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RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp

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if Gromnir is claiming that there is no functional difference 'tween ie insta-kills and d&d insta-kills, then claim that folks is advocating for more d&d in their poe is NOT strawman.

Sure it is. Because claiming that we want more D&D is a blanket generalization that includes things like: wanting to force XP penalties on weapon enchantment sessions; Wanting to incorporate material components on every wizard spell; wanting strict behavior codes placed on Paladins and Clerics; and a bunch of other things that NO ONE HERE HAS SAID THEY WANTED.

 

Perhaps if Gromnir had shown a little more honesty and debate tact and said something along the lines of "yes, folks here want more D&D-like mechanics such as Hard counters and insta-kills", this discussion would have probably died down about a page later, or shortly someone came into the thread to tell Gromnir to kindly speak for himself.

 

1)  no, it does not create a blanket generalization

 

alternatively

 

2) such a generalization does not impact the strength or weakness o' the logic regarding hard counters and insta kills.  such generalizations would be a wholly different fallacy and we sure as hell ain't making such a generalization.

 

you don't like the d&d label?  is all we can see as a reason for continued obstinacy.  fine, but that ain't logic and it ain't strawman.

 

do you not understand logic... at all?  read copi.  honest.  will at least give you a start.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps tact is also not  function o' logic.  fact that you think Gromnir is mean is a problem?  (again, note the question marks as we cannot genuine be sure o' what your so-called argument is at this point.) well,  toughen up kiddo, 'cause ain't never been a logic fallacy related to lack o' sensitivity.  wanna misuse logic fallacies? then at least learn 'em first.  don't confuse being reasonable or diplomatic with logic.  

Edited by Gromnir

"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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Glorious weaponized autism in this thread.

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For Firedorn all the Lads grieve

 

This Adam woke up next to Eve.

 

But beneath leaves of Fig,

 

He found Berries and Twig,

 

So Himself off a cliff he did heave.

 

 

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1)  no, it does not create a blanket generalization

It doesn't? Ok, have it your way.

 

I can prove that Gromnir wants more D&D in PoE. And therefore it's silly that he's arguing with Stun and Luckmann, since he's in total agreement with them.

 

 

 

2) such a generalization does not impact the strength or weakness o' the logic regarding hard counters and insta kills.

Then why did you spout it? Edited by Stun

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You don't play a game for 200 hours and say it sucks :p

Sure you can. I was miserable for well over a year before I looked into getting divorced. Sticking with something horrible is all about your hope of things getting good, and very little to do with whether they are.

 

 

Bad analogy.

If you get married, you are married until you make an effort to divorce.

When you start playing Pillars of Eternity, you aren't glued to the computer until you finish it. If you feel glued to computer while playing PoE, it's probably not because it sucks.

 

 

Just get rid of the different base deflection scores of classes and put deflection back on armors. It's stupid that half of your deflection comes from talents and class choice.

 

Literally, it's that easy. Remove the damn recovery penalty from armors and instead make it a deflection penalty. It makes sense, after all. You can decide between max deflection (light armors) or max DR (plate armor) or anything inbetween.

 

 

At least this way armor is actually a choice (I can decide between better evasion or a more reliable damage reduction) and light-armored guys don't instantly drop when attacked once.

 

 

Wizards in full plate with no penalties.

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You don't play a game for 200 hours and say it sucks :p

 

Sure you can. I was miserable for well over a year before I looked into getting divorced. Sticking with something horrible is all about your hope of things getting good, and very little to do with whether they are.

Bad analogy.

If you get married, you are married until you make an effort to divorce.

When you start playing Pillars of Eternity, you aren't glued to the computer until you finish it. If you feel glued to computer while playing PoE, it's probably not because it sucks.

You're strawmanning my analogy and brushing aside my main argument. A gamer (particularly a paying customer) can play for hours upon hours in hope things will get better. It is hope, misguided or not, which makes us do things we dislike. Admittedly, this is usually something akin to gambler's fallacy, but I never said we're always logical beings. Edited by scrotiemcb

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"btw, you have vol on your side o' an argument.  that alone should give you pause."

 

Think about that when you defend  games you and I both like or criticize games we both dislike. LMAO

\

Stop being such a silly little boy.


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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"btw, you have vol on your side o' an argument.  that alone should give you pause."

 

Think about that when you defend  games you and I both like or criticize games we both dislike. LMAO

\

Stop being such a silly little boy.

on the rare occasion we agree with vol on a specific issue, we always morn how the universe makes less sense as a result o' such extraordinary accidents.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

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"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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While I just used the quiver of endless arrows, or that bow that created it's own ammunition - because I didn't want to bother with this ammo/inventory management crap. :)

 

No offense meant, just seems like a few of you folks played those games with a very different play style than most. (example the above, complaints about lack of kitting, refusal to rest).

 

I didn't know there was an endless quiver in BG1? Oh wait, there wasn't.

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The Skaen Temple is the worst dungeon because it is a large dungeon that has very disappointing loot and the worst example of copy paste encounter design in the game. On Hard difficulty there's like 70 Skaen Cultists, most are the same five classes and most encounters are makeups of these classes. It was literally the most monotonous content I played in the game. I absolutely hated it.

 

I didn't play that dungeon in the beta because of performance issues. I upgraded my PC to an i7 4790k shortly after the game came out so I could run the levels with more units. The game still runs badly in Copperlane though.

 

The Skaen Temple should have just included the room with Wymund and maybe one other room. The rest of the dungeon was ****ing pointless. I never found myself saying "this should be smaller" in any of the Infinity Engine games.

 

 

Yes, I recall doing the Skaen Temple once in the beta. Once was enough. Going through it again in the game was a chore, only saved by me being able steam roll everything and get it over and done as fast as possible.

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I'll admit I'm not entirely sure what the substance of the whole Gromnir v. Stun & Luckman debate is. It seems rather like everyone is just talking past each other. That being said, I think Gromnir is right, there's no meaningful distinction between wanting something to be more like an IE game and wanting it to be more like AD&D 2e unless those are divergent in someway.

Well, one is a phase-based tabletop RPG and the other is a RTwP PC RPG. Some mechanics obviously work differently. The gameplay feel is also completely different. There's your divergence.

 

I don't care about D&D, I do care about gameplay feel.

 

actual, you kinda did. you insisted that thieves guild and eyeless were better because it had more steps. depending on you count, the optional steps in blood legacy can total 'bout same as total.

No. For one thing, the Cult of the Unseeing Eye can be completed like this. Witness Saar's preaching in the Temple District, go to the temple where the investigator dude tells you to meet him. Talk to that guy. Go to the Sewers, meet Keldorn. Go into the Lower Crypts or whatever and find the Cult of the Unseeing Eye. Attack them. Kill the Beholder. Job done.

 

That is the simplest way you can complete the quest without even going below to do the areas below and the whole Rod and Ilmater stuff. The thing that makes it more complex is the lower levels and how you can go to the Ilmater Shrine get the other rod half and use that on the creature and then give the rod back to the dudes at the Shrine to free them (or not).

 

The Blood Legacy doesn't have that kind of depth with a completely different sub-quest attached to it. Mae'Vars was lots of little quests as steps in an overarching quest.

 

To me a simple quest that has multiple choices and multiple resolutions isn't as fun to play because I'm only going to be choosing one of those choices and seeing one of those resolutions. To me that is secondary to a more complex quest structure like the aforementioned. Not all quests have to be like that but most of Obsidian's quests are structured/designed in a similar manner. They're simpler quests with multiple choice and alternate resolutions.

 

"The investigation is optional. I posted that earlier in the thread. The quest itself is pretty straightforward as far as progressing through it goes but the fact that townsfolk have information on the quest is good design."

 

am gonna stop and see if you see the conflict with earlier sensuki observations.

The Witcher investigation stuff is also completely different. There's the autopsy quest in TW1 which you need to do certain things and learn certain information to solve 'correctly'. There's also two completely different ways to do that - one through investigation and the other through exploration. You can completely go off on your own tangent and conclude that any number of various things happened or various people were to blame and the result can lead to you killing the wrong person and whether the real killer gets the jump on you later on in the game.

 

In comparison, the investigation in the Blood Legacy quest is completely optional and has absolutely no effect on the quest's outcome. The reason why it is good design is it offers good natural reactivity from a location design point of view, and it's good to see that, but there's a next level that has been achieved by other games.

Edited by Sensuki
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I'll admit I'm not entirely sure what the substance of the whole Gromnir v. Stun & Luckman debate is. It seems rather like everyone is just talking past each other. That being said, I think Gromnir is right, there's no meaningful distinction between wanting something to be more like an IE game and wanting it to be more like AD&D 2e unless those are divergent in someway.

 

No one has asked for more D&D in PoE in this thread. Fact. I like the different types of ammunition in the IE games where I can have my characters shoot fireballs from their bow then instantly change to poison arrows then change to something else because I have three quiver slots where I can place three different types of ammunition. How is this only D&D? It's not. It's part of the IE games. Just because it's part of the IE games doesn't make it D&D.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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ps am not certain how funny we find sensuki complaints about quest design given our perspective o' having actual followed the message boards during and after bg2 development as well as observing the development o' poe.

 

...

 

sure enough we got sensuki lamenting that obsidian didn't provide enough eyeless kinda quests. could be a vaudeville actor doing rehearsed schtick if we weren't convinced he is serious.

 

*shrug*

 

almost makes us feel sympathy for obsidian. almost.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I think you're confusing Unseeing Eye/Mae'Vars quests with dungeon locations themselves. I don't think there's anything wrong with the style of areas Obsidian ended up with, it's a question of the quality of the content (and I guess the systems that hold them up).

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The Skaen Temple is the worst dungeon because it is a large dungeon that has very disappointing loot and the worst example of copy paste encounter design in the game. On Hard difficulty there's like 70 Skaen Cultists, most are the same five classes and most encounters are makeups of these classes. It was literally the most monotonous content I played in the game. I absolutely hated it.

 

I didn't play that dungeon in the beta because of performance issues. I upgraded my PC to an i7 4790k shortly after the game came out so I could run the levels with more units. The game still runs badly in Copperlane though.

 

The Skaen Temple should have just included the room with Wymund and maybe one other room. The rest of the dungeon was ****ing pointless. I never found myself saying "this should be smaller" in any of the Infinity Engine games.

 

 

Yes, I recall doing the Skaen Temple once in the beta. Once was enough. Going through it again in the game was a chore, only saved by me being able steam roll everything and get it over and done as fast as possible.

 

 

That however I fully agree with. The dungeon felt more endless than the actual Endless Paths. Doesn't help that it makes no sense for the Skaen cultists to dwarf the population of Dyrford. 

 

With that said, some IE games had long stretches. The Underdark and the kingdom of those shark-men I never remember in BG2 got tedious, so did Carceri and some optional areas in PS:T.

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I found myself agreeing with most of the points but rolling my eyes with how blown out of proportion they are.

 

 

Welcome to rpgcodex.  I had to stand alone arguing that dragon age inquisition was not the worst thing bioware had ever done.  I did not love that game like the first, but people tried to toss so much bile on bioware they made claims that inquisition was WORSE than da2, which was a damn lie.  It was not THAT bad.

 

 

I did agree with many of the combat mechanics, particularly for the mage.  I like having more summons and out of combat debuffs.   I don't give a damn if he is not perfectly balanced because of it, it's not a multiplayer game, deal with it and give me More POWER !!!!!!!!

 

 

 

In the past couple of years, the best gameplay mechanics in an rpg goes to

 

divinity original sin

 

 

and best story goes to...

 

 

pillars of eternity (so far, still not done) - Not like the best ever, but I found the story more engaging than dragon age inquisition and divinity original sin

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This review is SPOT ON

 

Regarding story, the story of POE is pretty meh. Like the review says, the only motivation to keep going is that you might go crazy, although the game doesn't show you as going crazy, and even tells of other guys who are like you who don't go crazy anyway. it's all kinda meh.

 

Wastland2 has a better storyline. Also meh, but slightly slightly less meh than POE.

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stuff

 

and again, you seem preoccupied with quantity.  is many small (fed ex) quests attached to thieves guild and many optional stuff in lower levels o' eyeless.  great for many. compared to eyeless, which is almost complete on rails and has very little investigation, the blood legacy has more optional dialogues at beginning and end and you get to actual investigate.  what you uncover during the investigation won't change the outcomes, but more important and more realistic, what you learn will give you reasons to choose different outcomes.  we have different possible access points to the skaen temple, rather than the magic key approach from eyeless,  and we were given options that involved skill checks or sneaking that allowed us to engage in very few combats (unlike eyeless).  but again, is opine.

 

 "lots of little quests "

 

"The thing that makes it more complex is the lower levels..."

 

these is precisely 'bout more regarding o' the conflicting language you utilize. 

 

can't speak to witcher as we never played those games.  your bg2 examples, however, is less than compelling.

 

as noted, obsidian specific observed that they faced a choice with poe design to include more eyeless/durlags kinda quests and locales.  am not the least bit confused.  the developers had a choice to create more opportunities for exploration by creating a larger number o' smaller locations and less involved quests, or they could have a fewer locales with extreme dense questing.  is zero sum.  again, is kinda axiomatic that if you offer more o' the minor quests spread out cross a larger number o' maps, you cannot have such as many dense locales such as eyeless/durlags.  people clamored for exploration, so obsidain chose the middle path.

 

 

I'll admit I'm not entirely sure what the substance of the whole Gromnir v. Stun & Luckman debate is. It seems rather like everyone is just talking past each other. That being said, I think Gromnir is right, there's no meaningful distinction between wanting something to be more like an IE game and wanting it to be more like AD&D 2e unless those are divergent in someway.

 

No one has asked for more D&D in PoE in this thread. Fact. I like the different types of ammunition in the IE games where I can have my characters shoot fireballs from their bow then instantly change to poison arrows then change to something else because I have three quiver slots where I can place three different types of ammunition. How is this only D&D? It's not. It's part of the IE games. Just because it's part of the IE games doesn't make it D&D.

 

 

 your response was unresponsive.  illathid pointed out, once again, that the distinction o' whether hard counters and insta-kills in the ie games is d&d or ie game legacies is complete irrelevant as to whether or not those features is having merit.  to be more dismissive o' a feature simple 'cause o' the d&d label is irrational and illogical ad to quibble over such is just as bad.  the d&d origin o' the ie game hard counters and and insta-kill examples folks were sharing as superior to poe approach is both undeniable and ultimately irrelevant. 

 

sheesh.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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and again, you seem preoccupied with quantity.  is many small (fed ex) quests attached to thieves guild and many optional stuff in lower levels o' eyeless.  great for many. compared to eyeless, which is almost complete on rails and has very little investigation, the blood legacy has more optional dialogues at beginning and end and you get to actual investigate.  what you uncover during the investigation won't change the outcomes, but more important and more realistic, what you learn will give you reasons to choose different outcomes.  we have different possible access points to the skaen temple, rather than the magic key approach from eyeless,  and we were given options that involved skill checks or sneaking that allowed us to engage in very few combats (unlike eyeless).  but again, is opine.

 

 "lots of little quests "

 

"The thing that makes it more complex is the lower levels..."

 

these is precisely 'bout more regarding o' the conflicting language you utilize.

No, not really. It speaks back to my overproduced statement from the post you originally quoted where they were probably told to stick to simple and formulaic quest design to meet their production schedule. If anything, they were concerned about quantity, trying to get a large number of quests rather than good quests. And besides, the Blood Legacy is one quest. That is the only quest in the game like that and it was developed during the vertical slice so they had a lot of time to iterate on it over and over and keep improving it, and to really ground it in the Dyrford.

 

You may prefer quests like the Blood Legacy. I liked some things about it too, but it was the only quest in the game like that. Even more of those would have been nice too.

 

Regarding the Unseeing Eye the lower levels =/= more. You could technically compare the lower levels Unseeing Eye content to the optional parts of the Skaen Temple and Dyrford Crossing. Guess which quest wins as far as good optional content goes? Unseeing Eye by a country mile.

 

Mae'Var's Guildhall had lots of little quests, sure but you could technically compare them to the faction quests in Defiance Bay which essentially boil down to "do these two fetch quests for me - okay we're you're allies now". Mae'Var's is much more than that. You have to report to Renal Bloodscalp, then go to Mae'Var's Guildhall, he assigns you a bunch of quests to earn your loyalty. Those quests (except for Rayic Gethras) have C&C. Then you can choose to side with Mae'Var if you like. With the Defiance Bay stuff, the moment you accept the first quest you're locked into that faction and you don't really have any option other than to do those couple of quests and that's it. Apparently no one looked at the BG2 quests to see how you could better realize such types of quest lines :/

 

can't speak to witcher as we never played those games.  your bg2 examples, however, is less than compelling.

I don't believe so.

 

as noted, obsidian specific observed that they faced a choice with poe design to include more eyeless/durlags kinda quests and locales.  am not the least bit confused.  the developers had a choice to create more opportunities for exploration by creating a larger number o' smaller locations and less involved quests, or they could have a fewer locales with extreme dense questing.  is zero sum.  again, is kinda axiomatic that if you offer more o' the minor quests spread out cross a larger number o' maps, you cannot have such as many dense locales such as eyeless/durlags.  people clamored for exploration, so obsidain chose the middle path.

Yes, they definitely hit the mark of 'somewhere in the middle' and the result is a pretty bland in between that is worse than both extremes IMO. However, quest design and content style aren't even close to my primary concerns with the game.

Edited by Sensuki

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*sigh*

 

multiple ways to complete a quest is a good thing, no? for a codexian grognard, the fact that you need not adhere to the narrative rails should be a positive. need gaal's key to open a magically locked door is exact the kinda thing codexians typical rail against, yes? also, we already noted that bg2 had larger scope. oh, and we suspect that the additional steps o' final act slipped your notice. however, it is good you note the consequences o' poe resolutions that is absent in the typical ie games.

 

again, we see lotta opinions... and some hypocrisy.

 

and "worst dungeon" language is exact the kinda empty criticism we is referencing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Excuse me, but I never said that choice OR multiple resolutions were bad things. They are good things. Personally though I'll take better gameplay content with more linearity over worse gameplay content with more choice and multiple outcomes IF I have to choose between them.

 

You said BG2 the game had larger scope. Yes it did. I was however talking about quest complexity and to me that involves steps required to complete a quests, quest overlap/intertwining and branching.

 

I have not played the end of Pillars of Eternity, I stopped playing during Act 3. Maybe there is some better content there. I couldn't say. Act 1 and 2 quests were all pretty basic with a step or two with some choices.

 

The Skaen Temple is the worst dungeon because it is a large dungeon that has very disappointing loot and the worst example of copy paste encounter design in the game. On Hard difficulty there's like 70 Skaen Cultists, most are the same five classes and most encounters are makeups of these classes. It was literally the most monotonous content I played in the game. I absolutely hated it.

 

I didn't play that dungeon in the beta because of performance issues. I upgraded my PC to an i7 4790k shortly after the game came out so I could run the levels with more units. The game still runs badly in Copperlane though.

 

The Skaen Temple should have just included the room with Wymund and maybe one other room. The rest of the dungeon was ****ing pointless. I never found myself saying "this should be smaller" in any of the Infinity Engine games.

Just as a small counterexample... What about the mines in BG? Kobalds, Kobalds, more Kobalds and then some more Kobalds. A few slimes... and then the boss. Who summons Kobalds. That dungeon was pretty egregiously copy-paste, no? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, it's been a while. I enjoyed it, don't get me wrong (as I enjoyed Skaen), but it was a pretty boring dungeon, all things considered.

 

But if I am remembering right.. Does that put PoE off the hook for Skaen? Depends on your point of view, I guess. Obviously just because BG had a boring dungeon doesn't mean it's OK for PoE to do the same. But I think the counterexample is useful just to point out... Most (if not all IMO) of the varied encounters people typically mention to contrast with PoE are from BG 2, not BG 1. And (as I've said elsewhere) I don't think that's really a fair comparison, as PoE is more analogous to BG 1 in terms of level range and such. Not to mention that since they did invent all these mechanics from scratch (as opposed to using a tried and true system like AD&D) there are bound to be some growing pains.

 

Now - I still think there are a lot of design issues with PoE that have been discussed and will continue to be discussed. But one boring dungeon does not make the game bad... not that that's what you were saying. You were just answering a question. But as you described the Skaen Temple I thought of the Kobold mines and thought I'd mention it haha.

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 your response was unresponsive.  illathid pointed out, once again, that the distinction o' whether hard counters and insta-kills in the ie games is d&d or ie game legacies is complete irrelevant as to whether or not those features is having merit.  to be more dismissive o' a feature simple 'cause o' the d&d label is irrational and illogical ad to quibble over such is just as bad.  the d&d origin o' the ie game hard counters and and insta-kill examples folks were sharing as superior to poe approach is both undeniable and ultimately irrelevant. 

 

sheesh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Now you're being obtuse Gromnir. And it's what you've been doing in the last few pages of this thread. We've had multiple people point out your fallacies and you can step off your treadmill of delusion.

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I'll admit I'm not entirely sure what the substance of the whole Gromnir v. Stun & Luckman debate is. It seems rather like everyone is just talking past each other. That being said, I think Gromnir is right, there's no meaningful distinction between wanting something to be more like an IE game and wanting it to be more like AD&D 2e unless those are divergent in someway.

It's a stupid argument that has gone on far too long. :p

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Going to the argument that you can't play the game for 100 hours and then say it sucks, that is and isn't true.  I don't think the game sucks- it actually IS good.  The problem is, it ISN'T great, it isn't amazing.  It's about whether, after that 50-100 hours, you want to do it again.  And, like I, and other people said earlier, I don't want to.  I played it with a 2nd character, and just didn't feel like continuing.  I have played many RPGs multiple times over, if I REALLY liked them.  THAT is the difference.  I'm thinking, planning on replaying a 300 hour game (BG) even though I have played it from beginning to end 3-4 times.  I played it multiple times when I first got introduced to it (to figure out the ruleset) and have played it multiple times since then.  Even with mods, I don't feel I would be impelled to do the same with POE.

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"1 is 1"

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Just as a small counterexample... What about the mines in BG? Kobalds, Kobalds, more Kobalds and then some more Kobalds. A few slimes... and then the boss. Who summons Kobalds. That dungeon was pretty egregiously copy-paste, no? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, it's been a while. I enjoyed it, don't get me wrong (as I enjoyed Skaen), but it was a pretty boring dungeon, all things considered.

The Nashkell mines encompasses four levels total and doesn't take very long to complete. Takes probably 15-30 minutes *MAX*.

 

Level 1 was just miners. You're given a dagger to give to a miner on a lower floor.

 

Level 2 has a miner getting attacked by a Kobold group, but it also has non-combat encounters - there's a round room deeper with guards and miners, and you give Kylee back his dagger. Yes, there's only Kobolds on this level. This level takes a few minutes to complete, tops.

 

Level 3 has the mine and cave ecologies with the bridge in the middle. There's a ghoul, some huge spiders, kobolds and Kobold Commandos. This one takes a bit longer. There's also Joseph's Greenstone Ring which is for a quest.

 

Level 4 is the weird Cave with Mulahey. The exterior has a Ghoul and some Oozes at the back entrance.

 

The inside of the Cave has a recruitable NPC (Xan) and some alright treasure (Ring of Holiness from Mulahey, Short Sword +1, various Wizard scrolls, gems and gold.

 

But if I am remembering right.. Does that put PoE off the hook for Skaen? Depends on your point of view, I guess. Obviously just because BG had a boring dungeon doesn't mean it's OK for PoE to do the same. But I think the counterexample is useful just to point out... Most (if not all IMO) of the varied encounters people typically mention to contrast with PoE are from BG 2, not BG 1. And (as I've said elsewhere) I don't think that's really a fair comparison, as PoE is more analogous to BG 1 in terms of level range and such. Not to mention that since they did invent all these mechanics from scratch (as opposed to using a tried and true system like AD&D) there are bound to be some growing pains.

Now, let's compare.

 

Nashkell Mines - made in 1998. First IE game (BG1). Fairly primitive dungeon design compared to Tales of the Sword Coast, Icewind Dale 1 & 2 and BG2. Still manages to enclude neutral NPCs, minor quests and overall be less annoying to explore than the Skaen Dungeon simply due to thinner content density and taking way less time to complete. I was never annoyed by this level.

 

Temple of Skaen has the Sacrificial Pit, which is a really good non-combat 'encounter' and it includes a Scripted Interaction (which is more an RP thing. Personally I found that particular one kinda pointless) but it's a real grind to explore the whole way through. It takes forever to do (if you're trying to complete it, and the encounters aside from the Sacrificial Pit) are completely uninteresting.

 

I can handle some pretty easy to complete content that takes 15-30 minutes without getting annoyed but neverending tedious encounters with little to no reward really rubs one the wrong way. Compare it to ANY dungeon in Icewind Dale, and every dungeon felt more rewarding.

 

Now - I still think there are a lot of design issues with PoE that have been discussed and will continue to be discussed. But one boring dungeon does not make the game bad... not that that's what you were saying. You were just answering a question. But as you described the Skaen Temple I thought of the Kobold mines and thought I'd mention it haha.

I must have missed the part where I said the Skaen Temple is the reason the game is bad tongue.png I have been saying that the issues with locations and quests matter very little to me compared to the issues with the system design and the narrative.

 

The Skaen Temple is the first dungeon made for the game. So I suppose that's why it's the worst, although the various Od Nua levels are also bad but less so due to being smaller. Obsidian have the benefit of having been able to experience all of the content produced from the Infinity Engine games, and all relative RPGs since and instead they have not learned from all of the good things done in those collective games and instead go back to very basic area design with their fluff C&C and RP stuff on top. That disappoints me.

 

However, as I said on an earlier page:

 

I was talking about the effect of very strict production on area design. I think that they could maybe loosen it a bit more and get much more fruitful results, but also I believe Act 1 was developed right at the end of the project, so you'll probably see better content in the expansion simply based on designers being more familiar with the tools and being able to implement content quicker - thus possibly more complex areas and quests in the future. They will also hopefully take a lot of the criticism on board.

 

Unfortunately though that comes second to the actual moment to moment gameplay for me which is my main issue with the game. I'm not going to hold my breath but I don't believe the 'style' of combat this game has will ever change. It's always going to be mostly positioning and strategy, followed by a rote script. That is simply what the system design promotes.

If combat was fun and tactical and the narrative wasn't problematic, I would be more forgiving.

Edited by Sensuki

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"claims that inquisition was WORSE than da2, which was a damn lie.  It was not THAT bad."

 

Except DA3 is WORSE than DA2. If you think otherwise you are WRONG.


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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"claims that inquisition was WORSE than da2, which was a damn lie.  It was not THAT bad."

 

Except DA3 is WORSE than DA2. If you think otherwise you are WRONG.

 

I'm not sure I agree, but at some point we're just comparing the shape of turds and I have to ask myself what kind of cognitive and developmental disability we're suffering from. It's like two naked downies in a mud-pit arguing over who has the prettier turd.

 

 

And that's when you realize that's not mud.

 


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Going to the argument that you can't play the game for 100 hours and then say it sucks, that is and isn't true.  I don't think the game sucks- it actually IS good.  The problem is, it ISN'T great, it isn't amazing.  It's about whether, after that 50-100 hours, you want to do it again.

 

After thirty-odd pages I think Galt hits the nail on the head. This is precisely the point.

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