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luzarius

Can't get over how good POE is & why Bioware abandoned this style of gameplay.

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I really loved DAO. I had my quibbles. Race and class choice really felt cramped and limited. "3 & 3". It was interesting to choose an "origin" (background) and then get 6 different initial scenarios, admittedly. Although each was basically "6 different ways to meet your Duncan". But everything else was great. 

 

 

I really loved the origin idea, it made me play thru the game with each variant possible, just to see the slight differences. I liked it. Sure you ended up in the same spot, but so do all games like this because we are not able to make a game that acts to everything we do :D

 

As i see it, DA:O was a genuine attempt to stick to their roots and bring back this genre in a new light (with 3D and everything).

 

DA:O was originally a Bioware only product with no publisher, i still have some game magazines collection dust with interviews from the lead at that time that confirm this, and where then he hoped that a publisher would take it up. At that point of time DA:O looked godlike good (graphics wise..which was latter brought down because of consoles) It was also planed as a PC only game.

 

Unfortunaly Bioware had not the money to do this on their own, creating a new engine and everything takes time, so you have the money to feed the staff. But they also made a deal for Mass Effect with MS for Xbox and then EA for PC. And somehow they owners decided to sell their company to EA. Why, i don´t know. So they had now the funding to finish DA:O, which i think was a very good game and could have been the start of a great new party based RPG series.

 

Could, but EA is **** and famous for ****ing and destroying beloved studios and franchises. and the moment came not with DA2, but with the first expansion to Origins. With still the smell of DLC in the air they decided that making an expansion of something that was to be a DLC was a good idea. It was, if they would have the time. EA gave them no time. Awakening was a buggy ****ty mess and is to this day.

 

DA2 was rushed out, buggy and despite some interesting story telling with characters a complete dissapointment if we compare it with DA:O. On it´s own, it´s a decend action RPG with a low story. But its a sequel so it should be critized that way.

 

DA:I has also not gone back...and even more console than 2. Now also with tons of filler content (fetch mmo quests to fill time). Though there are some great moments of what i have seen. Still. the console combat **** is uninteresting to me and the overall story is so horrible...

 

And that comes from someone who loved that company. I really did...i forced their games upon everyone i know lol But after DA and don´t even get me started on Mass Effect, or the so called "bioware austin" and the **** they call TOR .

 

Nope, Bioware is dead. But don´t worry, it´s just another mark on EA. I´m sure they are proud of their history.

 

 

Edit: I also went over my head sorry for that.

 

Why the genre came to a halt is simple: the uprise of consoles, publisher saw their money in that direction and stopped making this kind of games and generally games for pc in that time. Yes the irony that "indis" came than back to PC is not lost to me and STEAM rose out of the ashes (something big publishers probably still fum about) . But the genre "died" back then because of publisher dissinterest in PC as a gaming platform and the focus on consoles. This is even more stupid considering BG3 was mostly done.

Edited by cirdanx

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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And somehow they owners decided to sell their company to EA. Why, i don´t know. 

The investment group that owned BioWare sold it in what honestly was a conflict-of-interest deal. 

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I love PoE and the Dragon Age games. (Yes, all three of them. Truly, I am a magical unicorn.)

 

I think BioWare made the right decision for them when they moved in a more cinematic and action-oriented direction, but I couldn't be happier that there are other companies producing Old Skool cRPGs. We can, in fact, have more than one type of game.

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And somehow they owners decided to sell their company to EA. Why, i don´t know. 

The investment group that owned BioWare sold it in what honestly was a conflict-of-interest deal. 

 

 

I see. Muzyka and Zeschuk should have kept it a privat company *sigh*


"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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And somehow they owners decided to sell their company to EA. Why, i don´t know. 

The investment group that owned BioWare sold it in what honestly was a conflict-of-interest deal. 

 

Well, they had about 860 million reasons to sell...

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I love PoE and the Dragon Age games. (Yes, all three of them. Truly, I am a magical unicorn.)

 

I think BioWare made the right decision for them when they moved in a more cinematic and action-oriented direction, but I couldn't be happier that there are other companies producing Old Skool cRPGs. We can, in fact, have more than one type of game.

 

I accept that, but then: 

1) Bio should have been more honest about the fact that they're not interested in the old fans anymore (the marketing for DAI suggested otherwise) -- and the problem is I think they got people thinking DA2 & DA3 were going to be a continuation of DA:O when they were, in fact, "Mass Effected" discontinuities. 

and

2) I sure wish both types of games were showered with the same amount of development resources by publishers (i.e. not having to use Kickstarter to get one type that is still beloved by many, and still preferred by some). 

Edited by CybAnt1

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I accept that, but then: 

1) Bio should have been more honest about the fact that they're not interested in the old fans anymore (the marketing for DAI suggested otherwise) -- and the problem is I think they got people thinking DA2 & DA3 were going to be a continuation of DA:O when they were, in fact, "Mass Effected" discontinuities. 

 

Exactly this. I, too, love DA:O despite its flaws, quirks, and issues. I thought it was a great game. But the direction they went with DA2 (I haven't even bothered buying DA:I yet - that will be bargain bin material) was a complete shock. It was in no way, shape, or form what could be considered an actual sequel to DA:O in my eyes.

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I accept that, but then: 

1) Bio should have been more honest about the fact that they're not interested in the old fans anymore (the marketing for DAI suggested otherwise) -- and the problem is I think they got people thinking DA2 & DA3 were going to be a continuation of DA:O when they were, in fact, "Mass Effected" discontinuities. 

 

 

 

THIS, and this is not marketing THIS is LYING out of their ass. The lead for DA2 did the same, "you can totaly play it like origins it makes NO difference". It does and that was a LIE. ME3 ending etc was nothing but a LIE over a LIE over a LIE...DA:I tactical view is for **** on pc, its worthless and controls horribly. again a LIE.

 

Yes i´m pissed -.- If you enjoy their games fine, but don´t let them get away with sales based on lies ffs.


"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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And somehow they owners decided to sell their company to EA. Why, i don´t know. 

The investment group that owned BioWare sold it in what honestly was a conflict-of-interest deal. 

 

 

I see. Muzyka and Zeschuk should have kept it a privat company *sigh*

 

I see Dr. Ray Muzyka listed as a gold backer for PoE.  Looks like Greg Zeschuck still close to his pals at Obsidian also. https://twitter.com/DoktorZee

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The entire Dragon Age Franchise and lore is some of the worst writing in the last 10 years and Bioware's poor choice of world engine and outdated visuals made it even worse.

 

The only good that came out of DA was Sandal. 

I don't know about worst, but I certainly got nothing out of it. Hate most the the characters, felt lots of the plot decisions felt like contrived dilemmas,  and I found the whole setting too close to standard fantasy to be interesting, but too far to have that high fantasy charm. 

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Personally, after playing just about the entire Bioware library, I'd have to agree with a review I read that states, "Bioware doesn't know how to make a good game." The reason I agree with that is the heavy, heavy illusion of player choice that goes into their stuff. Didn't pick mage in DOA? You just gimped your team, picked two-handed and didn't follow the strict class guide? Super gimped. KOTOR? Didn't go with Guardian? Have fun with that last part of the game. I stopped playing at DAO and haven't looked backed. Past over inquisition in a heart beat.

I mean, when I went back to do the old infinity engine games, i got through BG 1, once, couldn't do BG 2, loved Icewind dale 2, fallout 1,2,tactics.

I guess Mass Effect is just a distant memory now. I just, felt so neutral at the end of it. POE is the first game i've played were you can min/max, but pay a price for over specializing, something iv'e been looking for, for a long time. specializing

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Dragon Age inquisition was great, so was Pillars of Eternity, I had both on preorder and do not regret either purchase. Can't really compare the two in detail as both had different goals and design ideas though.

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Bioware *did* have Dragon Age: Origins, but chose to abandon that style of play for "cinematic" Mass Effect-like gameplay and storytelling, so it's not entirely true.

 

 

They abandoned this playstyle because consoles. Nothing else.

Edited by Zwiebelchen

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Maxis and Bioware yup 1 thing in common as already stated EA.  It did take EA a lot longer to kill Maxis then Bioware since Maxis was such a giant company at the time and Wil Wright was a game rockstar. I mean Windows 95 came default with a Maxis game. And later ms offfice had a built in easter egg for the Maxis game. And they were already a public traded company. So it took like 2 decades for Maxis to be wiped out by EA.

 

You will notice Simcity 4 is where the SimCity games really started down a different path. Because Wil Wright had nothing to do it. Those games lost their heart. They were just SimCity in name. Wil was off doing the Sims until he stopped doing that and then left Maxis. My favorite is still SimCity 3000 Unlimited Edition. Wil Wright's last city masterpiece.

 

Bioware you can tell their cRPG's were completely different after Mass Effect 1. Microsoft basically let them alone. Then under EA all of their games had less RPG elements and more action/adventure. ME1 I platyed about a 12 times. ME2 once and didn't even bother with ME3 by that time it was basically void of all classic RPG elements.

 

The only reason Dragon Age Origins survived was because it was in development since 2004 and released in 2009 So EA couldn't change the game. The newest game Dragon Age inquistion I'm not even sure how you can call it a cRPG. I mean you cant even switch weapons from melee to range. There are spells but not real spells with real effects. Its action/adventure spells not cRPG spells. There is no real choice in class or talents everything is bland. Its more Zelda then RPG except Zelda series did it better. At least you could switch items and have meaning for it. And it can't compete with say Torchwood 2 in the aRPG world. Its like some kind of weird hybrid RPG that excels at nothing but covers every area of RPG gaming. Hell I take Jade Empire over DAI.

 

Then finally Bioware suffers same fate as Maxis and studio heads left. Bioware probably has 5-10 years before EA just dissolves the name like it always does.

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I really dont agree with OP.

Dragon Age Inqusition can be crushed by any other MMO.

but

CitySkylines is definitely didnt crush Simcity. As PoE, Skylines made OK enterence to the industury. Thats all. No need to be so dramatic about It.


Kana - "Sorry. It seems I'm not very good at raising spirits." Kana winces. "That was unintentional."

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I wanted to elaborate about DAO since people seem to think likewise.

 

DAO did better companions than POE. I wouldn't know about DAI because it's sitting in my library not getting played but I've heard good things about its companions too. DA2 was passable but I would actually still rate the NPC interaction there above PoE.

 

PoE companions just weren't very compelling and as a result I found myself skipping much of the text because honestly I didn't feel like learning about the history of these random far-away places via giant walls of text.

 

If anything I found the Lore on the Gods much more interesting.

 

I think Obsidian definitely needs some work on making interesting companions that the player invests some emotion into. As it is there's just Eder who I feel any connection with, while the rest of the companions have story-lines that are too contrived and text-based to really do much for me.

 

Of particular note are Durance and Grieving Mother, both penned by Chris Avellone I believe.

 

I was absolutely floored by the depth of emotion I felt interacting with Dakkon from PS:T(which I believe Chris also did), but here neither Durance or GM do much for me. Their plights are supposed to make you feel pity for them, but it's just really convoluted and between-the-lines and their dialogue(by which I mean descriptive text) REALLY needs editing for verboseness. I actually had to check my Journal for both these characters to summarise what they actually told me because I read and didn't really understand what the text was telling me.

 

Also I now believe that there is nothing particularly wrong or cheap about Bioware romances, because come to think of it that was one of the ways BG2,DAO and DA2 characters held my interest.

Edited by Idleray

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I agree that the companions are the reason the DA series might be better than PoE in my mind. I think PoE has better sidequests/main quest though (although DA:O was pretty solid here IMO).

 

It's not so much that I think the PoE companions are badly written(though they do feel like lore dumps sometimes) but...they don't feel like they have that much content- their dialogue trees are exhausted pretty quickly, banter is good but sparse, interjections are relatively rare and don't actually affect the conversation. Things my PC says or does doesn't affect how my companions view me in any way most of the time, it's just a bit lacking overall. The companions do get more talkative at the end of the game, but it's a bit too little, too late for me.

Edited by Svirfneblin

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I wanted to elaborate about DAO since people seem to think likewise.

 

DAO did better companions than POE. I wouldn't know about DAI because it's sitting in my library not getting played but I've heard good things about its companions too. DA2 was passable but I would actually still rate the NPC interaction there above PoE.

 

PoE companions just weren't very compelling and as a result I found myself skipping much of the text because honestly I didn't feel like learning about the history of these random far-away places via giant walls of text.

 

If anything I found the Lore on the Gods much more interesting.

 

I think Obsidian definitely needs some work on making interesting companions that the player invests some emotion into. As it is there's just Eder who I feel any connection with, while the rest of the companions have story-lines that are too contrived and text-based to really do much for me.

 

Of particular note are Durance and Grieving Mother, both penned by Chris Avellone I believe.

 

I was absolutely floored by the depth of emotion I felt interacting with Dakkon from PS:T(which I believe Chris also did), but here neither Durance or GM do much for me. Their plights are supposed to make you feel pity for them, but it's just really convoluted and between-the-lines and their dialogue(by which I mean descriptive text) REALLY needs editing for verboseness. I actually had to check my Journal for both these characters to summarise what they actually told me because I read and didn't really understand what the text was telling me.

 

Also I now believe that there is nothing particularly wrong or cheap about Bioware romances, because come to think of it that was one of the ways BG2,DAO and DA2 characters held my interest.

 

Seriously? You rate the DA:O Jersey-Shore companions over PoE companions? Literally the only memorable character in DA:O was Oghren. But he also was just a generic cliché dwarf with a little bit of sarcasm thrown in.

Maybe the PoE characters weren't on the level of PS:T. I can totally see that. But Dragon Age? Seriously? Which characters exactly did you find memorable about Dragon Age?

 

I take Grieving Mother any day over the entire DA:O roster. And even the pretty straightforward characters Pallegina and Sagani had more personality than any of the one-dimensional ****buddies of DA:O.

 

What I can fully agree with is that Chris Avellone's characters are the best among the PoE cast. I'd definitely like to see Chris more involved in the upcoming PoE expansion. Give us more Avellone characters!

Edited by Zwiebelchen

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PoE's companions are regulated to a few lines of dialogue and personal quests.

 

That's it. 

 

Sorry to say, but PoE's companions, while they have nice personalities, feel more like afterthoughts.

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PoE's companions are regulated to a few lines of dialogue and personal quests.

 

That's it. 

 

Sorry to say, but PoE's companions, while they have nice personalities, feel more like afterthoughts.

 

Again, restrictions of time and money probably had a deep impact here. But even with the low amount of dialogue they have, Obsidian managed to make all the characters (maybe except for Aloth, which I found pretty boring) more interesting than all of the DA:O companions with complete voiceover and thousands of lines of jersey-shore'ish dialogue. I still get the shivers when thinking about Zevran or Leliana, that were promancer-abominations of the absolutely worst possible kind.

Edited by Zwiebelchen

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I found DA companions more interesting actually, Oghren and Wynne were the only ones I didn't care for much. There's more interaction with them and they react to things much more often too.

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I found DA companions more interesting actually, Oghren and Wynne were the only ones I didn't care for much. There's more interaction with them and they react to things much more often too.

 

So, let's see ...

We have Alistair, kind of the token warrior companion and very similar to Eder, honestly. But I agree that he was an overall well-fleshed out character.

Morrigan, a very one-dimensional "Oh, I'm such an anti-hero" cliché. Literally the only interesting thing about her was the final twist with her pregnancy. And let's not even start about how absolutely out-of-character this twist was.

Leliana: A mary-sue of the worst possible kind. She was basicly only there to fullfill the teenager waifu-fantasies.

Zevran: Errrgh. This guy was just weird to the core. And not the good kind of weird like Grieving Mother or Durance. Just the bad forced-bisexual-because-of-reasons kind of weird. Did he actually have anything to offer besides the stupid love interest?

Wynne: Actually the only unique character in the entire roster. I liked the idea of a grey-haired grandma-type character. Unfortunately her backstory was pretty boring.

Oghren: A cliché dwarf with some tacked-on slapstick gags.

Sten: "Oh, I am so in regret for my past-deeds... please let me make up for killing a family by killing other random people that possibly have families...". *Jawn*

Shale: A friggin' golem... seriously, how much character depth can you expect here? Funny trivia: Shale had probably still more personality than Zevran.

Dog: A ****ING DOG!! It can't even speak. It just barks. And still I liked it more than most of the other characters. Because who doesn't like a doggy?

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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I found DA companions more interesting actually, Oghren and Wynne were the only ones I didn't care for much. There's more interaction with them and they react to things much more often too.

 

So, let's see ...

We have Alistair, kind of the token warrior companion and very similar to Eder, honestly. But I agree that he was an overall well-fleshed out character.

Morrigan, a very one-dimensional "Oh, I'm such an anti-hero" cliché. Literally the only interesting thing about her was the final twist with her pregnancy. And let's not even start about how absolutely out-of-character this twist was.

Leliana: A mary-sue of the worst possible kind. She was basicly only there to fullfill the teenager waifu-fantasies.

Zevran: Errrgh. This guy was just weird to the core. And not the good kind of weird like Grieving Mother or Durance. Just the bad forced-bisexual-because-of-reasons kind of weird. Did he actually have anything to offer besides the stupid love interest?

Wynne: Actually the only unique character in the entire roster. I liked the idea of a grey-haired grandma-type character. Unfortunately her backstory was pretty boring.

Oghren: A cliché dwarf with some tacked-on slapstick gags.

Sten: "Oh, I am so in regret for my past-deeds... please let me make up for killing a family by killing other random people that possibly have families...". *Jawn*

Shale: A friggin' golem... seriously, how much character depth can you expect here? Funny trivia: Shale had probably still more personality than Zevran.

Dog: A ****ING DOG!! It can't even speak. It just barks. And still I liked it more than most of the other characters. Because who doesn't like a doggy?

 

And still that dog without being able to speak communicated volumes!

 

That is a mark of greatness.

 

And though you may not have "liked" Morrigan or Leliana (or Zevran) they are loved Companions of the game. 

 

Which PoE does not have (because the Companions are bland).

 

And Shale was really cool (but as DLC...*sigh*) - I liked Shale alot.  Especially her hatred for pigeons (and birds in general)! 

 

But what I really liked most were the banters.  If you had Alistair and Morrigan in your party, look out, here come the fireworks!

 

The DA:O Companions are anything but bland.

 

And yeah, you really are a little onion.

Edited by WebShaman

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I found DA companions more interesting actually, Oghren and Wynne were the only ones I didn't care for much. There's more interaction with them and they react to things much more often too.

 

So, let's see ...

We have Alistair, kind of the token warrior companion and very similar to Eder, honestly. But I agree that he was an overall well-fleshed out character.

Morrigan, a very one-dimensional "Oh, I'm such an anti-hero" cliché. Literally the only interesting thing about her was the final twist with her pregnancy. And let's not even start about how absolutely out-of-character this twist was.

Leliana: A mary-sue of the worst possible kind. She was basicly only there to fullfill the teenager waifu-fantasies.

Zevran: Errrgh. This guy was just weird to the core. And not the good kind of weird like Grieving Mother or Durance. Just the bad forced-bisexual-because-of-reasons kind of weird. Did he actually have anything to offer besides the stupid love interest?

Wynne: Actually the only unique character in the entire roster. I liked the idea of a grey-haired grandma-type character. Unfortunately her backstory was pretty boring.

Oghren: A cliché dwarf with some tacked-on slapstick gags.

Sten: "Oh, I am so in regret for my past-deeds... please let me make up for killing a family by killing other random people that possibly have families...". *Jawn*

Shale: A friggin' golem... seriously, how much character depth can you expect here? Funny trivia: Shale had probably still more personality than Zevran.

Dog: A ****ING DOG!! It can't even speak. It just barks. And still I liked it more than most of the other characters. Because who doesn't like a doggy?

 

I agree with this. And I had a dog in my party in PoE the whole time. He didn't fight like the DA:O dog but at least I didn't leave him in camp the whole game as a result original.gif

I still liked Morrigan :D

 

I like Eder more than Alistair. Alistar came off as a whiny bi*** while Eder is a lost soul that got my sympathies.

Edited by archangel979

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DA:I feels to me like a single player version on an MMO and thus never really kept me interested. I mean it's a cool game, nice looking and stuff, but there's no "character" to it. A bazillion of fetch quests and an open world in the style of Far Cry may appeal to some people but for me they felt really boring, really fast. DA:O though, that was awesome. I especially loved the AI system with triggers etc.

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