Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Does this talent actually increase the crit damage multiplier by 0.3 for anyone?  I tested ranged weapons and spells with x1.5 crit damage and found that the talent seems to have no impact on the damage range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's hard to test damage in this game.

 

Would be nice if the actual calculation was shown on mouse-over.

 

We'd need to mod a weapon to have the min equal the max damage to properly test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's hard to test damage in this game.

 

Would be nice if the actual calculation was shown on mouse-over.

 

We'd need to mod a weapon to have the min equal the max damage to properly test.

 

It's not that difficult - for example, if a weapon does 13-20 points of damage and has the default x1.5 crit damage, max crits go to 30 points (subtract DR of test target).  Simply attack with a fast weapon while affected by accuracy buffs to see many crits.  Optionally, debuff enemies' resistance for even more crits.

 

For the scenario above, my crits would never go beyond 30 points with or without The Merciless Hand.  If the talent actually worked, there would be numbers as high as 1.8 * 20 = 36 and plenty of crits in the (30, 36] range.  I've tested many data points with ranged weapons and spells.

 

One caveat - I did add/remove talent via cheat console.  It would be helpful if someone who acquired it legitimately confirms my findings before we declare this a bug.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's hard to test damage in this game.

 

Would be nice if the actual calculation was shown on mouse-over.

 

We'd need to mod a weapon to have the min equal the max damage to properly test.

 

There was a thread earlier on this board where someone was testing by doing exactly that. If you're really curious, look it up, see if you can get in touch with the guy.

Edited by gkathellar

If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/

 

seems to only add 0.25 to crit damage not 0.3 (unless the barb I tested against has some crit damage reduction skill/item I didn't noticed) 

 

20 base damage quarterstaff .. 27% might bonus 

 

20 * (1 + 0.27 - 0.5) = 15.4  //   graze   fits with combat log

20 * (1 + 0.27 + 0.5 + X ) = 40.4 // this was the crit

 

But it resolves for X = 0.25 not 0.3 ..  Should've tested with 2 more chars to make sure .. Was to tired, will test again probably tomorrow ..

Edited by peddroelm
  • Like 1

WPNTVf7.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/

 

seems to only add 0.25 to crit damage not 0.3 (unless the barb I tested against has some crit damage reduction skill/item I didn't noticed) 

 

20 base damage quarterstaff .. 27% might bonus 

 

20 * (1 + 0.27 - 0.5) = 15.4  //   graze   fits with combat log

20 * (1 + 0.27 + 0.5 + X ) = 40.4 // this was the crit

 

But it resolves for X = 0.25 not 0.3 ..  Should've tested with 2 more chars to make sure .. Was to tired, will test again probably tomorrow ..

 

Have you tested only with melee weapons?  My tests were with ranged weapons and spells, so it's possible that the talent affects melee weapons only.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Have you tested only with melee weapons?  My tests were with ranged weapons and spells, so it's possible that the talent affects melee weapons only.

 

only a quick test with quarterstaff .. will test with ranged weapons also ..

 

 

Some crit modifier tests
 
 Used char with 39% might bonus.. 20 base damage Resolution Sabre (annihilation extra 50% on crit) & Crossbow. 
 15% fine enchantment (sabre). 20% reckless attack (melee only) . Rabit foot 10% on crits.   
 
 resolution sabre
 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 66.8 // sneak crit perfect
 crossbow
 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 49.8 // sneak crit
 
 add merciless hand
 
 resolution sabre
 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 71.8 // sneak crit 
 crossbow
 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 54.8 /sneak crit
 
NOT broken , just a bit dishonest (25% instead of the 30% listed in description)
Edited by peddroelm
  • Like 1

WPNTVf7.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Have you tested only with melee weapons?  My tests were with ranged weapons and spells, so it's possible that the talent affects melee weapons only.

 

only a quick test with quarterstaff .. will test with ranged weapons also ..

 

 

Some crit modifier tests
 
 Used char with 39% might bonus.. 20 base damage Resolution Sabre (annihilation extra 50% on crit) & Crossbow. 
 15% fine enchantment (sabre). 20% reckless attack (melee only) . Rabit foot 10% on crits.   
 
 resolution sabre
 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 66.8 // sneak crit perfect
 crossbow
 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 49.8 // sneak crit
 
 add merciless hand
 
 resolution sabre
 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 71.8 // sneak crit 
 crossbow
 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 54.8 /sneak crit
 
NOT broken , just a bit dishonest (25% instead of the 30% listed in description)

 

 

Are you using the cheat console to add the talent, and if so, which one?  I tried the following:

 

the_merciless_hand

tln_the_merciless_hand_talent

 

The only other difference in our test setup that I can see right away is that I used a war bow as my ranged weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After finally landing a crit outside of the "normal" range, I went back to the drawing board and the issue became obvious...  I apparently spaced out last night and expected the crit multiplier to be an actual, umm, multiplier, on the normal range: damage = (1 + might and other damage bonuses) * (1 + crit multiplier + crit multiplier bonuses).

 

Having reviewed the game mechanics, I recalled that crit bonuses were implemented as stated above - they are additive with all other damage bonuses.  The implication is that crit multipiers are not particularly effective in PoE.  In the above example for the crossbow, the initial damage multiplier is ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 2.49.  A 0.25 crit multiplier bonus brings this to 2.74.  2.74/2.49 = 10% effective damage increase for crits.  If your crit percentage, is, say, ~20%, then your overall effective damage increase is ~2%.

 

On weapons of base damage = 20, a 10% difference is only 2 points, which implies that a large sample size is needed to verify whether the talent has any effect.  Due to the flawed multiplicative formula that I used, I expected more variation and apparently pulled the plug on my initial tests too quickly.  My apologies for the confusion.

 

In conclusion, The Merciless Hand talent is not broken, but offers a only a minor damage increase under most circumstances to a single character.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hugin7 and peddroelm, you are gentlemen and scholars both. Thank you for the research.


If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...