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Terikan

I keep looking for a reason to craft something... and failing.

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It's really really hard for a CRPG developer to make a crafting system that (1) feels worthwhile, (2) isn't totally overpowered, and (3) can safely be ignored by players who'd rather not spend their time picking flowers.

 

Then FFS they should just get rid of it.

 

Wow, phew, this was an outburst... sorry...

But it's true. Why does every game developer feel like an enchanting/crafting system is mandatory in a modern game release? It's totally not. Crafting is cool in sandbox games, but this is a cRPG. There's no reason why we need crafting; just get rid of it. It destroys the fun of discovering new unique magic items anyway ("Wooohooo, a magic item ... errr ... never mind, it got the same enchants as my old item.")

 

 

I never understood why games like The Witcher had a crafting system.

 

The answer is pretty simple; because some players really like it. The same is true for in-game houses, or romances. It's there to appeal to a portion of the player base. The fact that you don't like it doesn't really matter; it didn't stop you from buying or playing the game, and it is easy to ignore. If it does encourage more people to buy the game or increase their enjoyment, then it's a win from the developer's standpoint.

 

As for crafting in The Witcher, that was one of those rare games where I actually felt like I needed crafting. It proved highly beneficial during the toughest fights.

 

 

Yeah, crafting in The Witcher was needed. But it was also terribly, terribly inconvenient and I absolutely hated every minute I had to invest into it. And as you mentioned; on higher difficulties you were required to use it. At least the crafting in PoE is simple and straightforward and doesn't require me to constantly micromanage my inventory and resources. I just go to the menu and enchant what I want. Done.

 

I'd say the enchanting in PoE is better than potion making in The Witcher for that regard.

Edited by Zwiebelchen

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I think enchanting and crafting are quite usefull as they give you an edge, without making you totally over powered. I personally enjoy crafting / modifying my own gear as It gives each item a personal touch.  

 

Potions&scrolls are a mixed bag. Some are really usefull while others seem pointless. Food items are also a nice idea, but currently the gameplay doesn't really require me to use them.

 

Maybe if resting in the wilderness was more dangerous like in baldur's gate where resting in the wilderness areas / dungeons was never 100 % safe, In bg1 & bg2 the party could be easily ambushed by some wondering monsters. And even travelling between areas could trigger these random encounters.

 

Does anyone know why did obsidian choose not to implement random encounters?

 

I think the potential ambush while resting would make scrolls, potions more atractive to the player. More potions, scrolls and other supplementary  resources your party has, less often they must take the risk of camping in the wilderness. And why not make the whole survival skill more attractive option as well. Like higher your survival skill, less often you trigger random encounters.

 

Maybe if player's survival skill was really high, the player could trigger even some kind of postive encounters while traveling / camping. Like a friendly ranger pops up and gives you some herbs or something like that.

Edited by Carados
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Crafting weapons and armor to their maximum potential is a no-brainer.

 

Yep. Get the best weapons/armors/shields that don't already have a quality enchantment (but have other unique enchantments), and add a quality enchantment on top of it.

 

There's no real reason not to do it.

 

Agreed ... on the other hand, it's largely the only thing really worth doing, imo. And none of them are very interesting, just important because of mechanics reasons (accuracy accuracy accuracy).

 

I'm sure on PotD food/scrolls and other buffs are much more vital at times but you can just buy a lot of them vs. crafting them. I didn't find crafting useless but except in the most punishing circumstances (early PotD and/or small party/solo), it's just not very interesting and certainly not vital to what might be considered the "average" player. And I usually love crafting in rpg's. It's often one of my favorite parts.

 

Although tis true one of my fave things about such in other games is the hunt for the ingredients, which in PoE felt somewhat lackluster. I would have preferred being able to get more as random loot off enemies, containers and more to pick in the "wild" etc. vs.  being so much in the stores or a random Stronghold thingie.


“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts

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I don't find crafting especially necessary, but it can be handy to add a property or two to a found item, or to allow you to use a weapon or armour type that hasn't dropped anything up to scratch. As crafting systems go I find it fairly tolerable, though it's certainly not needed.

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Crafting can certainly be useful in PoE, but I find that it detracts from the game as a whole, as it makes the unique items in the game, less... unique!

 

I think this is a general problem with a number of the stretch goals.  Caed Nua is pretty cool, but I think it would be better if it were divided up and the same levels were used to expand the other dungeons in the game (this might also help with xp balance).  The keep is totally pointless, and all the coding used for it would be better spent adding to other parts of the game.  The area would have better just as a third village, or a maybe another section of Defiance bay.  

 

On the other hand, would the game have gotten 4 mil in funding without these stretch goals?

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Does anyone know why did obsidian choose not to implement random encounters?

 

I suspect it was because they essentially eliminated XP for combat.

 

I do wish they would have thrown in a few more event-triggered combats though, particularly when traveling between maps.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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I'm sure on PotD food/scrolls and other buffs are much more vital at times but you can just buy a lot of them vs. crafting them. I didn't find crafting useless but except in the most punishing circumstances (early PotD and/or small party/solo), it's just not very interesting and certainly not vital to what might be considered the "average" player. And I usually love crafting in rpg's. It's often one of my favorite parts.

 

To me, something that might have made crafting more fun would be summonables. I.e. create a potion or scroll that can summon a temporary ally for a fight.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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I don't think that would have helped me, I'm afraid. Part of the reason I don't really use crafting is because I find it daunting. I already have enough trouble remembering every potion and food item that exists in the game, I find it even worse when you also have to keep track of the various recipes and ingredients. I find it easier to just buy everything already made. It could be a bit of a dilemna if no shop proposed ingredients but that you could find them in the wild rather easily, thus saving on the gold at the cost of a little bit more ingredient hunting. I think that was one of the reasons I kind of liked the crafting in The Witcher (although evidently in that case, crafting was also the only way of getting potions, so...).

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To me, something that might have made crafting more fun would be summonables. I.e. create a potion or scroll that can summon a temporary ally for a fight.

I'd actually have liked that more than the figurines - for one thing it could have required more points in Lore for all chrs. to be able to use, vs. buying all the figurines and just dumping them on all chrs as perm. quick items.

 

Anyway it just would have been nice if some crafting had felt more unique/fun, vs. largely about utility.


“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts

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To me, something that might have made crafting more fun would be summonables. I.e. create a potion or scroll that can summon a temporary ally for a fight.

I'd actually have liked that more than the figurines - for one thing it could have required more points in Lore for all chrs. to be able to use, vs. buying all the figurines and just dumping them on all chrs as perm. quick items.

 

Anyway it just would have been nice if some crafting had felt more unique/fun, vs. largely about utility.

 

 

I hope that they will add option to find more unique formulas like the one in that ruin near Dyrford, which would need some very rare/unique ingredients so that you can put them only one or max two items. It would had made enchanting weapons and armors much more interesting.

 

I can't think anything that would make foods, potions and scrolls more interesting until you actually need them to complete the game, as now crafting them is nice to have but probably don't need it feature. 

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It's really really hard for a CRPG developer to make a crafting system that (1) feels worthwhile, (2) isn't totally overpowered, and (3) can safely be ignored by players who'd rather not spend their time picking flowers.

 

I think BG2 did it very well with Cromwell. First you are not the smith...thus avoiding a conflict with RP. You found the stuff and brought it to him. Only a few weapons, very powerfull but also easily to miss, meaning the people who got into it and explored everything got a reward. You could easily ignore it also. Like the hammer Crom Faeyr, do i really want the weapon or do i prefer the two strength items on my chars? GIve i back the silver blade or keep it? It was open to you and not overdone. I liked that.

 

For my first playthrough i did craft a bit, or better upgraded existing weapons. Otherwise i didn´t use it.

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"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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I think BG2 did it very well with Cromwell. First you are not the smith...thus avoiding a conflict with RP. You found the stuff and brought it to him. Only a few weapons, very powerfull but also easily to miss, meaning the people who got into it and explored everything got a reward. You could easily ignore it also. Like the hammer Crom Faeyr, do i really want the weapon or do i prefer the two strength items on my chars? GIve i back the silver blade or keep it? It was open to you and not overdone. I liked that.

 

For my first playthrough i did craft a bit, or better upgraded existing weapons. Otherwise i didn´t use it.

 

I'd like something like this as well. A handful of unique and fairly powerful items that you can craft from various ingredients - or choose to use them for something else. Something that makes you weigh the pros and cons of crafting that particular item. I wouldn't mind the current system as is if they added to it with something like this. As it stands, and as others have said, you don't get that 'wow' factor when you can easily craft stuff that's as good as or better than what you find - and none of it's particularly exceptional (pun not actually intended).

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I think BG2 did it very well with Cromwell. First you are not the smith...thus avoiding a conflict with RP. You found the stuff and brought it to him. Only a few weapons, very powerfull but also easily to miss, meaning the people who got into it and explored everything got a reward. You could easily ignore it also. Like the hammer Crom Faeyr, do i really want the weapon or do i prefer the two strength items on my chars? GIve i back the silver blade or keep it? It was open to you and not overdone. I liked that.

 

For my first playthrough i did craft a bit, or better upgraded existing weapons. Otherwise i didn´t use it.

 

I'd like something like this as well. A handful of unique and fairly powerful items that you can craft from various ingredients - or choose to use them for something else. Something that makes you weigh the pros and cons of crafting that particular item. I wouldn't mind the current system as is if they added to it with something like this. As it stands, and as others have said, you don't get that 'wow' factor when you can easily craft stuff that's as good as or better than what you find - and none of it's particularly exceptional (pun not actually intended).

 

 

The gear being kinda "bland" seems to be a popular opinion. Sure, the first playthrough i had a hard time sometimes even making out what was better and what was not. (the item stat bug didn´t help). Iconic weapons don´t need to be overpowered if the combat system is solid.

 

Right now i´m playing thru BG2 EE (just to check out the EE part..and..no..don´t buy it) and crafting my red dragon armor feels as good as it did over 10 years ago because it is made of one bad ass dragon i just killed or having The Equalizer made because i chose that path and explored everything is rewarding.

 

It does make the game a tad easier, but never to the extend that you steamroll it, not to mention the harder difficulties.

 

So yes, something like this would enhance the game, in my opinion.


"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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Honestly, the crafting being available and there is fine. 

If you don't see the point in using it, at no point during the game are you *forced* to use it.

I see it more as a tool to imbue my existing gear and make that marginally better, instead of a way to create all-powerful items from scratch.

 

i prefer this system over the one in BG2, where you simply had a static set of items to craft, most of which weren't that great in the first place, and the majority of the ones that were great to have, you had to wait till the beginning of the expansion, because only cespenar was able to create them.

Honestly, the only items i feel were great to get and were available for crafting at cromwell were crom feyr, and the short bow of gesen. 


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I really can't express how pointless crafting and enchanting are. Also, the stronghold. As soon as I saw these stretch goals going up in the Kickstarter I thought, why are modern RPG fans so obsessed with these silly housekeeping and flower-picking mini-games that only serve to distract from the game itself and/or diminish the fun of unique items, all while being incredibly boring. I guess they turned out okay for what they are, there was no way I would like them because I'm against all of these things in principle; and no surprise they seem to add nothing of value to the game and take plenty away from it. I even resent the mega-dungeon a bit, because as I saw that number of levels rising, I saw the quality of each level decreasing. I thought, Durlag's tower didn't need over a dozen levels...

 

Anyway, what's done is done, and as soon as the stretch goals appeared there was no way to stop it. I do sometimes close my eyes and imagine the game without crafting and enchanting, with a unique item system that involved only finding actually unique items or reassembling epic items with the aid of a blacksmith. Oh BG2, you did this so right. Simple is definitely better in this case I think. Also, there's no thrill in finding unique items when you can almost always make something better on your own through enchanting. As for the stronghold, I really feel that it could just disappear and the game would be better for it. Again, I am biased against the mechanic in general, but I just don't see what it adds apart from some weird mini-game that involves clicking the same few buttons again and again in order to put loot and gold in some treasure chest. Endless paths could be put anywhere else in the game, like beneath Dyrford. The bounties could be posted in Defiance Bay (and also in Dyrford).

 

I do wonder how many people actually think that these mechanics add enough to the game to justify their existence. Obviously this is set in stone for PoE, but if enough people clearly dislike these things and express that to Obsidian, then maybe they can be removed or changed for PoE2.  This thread is about crafting primarily, but it seems I'm not the only one who finds enchanting to be pointless.

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Honestly, the crafting being available and there is fine. 

If you don't see the point in using it, at no point during the game are you *forced* to use it.

I see it more as a tool to imbue my existing gear and make that marginally better, instead of a way to create all-powerful items from scratch.

 

i prefer this system over the one in BG2, where you simply had a static set of items to craft, most of which weren't that great in the first place, and the majority of the ones that were great to have, you had to wait till the beginning of the expansion, because only cespenar was able to create them.

Honestly, the only items i feel were great to get and were available for crafting at cromwell were crom feyr, and the short bow of gesen. 

 

I agree with you on your first points. They can just stick to their current crafting system as far as i care, i just think a deeper system would add more to the game. Nothing more.

You are also right that you don´t need to use it, as i didn´t most of the game, so..it is kinda pointless in the sense that you don´t really gain anything from it. (where you did get better weapons in BG2 as an example)

 

I do have to disagree with the BG2 craft items though, most of them were very useful the dragon armors were great, Gesens bow was awesome, Crom Faeyr was your weapon against Golems and Trolls, Silver swords was almost instant death against low lvl enemies, the Wave was one of the most powerfull weapons in the game. That is hardly useless, however you could do easily without them. Thats the whole point. You got reward for doing it, but you could go without it, that was very well handled i think.

 

And yes Caspenar made them even better and had new ones, which however were rather easily obtained in ToB, but the mainfocus of ToB was combat, so that came naturally. (you still could miss a lot of stuff though)

 

Anyway i´m not against PoE crafting system, i just wish it would have more depth and there would be some iconic items in the game. Thats all :)


"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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I think BG2 did it very well with Cromwell.

That wasn't a "crafting system" though, more like a collection of minor side-quests spanning multiple chapters and rewarding exploration.

 

I think the only crafting I enjoyed besides The Witcher's system was the armor/weapon making in NWN2, with the multiple materials. Of course, it may have been because the choice was most often a complete no-brainer... what was the name of that metal which reduced the weight category of the armor by a factor of one?

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Honestly, the crafting being available and there is fine. 

If you don't see the point in using it, at no point during the game are you *forced* to use it.

I see it more as a tool to imbue my existing gear and make that marginally better, instead of a way to create all-powerful items from scratch.

 

i prefer this system over the one in BG2, where you simply had a static set of items to craft, most of which weren't that great in the first place, and the majority of the ones that were great to have, you had to wait till the beginning of the expansion, because only cespenar was able to create them.

Honestly, the only items i feel were great to get and were available for crafting at cromwell were crom feyr, and the short bow of gesen. 

 

I agree with you on your first points. They can just stick to their current crafting system as far as i care, i just think a deeper system would add more to the game. Nothing more.

You are also right that you don´t need to use it, as i didn´t most of the game, so..it is kinda pointless in the sense that you don´t really gain anything from it. (where you did get better weapons in BG2 as an example)

 

I do have to disagree with the BG2 craft items though, most of them were very useful the dragon armors were great, Gesens bow was awesome, Crom Faeyr was your weapon against Golems and Trolls, Silver swords was almost instant death against low lvl enemies, the Wave was one of the most powerfull weapons in the game. That is hardly useless, however you could do easily without them. Thats the whole point. You got reward for doing it, but you could go without it, that was very well handled i think.

 

And yes Caspenar made them even better and had new ones, which however were rather easily obtained in ToB, but the mainfocus of ToB was combat, so that came naturally. (you still could miss a lot of stuff though)

 

Anyway i´m not against PoE crafting system, i just wish it would have more depth and there would be some iconic items in the game. Thats all :)

 

 

I suppose the dragon armors were nice, i've never had much use for them though since i never take a lot of characters in my party that wear such heavy armor, and since my main PC for most of my playthroughs is some form cleric, i prefer getting the Armor of faith +3, which is much easier to get early on in the game, has the same defense as the shadow scale armor, and i find the +1 saving throws is more useful then the 50% fire/acid resistance.

I don't think i've ever used the wave except for on one playthrough where i threw it on minsc, same thing for the silver sword.

 

That said, in pillars i have used the crafting system on almost all the armor/weapons my party is equipped with, even the items you can find buy that have good enchantments on them already can usually be improved with elemental lash for more damage, an added stat bonus, or proofed for extra DR against a single damage type.


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I think BG2 did it very well with Cromwell.

That wasn't a "crafting system" though, more like a collection of minor side-quests spanning multiple chapters and rewarding exploration.

 

I think the only crafting I enjoyed besides The Witcher's system was the armor/weapon making in NWN2, with the multiple materials. Of course, it may have been because the choice was most often a complete no-brainer... what was the name of that metal which reduced the weight category of the armor by a factor of one?

 

 

I disagree, it was  a crafting system, you could make a weapon etc out of parts you found, the only difference was, that you didn´t made them, you had to turn them in. Which i prefered because of RP aspects. (Why am i suddenly a smith?)

 

The witcher handled it very well, but considering the story with the Witcher he is needed to know how to improve his weapons, its part of his "job".

 

It was Mithral, but it made it not zero...kinda like 2/3 of the weight or something like that.

 

 

 

Honestly, the crafting being available and there is fine. 

If you don't see the point in using it, at no point during the game are you *forced* to use it.

I see it more as a tool to imbue my existing gear and make that marginally better, instead of a way to create all-powerful items from scratch.

 

i prefer this system over the one in BG2, where you simply had a static set of items to craft, most of which weren't that great in the first place, and the majority of the ones that were great to have, you had to wait till the beginning of the expansion, because only cespenar was able to create them.

Honestly, the only items i feel were great to get and were available for crafting at cromwell were crom feyr, and the short bow of gesen. 

 

I agree with you on your first points. They can just stick to their current crafting system as far as i care, i just think a deeper system would add more to the game. Nothing more.

You are also right that you don´t need to use it, as i didn´t most of the game, so..it is kinda pointless in the sense that you don´t really gain anything from it. (where you did get better weapons in BG2 as an example)

 

I do have to disagree with the BG2 craft items though, most of them were very useful the dragon armors were great, Gesens bow was awesome, Crom Faeyr was your weapon against Golems and Trolls, Silver swords was almost instant death against low lvl enemies, the Wave was one of the most powerfull weapons in the game. That is hardly useless, however you could do easily without them. Thats the whole point. You got reward for doing it, but you could go without it, that was very well handled i think.

 

And yes Caspenar made them even better and had new ones, which however were rather easily obtained in ToB, but the mainfocus of ToB was combat, so that came naturally. (you still could miss a lot of stuff though)

 

Anyway i´m not against PoE crafting system, i just wish it would have more depth and there would be some iconic items in the game. Thats all :)

 

 

I suppose the dragon armors were nice, i've never had much use for them though since i never take a lot of characters in my party that wear such heavy armor, and since my main PC for most of my playthroughs is some form cleric, i prefer getting the Armor of faith +3, which is much easier to get early on in the game, has the same defense as the shadow scale armor, and i find the +1 saving throws is more useful then the 50% fire/acid resistance.

I don't think i've ever used the wave except for on one playthrough where i threw it on minsc, same thing for the silver sword.

 

That said, in pillars i have used the crafting system on almost all the armor/weapons my party is equipped with, even the items you can find buy that have good enchantments on them already can usually be improved with elemental lash for more damage, an added stat bonus, or proofed for extra DR against a single damage type.

 

 

I used a lot of the items that were crafted on harder playthroughs. Anyway :D I don´t disagree with you, again i did use PoE system to upgade mine a few times, i just wish it would have been a deeper system. Also i don´t think there is some problem to add something iconic into the game.

 

"Iconic" weapons or armor stick with your game experience. Armor of faith +3 was a fantastic cleric armor, just as baldurans was for my paladin, not to mention Carsomyr on a paladin, this are things you just don´t forget if you are invested in a game.

 

I can´t think of one weapon or item in PoE that i can even remember. Sadly.


"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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