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Ouroboros226

Something I think needs to be addressed regarding the Stronghold aquisition

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When you get your stronghold its pretty much a cursed ruin and the only other person in the keep is a soul inside a statue. The statue has no real mobility or ability to move or communicate to the outside world.

Yet when you get your keep, suddenly *someone* is collecting taxes? Ehr... who is this exactly? 
Who exactly sends for construction workers?
Who are you collecting taxes from?

What we need is:

1) A quest to hire a steward. This way we have a logical explanation to who hires the construction workers and does the day to day work on the keep.
2) A quest which gathers the nearby villagers and farmers, you should officially talk to representatives from the population. They pay you taxes for what? You have to have them acknowledge you as the new ruler of the keep and promise to protect them in return. 

 

Currently the stronghold acquisition is extremely immersion breaking when it comes to logic. 

Construction workers are magically summoned out of thin air.
Noone is at the keep to oversee daily upkeep and administration.
The populace around your lands just magically recognize you as a ruler and gladly pays you taxes.

 

Any devs that can comment on this?
Thoughts from other players?

Maybe it's nitpick but I find this silly and non-sensical. Which is a shame because it is easily fixed.
 

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I agree, I love the game but the stronghold is letting it down.  It needs to be built more into the world and story instead of seeming to be some pocket world that it currently is (though a pocket plane stronghold would have been cool too).  First off, I think you should be made a Thayn or something and granted the land from some Erl or other high lord in order to explain how you can just claim the place and start collecting taxes.  I think you should have some scripted events and quests to get the villages onside and accepting of your rule, with supplicants coming to complain about local issues like Bob has been stealing Bill's sheep and how you will punish them etc with the choices made affecting recruitment and other stats.  You should have a number of troops that you can increase through recruitment and allocate to patrolling certain areas or going after certain issues like in Neverwinter Nights 2 stronghold, a captain of the guard to talk to, able to allocate idle companions to assisting in certain roles etc.  That kinda thing.

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There's something that bothers me more.

 

I am a lord. I own a stronghold. Right ? So why do I have to run around doing errands ? Run a long, long way to the warden. Run to the Brighthollow. Run to the Great Hall. It feels like I'm a servant, not a lord.

 

Well, I can see your point to a degree.  I'm not sure why the lord of the hold should have to run to see the warden.  He may have his own home outside the walls, but shouldn't he come to you (let's say) if you tell the Steward (throne) that you'd like to speak to him?  And I suppose that the same argument could be made for the other merchants.  If you want to speak to them, the Steward chair has only to summon them to the great hall.

 

As for going to Brighthollow, well, no lord (to my knowledge) has ever told his steward or chamberlain or whomever that he wants to go to bed and has his bed brought to him.  You have a home and a bedroom.  You need to go to it.  It doesn't come to you.  That said, I wish it wasn't a 2 story building that required 2 load screens for you to finally GET to that bed.  One more, if you want to count loading the main stronghold map, before heading over to Brighthollow.

 

The entire Stronghold seems designed (not necessarily intentionally) in such a way that it's generally a pain in the butt to use, due to all the walking across the SH map to get from one location to the next, and all the additional map loading.  The one feature in the Stronghold that actually IS convenient, relates to the dungeon which I'd rather not elaborate on, since it's a bit of a spoiler. 

 

(This thread really seems like it should be in the "Stories" subforum, since it can be difficult to properly discuss the matter without hitting on some spoiler-y details.)

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I agree, I love the game but the stronghold is letting it down.  It needs to be built more into the world and story instead of seeming to be some pocket world that it currently is (though a pocket plane stronghold would have been cool too).  First off, I think you should be made a Thayn or something and granted the land from some Erl or other high lord in order to explain how you can just claim the place and start collecting taxes.  I think you should have some scripted events and quests to get the villages onside and accepting of your rule, with supplicants coming to complain about local issues like Bob has been stealing Bill's sheep and how you will punish them etc with the choices made affecting recruitment and other stats.  You should have a number of troops that you can increase through recruitment and allocate to patrolling certain areas or going after certain issues like in Neverwinter Nights 2 stronghold, a captain of the guard to talk to, able to allocate idle companions to assisting in certain roles etc.  That kinda thing.

 

Honestly, I'd rather that the stronghold went in the other direction.  Rather than become a lord (or whatever title) of a large tract of land in the Dyrwood, I wish that the PC's "stronghold" was really just a house in a small town (Dyrwood Village or whatever its name is, i.e. to the east of Defiance Bay) or a townhouse in Defiance Bay itself (though that could present some issues for a short period of time during the main story line).

 

My view of a stronghold would be that it's really little more than a place to hang out and get a free night's rest.  No merchants.  No dungeon under the house.  No steward.  Just a place to get a free night's rest with no stat bonuses.  That said, I suppose that with a nice townhouse, you could have some upgrades that could grant stat bonuses to your rest.  Add a small library (or buy books to restock an empty library), get a bonus to INT and/or Lore.  Upgrade the kitchen or hire a housekeeper who cooks better meals for you, get a bonus to CON (?).

 

Another possible way that SH's could have been simple would have been for each of the three factions to give you a room of your own in their HQ after joining the faction.  And the room might have had a resting bonus that was apropos to the specific faction. The Knights' bonus could be related to, say, Resolve, Lore, and Athletics.  The crime lords' might have been related to Mechanics, Stealth, and Perception.  And the Dozens' bonus might have been related to Con, Survival, and Athletics (?).  (Making them up on the fly.  Don't get too picky.)  Basically, minor bonuses related to the nature of the faction.

 

Anyways, just so thoughts...

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The statue has a marble cell phone she uses to hire workers and call them over to handle all possible tasks.

 

 

/thread

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"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

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There's something that bothers me more.

 

I am a lord. I own a stronghold. Right ? So why do I have to run around doing errands ? Run a long, long way to the warden. Run to the Brighthollow. Run to the Great Hall. It feels like I'm a servant, not a lord.

 

I don't know, though, I mean.. the thing with the taxes is actually strange as hell. How are you a Lord? Who named you Lord? I don't remember anything like that. Yeah, you have a Keep, a Stronghold, fair enough, but at the end of the day, I don't think *anyone* has formally recognized you in any way.

 

It's odd as hell, really.

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I don't know, though, I mean.. the thing with the taxes is actually strange as hell. How are you a Lord? Who named you Lord? I don't remember anything like that. Yeah, you have a Keep, a Stronghold, fair enough, but at the end of the day, I don't think *anyone* has formally recognized you in any way.

 

It's odd as hell, really.

 

 

It coudl be that you just waded in and through sheer force of will/personality/arms carved out your own personal realm.

This doesn't help one bit explaining why the heck no other noble tries to kick you in the guts for this foolishness and it would also be odd to assume that the surrounding villages just allowed you to assume control over them. So it could be a great quest chain overall.

 

On the other hand this part of the Dyrwood might be considered "wild", "untamed" or "contested" with no noble really capable of establishing his superiority over the region. That is until CHARNAME came along and restored Caed Nua, especially if he contained the stuff spilling out of the endless paths into the surrounding countryside. This would certainly help establish him as a local ruler worth following.

 

Another way to look at is, is simply to look at Lord Raedric who should or probably would normally in charge of that region but who sunk a LOT of his gold into hiring mercenaries and animancers with the intent to contain and cure the Legacy. This alone would have weakened him and there are indeed hints alluding to his weakened situation. Couple that with his hard attitude towards his subjects and he might very well have lost control over those regions.

 

If you support him and take Caed Nua he would either try playing nice out of necessity to his weakened military and economic status or try to regain control by force if he felt that necessary. And if you supported Kolsc... well, he is inexperienced as a ruler and has a LOT of other things to take care of. The fact that you helped him achieve power in the first place would also not lost upon him. Add to that, that you already dislodged one member of his famliy from his seat of power and could do so again and he has a very strong incentive to play nice. If he doesn't want to he would need to assemble allies that would need to move against you. He could probably find some in Defiance Bay.

 

I hope they expand on the stronghold and put in such explanations or reasons why you are left in ownership of the castle.

After all, there is a expansion coming. :biggrin:

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I don't know, though, I mean.. the thing with the taxes is actually strange as hell. How are you a Lord? Who named you Lord? I don't remember anything like that. Yeah, you have a Keep, a Stronghold, fair enough, but at the end of the day, I don't think *anyone* has formally recognized you in any way.

 

It's odd as hell, really.

 

It coudl be that you just waded in and through sheer force of will/personality/arms carved out your own personal realm.

 

[...]

 

I'd be fine with that. If you actually did that. :lol:

 

I'm not saying that it couldn't play out the way you describe, it's just that.. it doesn't. And that makes me sad. :(


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I agree, I love the game but the stronghold is letting it down.  It needs to be built more into the world and story instead of seeming to be some pocket world that it currently is (though a pocket plane stronghold would have been cool too).  First off, I think you should be made a Thayn or something and granted the land from some Erl or other high lord in order to explain how you can just claim the place and start collecting taxes.  I think you should have some scripted events and quests to get the villages onside and accepting of your rule, with supplicants coming to complain about local issues like Bob has been stealing Bill's sheep and how you will punish them etc with the choices made affecting recruitment and other stats.  You should have a number of troops that you can increase through recruitment and allocate to patrolling certain areas or going after certain issues like in Neverwinter Nights 2 stronghold, a captain of the guard to talk to, able to allocate idle companions to assisting in certain roles etc.  That kinda thing.

It is worse than that. Only person that can give you the title is the Duc. And he ignores you the whole game until the ridiculous happenings at end of act 2. The whole Act2 is completely pointless storywise because of this. I don't have a clue what Obsidian was thinking with this feature. Edited by archangel979
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Pfft, all major nobility allowed 4-6 novice adventurers to carve out independent realms from their land. Haven't you read your history?

 

As for not being part of the story - perhaps it's wise for the PC not to discuss what they did openly....

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Pfft, all major nobility allowed 4-6 novice adventurers to carve out independent realms from their land. Haven't you read your history?

 

As for not being part of the story - perhaps it's wise for the PC not to discuss what they did openly....

 

There are reasons to believe nobility can be bought in Dyrwood.

 

In one of the quests you can pay a top prostitute 4000, and she buys a house in the richest district of Defiance Bay.

 

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Pfft, all major nobility allowed 4-6 novice adventurers to carve out independent realms from their land. Haven't you read your history?

 

As for not being part of the story - perhaps it's wise for the PC not to discuss what they did openly....

considering they put the keep on only route to enter defience bay (other bridge is broken) it is not possible that everyone does not know about new master of the keep within one week. Edited by archangel979

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Yeah, the Stronghold makes little to no sense from a story perspective. Literally add two three-line generic NPCs as a taxman (explaining you're getting taxes from the merchants) and a head of the guard, a couple of small conversations in Defiance Bay and it'll make sense.

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I absolutely agree with everything in this thread. One shouldn`t be forced to get the freaking stronghold in the first place(just climb over the goddamn barbican if its so broken), but if you choose to keep it, you should expect to do at least a few quests before having your authority recognized.

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I'm assuming the taxes are from use of the bridge/road. Private toll roads and bridges were fairly common in the era this stuff is based on.


"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

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Yea I whish we could interrect with the townsfolk... which in our realm or domain I guess... or It could just send out the watchers and sort the watcher related problems like witcher thing...maybe there could...

Oh dont get me started on the wasted potential again :mellow:

better luck on expantion


Kana - "Sorry. It seems I'm not very good at raising spirits." Kana winces. "That was unintentional."

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There's something that bothers me more.

 

I am a lord. I own a stronghold. Right ? So why do I have to run around doing errands ? Run a long, long way to the warden. Run to the Brighthollow. Run to the Great Hall. It feels like I'm a servant, not a lord.

 

I don't know, though, I mean.. the thing with the taxes is actually strange as hell. How are you a Lord? Who named you Lord? I don't remember anything like that. Yeah, you have a Keep, a Stronghold, fair enough, but at the end of the day, I don't think *anyone* has formally recognized you in any way.

 

It's odd as hell, really.

 

I was fully expecting to have a quest where I had to deal with the whole problem of titles and land deeds, establishing and legitimizing my claim to Cad Nua in some way. That didn't happen.

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Technically, you'd be taking over "That Dude Who You Get The Stronghold From"'s already existing independent realm, wouldn't you?

 

Edit: Probably some ancient treaty "...And verily whosoever stabulates the current lord of Caed Nua shall be named the new lord of Caed Nua until such time that random adventures come and stabulate you"

 

DOUBLE EDIT BONUS: Technically, the spirit in the throne could vouch for your lordship; it offers the lordship to you after all. Given the setting, surely there would be a legal precedence for establishing right of ownership through governing spirits trapped in object

 

TRIPLE HUMBLE EDIT OF DOOM: Forgot what forum I was in, apologies.

Edited by Amentep

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Pfft, all major nobility allowed 4-6 novice adventurers to carve out independent realms from their land. Haven't you read your history?

 

As for not being part of the story - perhaps it's wise for the PC not to discuss what they did openly....

 

There are reasons to believe nobility can be bought in Dyrwood.

 

In one of the quests you can pay a top prostitute 4000, and she buys a house in the richest district of Defiance Bay.

 

That's not buying nobility, that's just getting rich. Nobility is more than having money and living in the right part of town.

 

Also @Amentep: Could you, please, put spoilers around the guy's name?

Edited by Varana

Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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Technically, you'd be taking over certain person's already existing independent realm, wouldn't you?

 

Edit: Probably some ancient treaty "...And verily whosoever stabulates the current lord of Caed Nua shall be named the new lord of Caed Nua until such time that random adventures come and stabulate you"

And the game should say these things. Once you tax people passing through it, you are either recognized by the powers in the area or you are a bridge/road bandit taking money from travelers without a right to do so. Edited by archangel979

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Honestly, I've not had much trouble handwaving the idea that either

1) The Magic Soulbound Statue takes care of it all because Magic. After all, she can lock/unlock doors and seems to have some limited mystical/telekinetic control of the area (she blocks doorways, etc.), she can also communicate to other people and allow access to stores for payment, etc.

and/or

2) The Watcher just sends out a notice to NPCs to do construction and has some unseen administrative staff to help handle things. Yes, it would be nice to see these people, but since they have little to no bearing on the story, I don't care that my game isn't wasting resources to generate their sprites either.

 

As for why you have the rights to the land: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the person you seek out at Caed Nua had the "deed" to the land as it were, and you inherited it on his death with the Statue Steward as the witness to the transaction (i.e., the statue wanted you to have the land so orchestrated your inheritance). He was nuts, but he did own the place. Large estates like that usually include copious acreage of farmland, etc. upon which were probably either said dude's actual tenants (who weren't getting much out of him) or squatters who couldn't afford Defiance Bay, were afraid of the Glanfathans, and didn't want to live under Raedric's tyranny up north. You and or the steward via magic statue magic communicated to the tenants/squatters that you now had control of the keep and if they paid you a reasonable sum, it would help you be able to fix the keep and hire guards, etc. etc. And again, the collection is handled by Unseen Tax Collector #3.

 

If this were a dedicated stronghold building game, I'd be annoyed these factors weren't handled well, but it's not, so I'm not going to waste much energy being concerned about it.

 

Do I wish the stronghold were more complex and more of the nitty gritty apparent? Sure. I'm an old-time Suikoden fan and love me some stronghold improving and recruiting and all the niggly details within.

 

At the same time, I accept this game is not part of the Suikoden series and that I should not set my expectations at the same level for a game like that. (I'm also glad I don't have to recruit 108 allies or fight army battles in between my party adventures.)

 

IIRC, the addition of the stronghold was a late backer-boosted add-on---incorporated after design of the game was already under way. So it also feels a bit separate because they had to design the core of the game without the presumption of a stronghold being there. They had to make it indeed as something that they could insert in, whole cloth, later. So it feels like it is, indeed, an extra object inserted into the game last minute. It's perhaps a downside of Kickstarter based style game design planning.

 

I also get the sense that they really wanted to do more with the stronghold and just ran out of time/it wasn't high enough on the priority list.

 

I do hope in an expansion they might be able to add to the stronghold. If I could have just one thing, I'd want a menagerie I can put all my spare pets. As much as I love weighing down Eder with a backpack full of puppies, kittens, and pigs (and I know he loves it too), it would be cool to put the pets you're not using somewhere and seeing them run around Caed Nua. But yes, some more people, and making it look busy and thriving and actually look like a living estate... that would be nice too.

 

But while I'd love for it to be more, it doesn't bug me it is the way it is now.

 

TL;DR A wizard animancer did it. NBD.

Edited by DeathQuaker
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Technically, you'd be taking over [redacted]'s already existing independent realm, wouldn't you?

 

Edit: Probably some ancient treaty "...And verily whosoever stabulates the current lord of Caed Nua shall be named the new lord of Caed Nua until such time that random adventures come and stabulate you"

And the game should say these things. Once you tax people passing through it, you are either recognized by the powers in the area or you are a bridge/road bandit taking money from travelers without a right to do so.

 

not disputing that it should recognize it, just thinking it through...

 

Also I goobered and put the name in when it could be considered a spoiler, would appreciate if you fix my error in your quote. Thanks!

Edited by Amentep

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I kind of don't like how the Stronghold never really feels like it's mine. Everything is already there, I just pay money to fix it up. I don't have the ability to design the courtyard. Even if you hired the shop keepers directly and just fixed up the buildings that would be better.

 

And also, regarding brighthollow (and a bit of a nitpick), I understand they want the beds opened first but couldn't they atleast remove the fallen columns and tidy up the rubble? That sounds like something I can do with a party of six and a few hours of spare time. I mean just because something is no longer functional, doesn't mean it needs to be dirty as hell.

 

But regardless, I do like the stronghold.


It's good to criticize things you love.

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I agree, I love the game but the stronghold is letting it down.  It needs to be built more into the world and story instead of seeming to be some pocket world that it currently is (though a pocket plane stronghold would have been cool too).  First off, I think you should be made a Thayn or something and granted the land from some Erl or other high lord in order to explain how you can just claim the place and start collecting taxes.  I think you should have some scripted events and quests to get the villages onside and accepting of your rule, with supplicants coming to complain about local issues like Bob has been stealing Bill's sheep and how you will punish them etc with the choices made affecting recruitment and other stats.  You should have a number of troops that you can increase through recruitment and allocate to patrolling certain areas or going after certain issues like in Neverwinter Nights 2 stronghold, a captain of the guard to talk to, able to allocate idle companions to assisting in certain roles etc.  That kinda thing.

 

When I played Act 1 I thought that Raedric's Hold was going to be our stronghold. I had grown attached to Gilded Vale and it had residents we knew It was a bit of a disappointment when we were given Caed Nua which was just a bit of a random ruin we find and immediately leave.

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