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Harder than a Pillar: A Fighter's Handbook

Fighter Optimization Tank

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74 replies to this topic

#61
gkathellar

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A pure tank fighter is a wannabe paladin.

Indulge me. I found fighters superior but that was before I knew that FaC only works for the Watcher. Why are paladins better?

 

Side note: My previous post is a bit from the perspective of "IF YOU USE MY PLAYSTYLE THEN ETC ETC" but I don't think endgame fighter tanks are going to do significant amounts of damage outside contrived situations.

 

 

Higher all-around defenses, mainly. Supportive things to do while tanking, to a lesser extent.

 

It's by a small margin, but I do think that as a pure 100% tank, paladin pulls ahead and stays ahead.

 

A lot of what fighters use to tank is based on taking hits and then recovering from them. That's great if you're expecting to take hits, but in PoE, a pure tank looks to avoid them outright.


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#62
Kolbot

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one point for fighter tank is the abitity to aggro with Defender and Hold the Line

 

Humain Soldier, 2hand burster, something like 19/7/8/18/6/20, will do the job



#63
Crucis

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Well there seems to be a heated debate about how a tank should be, instead of addressing the posts one by one I'll just state some things.

First and foremost this is not an RP guide, so arguments like "tanking this way is not realist" or "This is a cheesy build" are not valid.

Many here believe that a tank should be able to do more than just tanking, i don't since this is all about the dedicated tank. And while It is possible that hybrid is more effective than a dedicated tank, it requires more micromanaging to work. Still, i appreciate the feedback and I'll use the advice while writing the hybrid guide.

 

I have updated the main post, thanks to everyone who participated in the thread. I'll add KDubya build once i get to write about the hybrid fighter.

 

My disagreement is more fundamental than this.  I don't accept the definition of a "tank" or "tanking" as one which is solely about being impossible to hit merely to suck in enemies to attack you for no better reason than you're abusing the game's AI.  My definition of a "tank" is one where the character tries to be difficult to hit or, at least, damage while at the same time being a respectable offensive force as well.  To me, there's nothing whatsoever "hybrid" about a fighter that is capable of dealing a respectable amount of damage while being able to defend himself.  To me, that's what they're supposed to do in the first place.

 

EDIT: Regarding whether a so-called hybrid requires more micro-managing, not necessarily.  I played Eder in the style I've been discussing here and he lead my first party in damage on my first run, though not by a huge amount.  That said, I will concede that if he was more closely managed he might have done more damage.  But honestly, I wasn't all that concerned with him doing amazing levels of damage.  I was happy with what I was getting out of him.  And saved my micromanaging for the spellcasters.


Edited by Crucis, 18 April 2015 - 07:07 AM.


#64
Crucis

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This will never end I guess .. so building tank in way that s/he is hard to hit or almost impossible to hit is cheese? Maybe Lionel Messi with his untouchable dribbling is cheese.

 

If said character is so incompetent that it can't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside, you betcha it's cheese.



#65
Crucis

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Well, the first order of business is deciding if it is cheese.

So you pump your deflection so high the AI cannot hit you, but still continues to try...
Is that equivalent to attacking an enemy who is just standing there bugged and not attacking you back?
Is the result any different?

I have some sympathy for the minmax distaste, but not for this. Are you saying the enemy is supposed to know he can't hit you? Are the mobs reading the accuracy rolls?

 

I mean you could also argue your rogue shouldn't get too much offensive power. Not talking "at the expense of defense" even, just too much per se. Because then they could oneshot vulnerable enemies like wizards. And they would be stupid to engage you because they will lose off that instakill. This is a thread about optimization and I think three times now it's been posted that you shouldn't get so much deflection that you're unhittable because that's not fair to the AI.

 

 

Without carefully rereading, I'm gonna take the risk and say that you're stretching the facts out of all proportion here.  I don't think that anyone has said what you claim.  It's got nothing to do with "being fair" to the AI.  It's all about being nothing but a cheesy rules lawyer by creating an all-defense, no-offense character that abuses the "rules" of the game (as built into the AI), because you know those "rules" and the AI can only obey them.  In any pencil and paper RPG, the GM would teach you the error of your ways in a heart beat in any number of painful ways.  But in a cRPG, the GM (i.e. the game itself) can only do what it's programed to do.  And is often (usually?) incapable of coming up with counters to rule-abusing, rule-lawyering players.



#66
MadDemiurg

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I don't think an offensive fighter would pose any significant threat so that sentient enemies would fear running by him anyway. If AI was acting tactically tanking would be useless in this game except for blocking doorways.


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#67
Vadász

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If the idea of building a deflection tank was not in the minds of the developers, why would they make it so easy to reach invulnerability in the default difficulty level?

 

Even without min maxing, a fighter who just picks picks some no brainer talents (Defender, wary defender and weapon and shield) and following the game advice to pump resolve, will still be able to get mostly grazes and no crits in normal/hard. The problem is that to maintain that playstyle in PoTD you are required to make some sacrifices, there's not other way around it.

 

You may think that PotD is meant to be played with sub optimal builds and by not abusing the AI, but most players don't care if something is cheesy, they just want an effective character to help them get their achievements, this guide helps them do that imo.

 

You should write a RP/Play Fair guide and put your builds in there, i'll even be glad to offer my advice on that since i know a thing or two about RPing too, but talking about this in this thread is moot.


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#68
MadDemiurg

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I think dominance of the deflection attacking enemies is a part of the problem. More offensive spellcasters in the game would make deflection less valuable and constitution more valuable. Still when your fighter gets petrified you kinda wish that you've taken that bull's fortitude (not that it would help much against POTD accuracy though)


Edited by MadDemiurg, 18 April 2015 - 08:56 AM.


#69
omgFIREBALLS

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Without carefully rereading, I'm gonna take the risk and say that you're stretching the facts out of all proportion here.  I don't think that anyone has said what you claim.

Post #25, then #28 where you agree with an "Exactly", then #48.

 

Higher all-around defenses, mainly.

148/95/115/113 selfbuffed on my fighter who probably isn't getting better. Plus, given the brief duration of most fights, I could pretty much slap another 20 on everything. How high does a paladin get?


Edited by omgFIREBALLS, 18 April 2015 - 09:30 AM.


#70
Ceranai

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If the idea of building a deflection tank was not in the minds of the developers, why would they make it so easy to reach invulnerability in the default difficulty level?

 

Even without min maxing, a fighter who just picks picks some no brainer talents (Defender, wary defender and weapon and shield) and following the game advice to pump resolve, will still be able to get mostly grazes and no crits in normal/hard. The problem is that to maintain that playstyle in PoTD you are required to make some sacrifices, there's not other way around it.

 

You may think that PotD is meant to be played with sub optimal builds and by not abusing the AI, but most players don't care if something is cheesy, they just want an effective character to help them get their achievements, this guide helps them do that imo.

 

You should write a RP/Play Fair guide and put your builds in there, i'll even be glad to offer my advice on that since i know a thing or two about RPing too, but talking about this in this thread is moot.

Again its not the cheese that i disagree with, its that you dont have to mix max to get a high enough deflection to deflect everything, and your dismissal of other skills as useless means you wont be getting the most out of your tank.

 

EG knockdowns are important and fighters get access to two good ones, you dont see the point in reflexes and you value int over dex, one of which makes a couple of abilities longer and the other gives you faster abilities and an attack speed that isnt laughable



#71
omgFIREBALLS

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EG knockdowns are important and fighters get access to two good ones, you dont see the point in reflexes and you value int over dex, one of which makes a couple of abilities longer and the other gives you faster abilities and an attack speed that isnt laughable

If by reflexes you mean the reflex save I gotta mention that that is my fighter's highest save (115 reflex 113 will), with rock bottom dexterity, with 15 or so int and the +10 will talent on top of that. The Weapon and Shield talent just does so much.

 

I think the will save is the most important though as it can be so devastating to have your tank get confused/charmed/dominated.

 

Obviously I'm still very uncaring for attack speed but just the thought of chaining abilities/items faster is a good point for minding your dexterity.



#72
Psychevore

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This is my fighter's build. It only has one job: be a fortress.

Moon Godlike Fire Godlike

Might: 14
Con: 11
Dex: 10
Per: 18
Int: 6
Res: 19 (Aedyr background)

M+C for combined fortitude save of +10
I+R for combined will save of +10
P+R for combined deflection of +17
D+P for combined reflex save of +16

And of course, Moon Godlike Fire Godlike for being.. godlike. (Aumaua body type)

Think I'm going to go for an all Godlike custom party. Main character (Cipher) is Death Godlike.

EDIT: decided for Fire Godlike instead. Moon Godlike will go to the still to build Paladin, synergizes better in my opinion.

Edited by Psychevore, 19 April 2015 - 02:23 AM.


#73
zeppos

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This may (or may not) be the best fighter build guide around, but it's clearly one of the most comprehensive ones I found on the Internet. Good job!



#74
Ransurian

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I'm probably resurrecting an old thread here, but it's the first -- and most helpful, prior to 2.0 -- post on Fighter tanks I managed to stumble across. As of 2.0, this guide is now outdated.


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#75
Killyox

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/cry

 

necro :(


Edited by Killyox, 26 August 2015 - 05:35 AM.






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