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I love guns in Pillars of Eternity...

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They are indeed awesome and its good they got implemented. 

Unfortunately they will remain... boring, situational and underwhelming until the devs fixes the broken fact that reload times are not affected by action speed / dex.

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I never understood the argument that guns don't belong in fantasy. They were in use at about the same time as the pikes and full plate that are omnipresent in the genre. To say nothing of trying to bring up realism in a game where I can duel-wield spears or have my saber slice through plate armor, on top of all the dragons and magical shenanigans

The nerd grognards just love ranting about that stuff. They'll throw you all their unfallable wisdom of how Tolkien-esque or DnD-esque fantasy should be :p

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They are indeed awesome and its good they got implemented. 

 

Unfortunately they will remain... boring, situational and underwhelming until the devs fixes the broken fact that reload times are not affected by action speed / dex.

 

Afaik, they used to be affected.. no? I remember it being discussed extensively during BBv480, and how Dexterity favoured Firearms because the reduction got applied three times; fire, recovery, and reload, while everyone else just got their fire and recovery affected.

 

I may be wrong, simply because I wasn't the one that did the crunching, but I wouldn't expect this to be "fixed". I think they did "fix" it already, into the opposite of what you (and me) wants.

 

I never understood the argument that guns don't belong in fantasy. They were in use at about the same time as the pikes and full plate that are omnipresent in the genre. To say nothing of trying to bring up realism in a game where I can duel-wield spears or have my saber slice through plate armor, on top of all the dragons and magical shenanigans

You say "omnipresent in the genre", but that's actually extremely far from the truth. Firearms may be somewhat ubiquitous now, but fantasy still usually doesn't include it, and certainly not two decades ago or less.

 

To me, it's all about setting, and PoE pulls that off admirably. The firearms just fits. Whether pikes and full plates ever shared battlefields with firearms in the real world is completely irrelevant.

Edited by Luckmann
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They are indeed awesome and its good they got implemented. 

 

Unfortunately they will remain... boring, situational and underwhelming until the devs fixes the broken fact that reload times are not affected by action speed / dex.

 

Afaik, they used to be affected.. no? I remember it being discussed extensively during BBv480, and how Dexterity favoured Firearms because the reduction got applied three times; fire, recovery, and reload, while everyone else just got their fire and recovery affected.

 

I may be wrong, simply because I wasn't the one that did the crunching, but I wouldn't expect this to be "fixed". I think they did "fix" it already, into the opposite of what you (and me) wants.

 

I never understood the argument that guns don't belong in fantasy. They were in use at about the same time as the pikes and full plate that are omnipresent in the genre. To say nothing of trying to bring up realism in a game where I can duel-wield spears or have my saber slice through plate armor, on top of all the dragons and magical shenanigans

You say "omnipresent in the genre", but that's actually extremely far from the truth. Firearms may be somewhat ubiquitous now, but fantasy still usually doesn't include it, and certainly not two decades ago or less.

 

To me, it's all about setting, and PoE pulls that off admirably. The firearms just fits. Whether pikes and full plates ever shared battlefields with firearms in the real world is completely irrelevant.

 

 

He was saying that pikes and full plate are omnipresent, despite being from around the same period as early firearms, which are usually absent.

 

Of course, the reason they're usually absent is that they steal a lot of the wizard's thunder. "Oh, you can point at someone from forty meters away and make them fall dead with a dramatic burst of smoke and flame? Me too, and I didn't have to go to school for twenty years to learn how to do it."

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They are indeed awesome and its good they got implemented. 

 

Unfortunately they will remain... boring, situational and underwhelming until the devs fixes the broken fact that reload times are not affected by action speed / dex.

 

Afaik, they used to be affected.. no? I remember it being discussed extensively during BBv480, and how Dexterity favoured Firearms because the reduction got applied three times; fire, recovery, and reload, while everyone else just got their fire and recovery affected.

 

I may be wrong, simply because I wasn't the one that did the crunching, but I wouldn't expect this to be "fixed". I think they did "fix" it already, into the opposite of what you (and me) wants.

 

I never understood the argument that guns don't belong in fantasy. They were in use at about the same time as the pikes and full plate that are omnipresent in the genre. To say nothing of trying to bring up realism in a game where I can duel-wield spears or have my saber slice through plate armor, on top of all the dragons and magical shenanigans

You say "omnipresent in the genre", but that's actually extremely far from the truth. Firearms may be somewhat ubiquitous now, but fantasy still usually doesn't include it, and certainly not two decades ago or less.

 

To me, it's all about setting, and PoE pulls that off admirably. The firearms just fits. Whether pikes and full plates ever shared battlefields with firearms in the real world is completely irrelevant.

 

 

My point is that plate armor (often inches thick and with massive shoulders for flavor) is omnipresent in fantasy, as are late medieval weapons such as pikes, but for some time guns were verbotten despite being used at about the same time. Fanasy has started to include guns, but many settings still ignore them, or just have gunpowder like in Dragon Age.

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My point is that plate armor (often inches thick and with massive shoulders for flavor) is omnipresent in fantasy, as are late medieval weapons such as pikes, but for some time guns were verbotten despite being used at about the same time. Fanasy has started to include guns, but many settings still ignore them, or just have gunpowder like in Dragon Age.

 

 

I think many people just prefer the middle ages and early medieval periods, long before gunpowder. Having full plate in a setting like that may technically make as little (or as much) sense as guns, but to someone who doesn't know history it's far less of a stretch. Guns change everything, slightly thicker armour doesn't.

 

Personally though any setting works for me depending on how well it's done. The mechanics may not be perfect in Pillars of Eternity but they nailed the overall feel, including the guns. It's just incredibly satisfying to play a stealth character that sneaks up behind folk and shoots them in the back of the head to initiate combat. The sounds and animations are fantastic.

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They are indeed awesome and its good they got implemented. 

 

Unfortunately they will remain... boring, situational and underwhelming until the devs fixes the broken fact that reload times are not affected by action speed / dex.

 

Afaik, they used to be affected.. no? I remember it being discussed extensively during BBv480, and how Dexterity favoured Firearms because the reduction got applied three times; fire, recovery, and reload, while everyone else just got their fire and recovery affected.

 

I may be wrong, simply because I wasn't the one that did the crunching, but I wouldn't expect this to be "fixed". I think they did "fix" it already, into the opposite of what you (and me) wants.

 

I never understood the argument that guns don't belong in fantasy. They were in use at about the same time as the pikes and full plate that are omnipresent in the genre. To say nothing of trying to bring up realism in a game where I can duel-wield spears or have my saber slice through plate armor, on top of all the dragons and magical shenanigans

You say "omnipresent in the genre", but that's actually extremely far from the truth. Firearms may be somewhat ubiquitous now, but fantasy still usually doesn't include it, and certainly not two decades ago or less.

 

To me, it's all about setting, and PoE pulls that off admirably. The firearms just fits. Whether pikes and full plates ever shared battlefields with firearms in the real world is completely irrelevant.

 

 

My point is that plate armor (often inches thick and with massive shoulders for flavor) is omnipresent in fantasy, as are late medieval weapons such as pikes, but for some time guns were verbotten despite being used at about the same time. Fanasy has started to include guns, but many settings still ignore them, or just have gunpowder like in Dragon Age.

 

 

The thing is that weapons such as zweihander and pikes fit very well into a high-medieval setting without seeming out of place, even if they are.

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Warhammer has guns. QED.

 

Used to love Warhammer, then they decided to retcon everything and ruin all of it forever, and now I can't even get excited for Total War: Warhammer, because I just know that they'll shoehorn in all the dumb.

Edited by Luckmann

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Warhammer has guns. QED.

 

Used to love Warhammer, then they decided to retcon everything and ruin all of it forever, and now I can't even get excited for Total War: Warhammer, because I just know that they'll shoehorn in all the dumb.

 

 

A fair concern, I'm just hyped at the idea of a fantasy TW game. And dumb orcs might finally make sense in the context of dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers TW AI :D


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I can't stop staring at your signature Monte Carlo. It's freaking addictive! :wowey:
I used to play Warhammer and it's spinn-offs dungeon games from start to mid 90's and I loved the setting. It was the games that made me love fantasy in general. I start looking at it again around 2008; didn't play, just read the armybooks and such. I believed it lost some of its magic to me - I think it was the aesthetics, but not sure. Maybe I just grew up and it didn't make me feel like in my early to mid teens. Anyway, Warhammer and 40k are both carved in may brain so I'll always have a love for those. I just can't wait to see a TW game of it, only I always waited for a turn-based combat game in epic scale in the warhammer and 40k settings (this'll probably have real time battles).

 

Edit: I know I'm dragging the thread off-topic, but I couldn't resist talking about warhammer a bit. I don't find myself in forums usually :)

Edited by Sedrefilos

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Me too, love the guns. Nice change of pace, or addition to the goings-on rather. A critical hit with an arquebus exploding the target, couldn't be more satisfying.


All Stop. On Screen.

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I guess I just prefer the more Tolkien fantasy setting myself. I like guns, in RL and games like Wasteland 2, but not fond of them being used next to Fireballs and Magic Missiles.

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I guess I just prefer the more Tolkien fantasy setting myself. I like guns, in RL and games like Wasteland 2, but not fond of them being used next to Fireballs and Magic Missiles.

well, there was gunpowder in lotr...

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I liked how they kept their idea to go with setting that is technologically about in same point as our world was during dawn of Age of Discovery. Guns specifically have quite nice feeling in them, because of their animations and sounds effects.

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I guess I just prefer the more Tolkien fantasy setting myself. I like guns, in RL and games like Wasteland 2, but not fond of them being used next to Fireballs and Magic Missiles.

well, there was gunpowder in lotr...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Some kind of rudimentary explosive, anyway. But it was mostly there so that Tolkien could wax luddite.


If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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I guess I just prefer the more Tolkien fantasy setting myself. I like guns, in RL and games like Wasteland 2, but not fond of them being used next to Fireballs and Magic Missiles.

well, there was gunpowder in lotr...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Black powder was in use well before even the crudest of firearms were invented. The Japanese for instance used black powder several centuries before the introduction of the matchlock by the Portuguese in the 16th century. But it does make one think that in LotR, maybe they too were just a few centuries away from developing firearms. Somehow, Legolas packing a fully-automatic assault rifle does not seem to be quite as charming :p.

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Guns rocked.  Need to make pistols one-handed so that you can dual wield pistol and cutlass (and add in cutlasses as well) and then add in ships... yeah okay I'm really Guybrush in disguise...

 

the-secret-of-monkey-island-guybrush-thr

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"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

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Guns rocked.  Need to make pistols one-handed so that you can dual wield pistol and cutlass (and add in cutlasses as well) and then add in ships... yeah okay I'm really Guybrush in disguise...

 

 

 

I would say that they should make it so that you can wield pistol and one handed weapon in same weapon slot pair, but make it so that reloading pistol needs both hands and you get single weapon accuracy bonus with one handed weapon. Because it would give something special for pistols over arquebuses, as you can save half of weapon slot so to speak by deciding to use one instead of arquebus, but losing some damage potential. Although allowing such thing would need some changes in mechanics so that you can determine which weapon in the pair you want to use. Letting you attack with both one handed weapon and pistol same time so that you can also reload pistol same time would make pistol maybe too good, although that could be solved with giving accuracy minuses such pairing, but that probably would make it become unattractive choice at the end.

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I guess I just prefer the more Tolkien fantasy setting myself. I like guns, in RL and games like Wasteland 2, but not fond of them being used next to Fireballs and Magic Missiles.

well, there was gunpowder in lotr...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Black powder was in use well before even the crudest of firearms were invented. The Japanese for instance used black powder several centuries before the introduction of the matchlock by the Portuguese in the 16th century. But it does make one think that in LotR, maybe they too were just a few centuries away from developing firearms. Somehow, Legolas packing a fully-automatic assault rifle does not seem to be quite as charming :p.

 

the actual word, "gunpowder" were used in the hobbit.  call it artistic license, but combined with fireworks and some kinda explosive device...

 

*shrug*

 

and we would not have been the least bit perturbed if gimli or legolas had a couple flintlock pistols that they would use at the start o' every engagement.  in fact, we believe such stuff mighta' improved the story 'cause then the whole Evils o' Industrialization/Scouring o' the Shire  crap woulda' need been changed if the good guys had firearms.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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The guns are amazing for the flavor they bring to combat

 

I enjoy the sheer sound of a weapon discharge...Kpom! kpom!

 

 

I did not think such sound effects would count for so much...

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Also, the recovery mechanic in fact works amazing in making guns interesting:

Instead of waiting for your arbequs to reload, you can instead switch to a different gun and fire that before reloading.

 

... you know, just like they did with the first firearms!

 

It's amazing.

 

 

 

Holy ****, did we just find something about Pillars of Eternity that everyone likes?

 

8c5.jpg

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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This thread gives me a place to ask a question I wanted to poise. I did donate (not enough to be full backer as I couldn't afford it them) back the game a while back but I didn't really keep up with all the details so firearms were a surprise.

 

I'm afraid I'm one of those who isn't a fan of firearms in the game, or perhaps more accurately it's implementation. Though I have a preference for a roughly high fantasy setting it's more a general preference as I've enjoyed a number of good RPGs in very different settings in which guns are part, so in itself it isn't a problem.

 

What I do find a problem is that just there in what is otherwise a medievalesque high fantasy setting without any effect on the arm, armour and combat elsewhere. Firearms are a game changer, once effective cannon and accompanying muskets and pistols came in it changed combat and arms and armour within a generation. And with such quite developed firearms in place and with fairly widespread use it should have changed and effected all other weapons and armour, how the guards look etc. Well at least for me, and as firearms aren't magic I can't waive it away to myself that way, full plate and shields should be redundant and archaic, and bows and crossbows largely gone as weapons of war.

 

But it hadn't, the setting may be in a renaissance type period lore wise but it neither appears, looks nor feels like it. Everything seems the high fantasy medievalish theme except there are guns there which seem to effect nothing and haven't caused any change. Somehow people continue fighting as if they aren't there, and it for me every time it comes up it's an implicit forth wall breaker for me, where guns should have changed everything but arms, armour and seem completely unaffected.

 

To have the guns just there anomalously alongside the high fantasy setting (or least in every way appears to be that) without having any effect on culture and weapons, arms and even some classes just keeps telling me this is a game world so the guns can be there without affecting anything else just because it's a fantasy game so somehow it just does

. And for me as I said it feels like it is a constant breaker of the fourth wall to me, and removes any immersion and so rping in the game.

 

I know reading this thread this is mostly just a problem for me but I'm having difficulty getting past it and getting on with the game (I'm still in the first act) and wanted to ask is there anyway to avoid them or a possibility of a mod to remove the guns. I sold Kana's immediately and gave him a crossbow but it keeps popping up elsewhere. And I just it removes any immersion I have and allot of enthusiasm to continue the game because it's so frustrating to have guns there but unconnected to anything else when to me (and stress for me) they should change and effect all other weapons and armour (and how some classes function).

 

Anyway that's it, any ideas to avoid the firearms would be most welcome.

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This thread gives me a place to ask a question I wanted to poise. I did donate (not enough to be full backer as I couldn't afford it them) back the game a while back but I didn't really keep up with all the details so firearms were a surprise.

 

I'm afraid I'm one of those who isn't a fan of firearms in the game, or perhaps more accurately it's implementation. Though I have a preference for a roughly high fantasy setting it's more a general preference as I've enjoyed a number of good RPGs in very different settings in which guns are part, so in itself it isn't a problem.

 

What I do find a problem is that just there in what is otherwise a medievalesque high fantasy setting without any effect on the arm, armour and combat elsewhere. Firearms are a game changer, once effective cannon and accompanying muskets and pistols came in it changed combat and arms and armour within a generation. And with such quite developed firearms in place and with fairly widespread use it should have changed and effected all other weapons and armour, how the guards look etc. Well at least for me, and as firearms aren't magic I can't waive it away to myself that way, full plate and shields should be redundant and archaic, and bows and crossbows largely gone as weapons of war.

 

But it hadn't, the setting may be in a renaissance type period lore wise but it neither appears, looks nor feels like it. Everything seems the high fantasy medievalish theme except there are guns there which seem to effect nothing and haven't caused any change. Somehow people continue fighting as if they aren't there, and it for me every time it comes up it's an implicit forth wall breaker for me, where guns should have changed everything but arms, armour and seem completely unaffected.

 

To have the guns just there anomalously alongside the high fantasy setting (or least in every way appears to be that) without having any effect on culture and weapons, arms and even some classes just keeps telling me this is a game world so the guns can be there without affecting anything else just because it's a fantasy game so somehow it just does

. And for me as I said it feels like it is a constant breaker of the fourth wall to me, and removes any immersion and so rping in the game.

 

I know reading this thread this is mostly just a problem for me but I'm having difficulty getting past it and getting on with the game (I'm still in the first act) and wanted to ask is there anyway to avoid them or a possibility of a mod to remove the guns. I sold Kana's immediately and gave him a crossbow but it keeps popping up elsewhere. And I just it removes any immersion I have and allot of enthusiasm to continue the game because it's so frustrating to have guns there but unconnected to anything else when to me (and stress for me) they should change and effect all other weapons and armour (and how some classes function).

 

Anyway that's it, any ideas to avoid the firearms would be most welcome.

Um, sorry but you are wrong.  Firearms appeared at the same time as fullplate, in fact the lack of firearms in a setting with fullplate is actually historically inaccurate.  Your beliefs that firearms were such a gamechanger is based on fallacies created by Victorian historians who really have no right to claim the name historian due to the utter bollocks they made up about the past.   Bows and crossbows both continued to see use alongside firearms, and were comparable to each other in different ways.

 

I could go into more detail if you want, like how the knight was not driven from the battlefield by guns but by the rise of the professional soldier, that the main advantage of guns was that it was easy to train people up to use them, and how that if you have an issue with guns then you should also have an issue with rapiers being in the game too which not only didn't exist until after guns became more commonplace but was also purely a civilian weapon for duelling that has no place on a battlefield or adventuring, but I know most people get annoyed at that so won't bother unless you are interested.

Edited by FlintlockJazz
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"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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go to nexus or some other mod center and ask for such mod, maybe someone will make it. i havent seen one so far (just one that rebalances the guns)


PIllars of eternty (Hard) 1st playtrough: 155h, 38 m (main Ranger with bear(bow), Eder, Durance(off tank), Hirvais(off tank), Kana(ranged), Aloth/GM)
PIllars of eternty (PtoD) 2nd playtrough: 88h 30 m (main Bleak Walker Paladin, Eder, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue (ranged) Cypher(wand)
(not counting reloads and experimenting)
status i love the game, hate the bugs, and wish for better AI and Pathfinding

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78749-needed-qualyty-of-life-improvements-information-and-transparency/

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