here. Vancian magic is associated with spell preparation as well and slots that are typically fewer than known spells. If you are referring to sorcerer like casters then it *might* make some sense. 



#54
Gfted1

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I was in the middle of editing that out but since you ask, spell preparation is still in PoE, at least wrt mages (everyone else gets the full monty right out of the gate, right?) . They will eventually become per encounter as you level up too. I feel that's not so dissimilar to cooldowns as those can be set to different timers (based on spell / ability strength). So, you wind up with a similar system that doesn't introduce a moronic resting mechanic.

 

Of course this is all conceptual handwaving. If I ever get around to playing PoE Ill be entering god mode immediately after character creation. :grin:



#55
Captain Shrek

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Personally I am more in favor of the Psionic point buy system for Erudites. Now that is magic done right. It is a pity that psionic powers are no where close to what wizards get. 



#56
Gfted1

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Ive always been a fan of Psionics too but we just never got around to using them when I used to pnp. Iirc, they were garbage back in 2E also.



#57
Captain Shrek

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The psionic system inspired my groups new ruleset. It's amazing. But right now tied closely to the setting we use (also in house). Might forward it to you if you are interested. 



#58
Crucis

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From reading just the first page, it's quite clear to me that Luzarius is unhappy that he can't play an OP per0encounter wizard, is unhappy that very few people agree with his PoV, and wants the devs change the rules to punish players who play the game as intended.  That is, punish the players who use the rest system judiciously (as intended) and who seem most likely to be those who disagree with him.



#59
Gfted1

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The psionic system inspired my groups new ruleset. It's amazing. But right now tied closely to the setting we use (also in house). Might forward it to you if you are interested. 

 

Awesome! Is it something you can c&p into a PM? I don't generally give out my email address.



#60
Captain Shrek

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It's a PDF  :no: .







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