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Harder than a Pillar: A Fighter's Handbook

Fighter Optimization Tank

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#21
Crucis

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And I disagree with you completely.  Creating a tank whose only purpose is to suck the enemy into attacking him uselessly to "protect" the glass cannons behind him is total cheese in my book.  All you're doing is turning the AI against itself.  Any "realistic" enemies would quickly realize that trying to attack the unhittable tank was pointless and just turn to go after the other party members.

I can't tell you how to enjoy the game :) I'm just saying it pays off. I would like it if there were some threat system so that tank damage wasn't almost irrelevant, and so that the tank could keep melee safe too.

 

 

Fine.  Enjoy your cheese, cuz that's all it is.



#22
Glasny

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This build sacrifices too much. You're over-tanking. Having a meat-sack who can't do anything other than get hit isn't really helpful.

I disagree with all my heart. One of those in front and five glass cannons in the back. I "sacrifice" even more on my fighters.

 

 

And I disagree with you completely.  Creating a tank whose only purpose is to suck the enemy into attacking him uselessly to "protect" the glass cannons behind him is total cheese in my book.  All you're doing is turning the AI against itself.  Any "realistic" enemies would quickly realize that trying to attack the unhittable tank was pointless and just turn to go after the other party members.

 

Frankly, it's not that hard to create a tough to hit tank who can also deal respectable damage as well. For crying out loud, Eder fully armored up with a 1H weapon and a shield and various other buffing items can be a very difficult to hit tank while still making most enemies who dare to engage him pay for doing so.  And he's a lot more "realistic" in my book than some excessively min-maxed, next to no offense, aggro magnet tank whose only purpose is to abuse the AI.

 

 

What you are saying makes no sense...
In EVERY IE game, the tank is the damage soaker. How is that cheesing?



#23
omgFIREBALLS

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Fine.  Enjoy your cheese, cuz that's all it is.

And is your Edér such a painbringer that it still wouldn't be sensible for me to ignore him and go for your backline if we fought? My druid's doing ten times my tank's damage and is twenty times squishier. Weapon Focus and a few points in might/dex isn't going to make any player think "Oh jeez, I have to eat a disengagement attack to get to the druid? NO WAY, staying here."



#24
Doug

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Since your example tank is virtually identical to mine I fully endorse this guide and commend it to the house!

 

Good Job!


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#25
Seramus

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What you are saying makes no sense...

In EVERY IE game, the tank is the damage soaker. How is that cheesing?

He's suggesting that it is completely unreasonable for a sentient creature to mindlessly attack a target it cannot possibly hit.
Basically the definition of insanity.
Similar to how you can run back and forth from enemies, until only one or two of them engage you.


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#26
Crucis

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Fine.  Enjoy your cheese, cuz that's all it is.

And is your Edér such a painbringer that it still wouldn't be sensible for me to ignore him and go for your backline if we fought? My druid's doing ten times my tank's damage and is twenty times squishier. Weapon Focus and a few points in might/dex isn't going to make any player think "Oh jeez, I have to eat a disengagement attack to get to the druid? NO WAY, staying here."

 

 

I didn't say that he was an offensive monster.  Only that he held his own and was a contributor to the team's overall offense, not a friggin' cheesey aggro magnet. 

 

Also note, if the enemies want to try to get around him, they're more than welcome to try.  The fact is that I don't usually play in such a way that there's a single tank in front of 5 ranged combatants (whether physical or magical).  I usually have 2 tanks up front, and will use a third (or even a fourth) to create a wall to block the enemy from getting into my party's rear and attack my most valuable and squishiest spell casters.  I will not only put those additional characters in the wall, but I'll micromanage them to intercept and block enemies from trying to go around them.  "You shall not pass!"  I don't trust in aggro magnet cheese.  I do what a real warrior would do .... get my characters physically between the enemy and those I'm trying to protect.


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#27
Kolbot

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Dwarf (Both): One of the worst races for this build, kinda strange since the dwarf is usually the quintessential fantasy tank.

 

 

Dwarf ain't that bad

 

 

Here's an example

 

 

PotD Dwarf Defender :

 

 

Mountain Dwarf        Mig  5                1-Knock-down                                                                    7-Unbending

                                 Con 19              2-Weapon and Shield Style (Hatchet/Large shield )          8-Unstoppable
                                 Dex  3                3-Defender                                                                        9-Critical Defense

                                 Per  18               4-Wary Defender                                                              10-Mental Fortress

                                 Int    14               5-Vigorus Defense                                                           11-Unbroken

                                 Res  19               6-Body Control                                                                12-Hold the Line or Bear's Fortitude 

                                   



#28
Crucis

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What you are saying makes no sense...

In EVERY IE game, the tank is the damage soaker. How is that cheesing?

He's suggesting that it is completely unreasonable for a sentient creature to mindlessly attack a target it cannot possibly hit.
Basically the definition of insanity.
Similar to how you can run back and forth from enemies, until only one or two of them engage you.

 

 

Exactly.  My Eder was very hard to hit, though not entirely impossible, with his DEFL at slightly over 120 near the end of the game with a good set of armor, shield, and other defense-enhancing items, but not counting any temporary spell or ability buffs.

 

Also my point was that one can make a very difficult to hit tank without completely sacrificing a respectable level of offense.  Of course, given the level of hyperbole here on this board, some peoples' definition of "respectable" may require one to generate near godly amounts of damage.  Mine does not.


Edited by Crucis, 17 April 2015 - 04:27 AM.


#29
Crucis

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This build sacrifices too much. You're over-tanking. Having a meat-sack who can't do anything other than get hit isn't really helpful.

I disagree with all my heart. One of those in front and five glass cannons in the back. I "sacrifice" even more on my fighters.

 

 

And I disagree with you completely.  Creating a tank whose only purpose is to suck the enemy into attacking him uselessly to "protect" the glass cannons behind him is total cheese in my book.  All you're doing is turning the AI against itself.  Any "realistic" enemies would quickly realize that trying to attack the unhittable tank was pointless and just turn to go after the other party members.

 

Frankly, it's not that hard to create a tough to hit tank who can also deal respectable damage as well. For crying out loud, Eder fully armored up with a 1H weapon and a shield and various other buffing items can be a very difficult to hit tank while still making most enemies who dare to engage him pay for doing so.  And he's a lot more "realistic" in my book than some excessively min-maxed, next to no offense, aggro magnet tank whose only purpose is to abuse the AI.

 

 

What you are saying makes no sense...
In EVERY IE game, the tank is the damage soaker. How is that cheesing?

 

 

No, that's not the job of a true tank.  A true tank is not a character that's nothing but a damage sponge.  A true tank goes to front line, tries to be as tough to hit as possible while at the same time dealing a respectable level of damage to those attacking him.    Characters who are nothing but damage sponges are just cheese-tanks.
 



#30
Glasny

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This build sacrifices too much. You're over-tanking. Having a meat-sack who can't do anything other than get hit isn't really helpful.

I disagree with all my heart. One of those in front and five glass cannons in the back. I "sacrifice" even more on my fighters.

 

 

And I disagree with you completely.  Creating a tank whose only purpose is to suck the enemy into attacking him uselessly to "protect" the glass cannons behind him is total cheese in my book.  All you're doing is turning the AI against itself.  Any "realistic" enemies would quickly realize that trying to attack the unhittable tank was pointless and just turn to go after the other party members.

 

Frankly, it's not that hard to create a tough to hit tank who can also deal respectable damage as well. For crying out loud, Eder fully armored up with a 1H weapon and a shield and various other buffing items can be a very difficult to hit tank while still making most enemies who dare to engage him pay for doing so.  And he's a lot more "realistic" in my book than some excessively min-maxed, next to no offense, aggro magnet tank whose only purpose is to abuse the AI.

 

 

What you are saying makes no sense...
In EVERY IE game, the tank is the damage soaker. How is that cheesing?

 

 

No, that's not the job of a true tank.  A true tank is not a character that's nothing but a damage sponge.  A true tank goes to front line, tries to be as tough to hit as possible while at the same time dealing a respectable level of damage to those attacking him.    Characters who are nothing but damage sponges are just cheese-tanks.
 

 

 

Well, that's a point of view.

In my book, a tank is primarily a "damage sponge" and utility character.

If you want to build yours with more DPS, that's fine, but don't try to turn your opinion into more than it is.


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#31
dukefx

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If you are so concerned about PotD then why didn't reply to the idea of 1 tank and 5 glass cannons instead. 1 tank can't keep them save 99% of the time. That 1% being some kind of bottleneck with no teleporting shades or confusion spamming casters around.

It's not failsafe but 99%, lol. It's not anywhere near anywhere near anywhere near anywhere near being that problematic. Am I clear enough?

 

I send my tank in alone while I buff up, cast Returning Storm, etc. I also summon stuff - summons alone do enough of a job with the offtanking. Any monster who decides to run past my tank to my backline will be happy to stop if engaged by a summon. Too, I use my cipher to paralyze these brave souls. Then my druid and wizard just unload on the crowd swinging futilely at my tank. Sometimes even hitting him if need be.

 

As for teleporting shades. You can outrange it. Lategame shades obviously aren't a problem but early on I just back the cannons off when I see the purple icon over the shades. Hell, they can even get bored of chasing.

 

These are the damage stats of a PotD party that just reached level 12.

Fighter, dedicated tank hatchet4lyfe: 6k

Rogue: 40k

Priest, mostly buffing: 3k

Cipher, CC/utility in hard fights, Mind Blades in easy ones: 30k

Druid: 70k

Wizard: 34k

 

Like those 6k would become something meaningful on a tincan using sword and board and not sporting any damaging abilities. What's more, like they would be worth the tradeoff when his job is to just soak hits while the cannons unload.

 

Just checked my party record. Edér did 37372.6 damage. You are obviously doing something wrong.



#32
omgFIREBALLS

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And how much did the others do? Have they all been in the party for as long? How far progressed is the save? What difficulty?



#33
KDubya

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Here is my fighter spec'd for damage. This was on hard, level 12 now, not finished yet with game. This is my first playthrough.

 

 

 

Damage Spec'd Fighter

 

Can tank well enough to stand in the fray and beat down the enemy with minimal babysitting required

 

Race = Boreal Dwarf - dwarves are cool and +15 accuracy to two of the more common enemies is not inconsequential

 

Culture = Deadfire archipelago - for the +1 to dex

 

Might = 20 - a high might helps damage, scroll use, and the fighterpassive endurance regen

 

Con = 9 - high enough

 

Dex = 18 - faster is better, more actions make for more damage

 

Per = 10 - no malus, but no bonus. wanted the concentration more than the interrupt

 

Int = 3 - fighter's don't have much for duration abilities so no big harm. Knockdown lasts for 3.3 sec instead of 5 sec

 

Res = 18 - balances the bad will save from the intellect dump, gives good dialogue, gives good concentration

 

Talents/Abilities (in order taken)

 

1.) Disciplined barrage - a +10 accuracy helps to get hits or more crits, doesn't last long. Replace with two knockdowns if you prefer. I like it as it is a one click at the start of every battle, many times I forget to use all or some of my knockdowns

 

2.) Weapon focus - +6 accuracy is nice, especially at low levels, I went with Adventurer

 

3.) Defender - modal ability adds deflection and two more engagements at the cost of 0.8 attack speed. You can turn it off when not needed.

 

4.) Wary Defender - makes defender better with +15 deflection, +10 reflex, will and fortitude saves

 

5.)Weapon specialization - adds +15% damage to all the weapons in your weapon group. Makes you flexible in that your ranged, one hand and two handed all get better.

 

6.) Weapon Style - I went with two handed for the +15% damage, dual wield would also suffice here

 

7.)Armored Grace - reduces armor speed reduction by 16%, makes plate as fast as scale. This makes your actions faster, faster means more damage output.

 

8.) Weapon Mastery - another +10% damage to your weapon group for a total of +25% that only fighters can get

 

9.) Critical Defense - reduces 20% of incoming crits to hits and 10% of hits to grazes. Since your deflection is not maxed, you will get hit and this will lessen the blow. Not sure if it works for spells as well

 

10.) Your choice - I went with Superior Deflection - +5 deflection not super but the choices were not that great. Take whatever suits you here.

 

11.) Unbroken - a self res to 50% endurance that also gives you +5 DR, +10 deflection and +10 saves - if you need it this is a great ability

 

12.) Your choice - I went with Rapid Recovery - +1 End regen modified by your might, adds to your Constant Recovery ability, again not super but the choices were not that great. Take whatever suits you here.

 

The team and their damages are:

 

PC two hander Estoc/Warbow - 92K damage with 8 KO

 

Eder Sabre & Shield/ Pistol - 35K damage with 10 KO

 

Aloth - 36K  with 13 KO

 

Durance - 19K with 11 KO

 

Grieving Mother (replaced Kana at level 9) - 15K with 5 KO

 

Sagani - around 25 K, maybe 8-10 KO her stats got reset.

 

 

With this spec a fighter is not a meat shield agro bot but a true tank like the Sherman tank in Fury. An ass kicker in full plate packing steel.


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#34
dukefx

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And how much did the others do? Have they all been in the party for as long? How far progressed is the save? What difficulty?

This is on my 1st PotD, near the end. A few minor quests here and there + jumping down the rabbit hole is all that's left. The others are also early to get companions meaning I have no OP cipher to deal most of the damage. I won't fire up the game just to check the others, but I know my lowest damage dealer is Durance with 16k something and my highest is either Aloth or my PC.



#35
Exoduss

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Nice guide but very inaccurate at some points especially in later part of the guide , some real stupid sentences atleast add some explanation to them :  that XXX is Useless for a Warrior Tank dont speak in general . Edit : seems op has very narrow understanding whats good and whats bad and just calls most of things useless . Warrior Tanks are useless no utility after they engage few enemies . beat this 


Edited by Exoduss, 17 April 2015 - 07:18 AM.


#36
Crucis

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This build sacrifices too much. You're over-tanking. Having a meat-sack who can't do anything other than get hit isn't really helpful.

I disagree with all my heart. One of those in front and five glass cannons in the back. I "sacrifice" even more on my fighters.

 

 

And I disagree with you completely.  Creating a tank whose only purpose is to suck the enemy into attacking him uselessly to "protect" the glass cannons behind him is total cheese in my book.  All you're doing is turning the AI against itself.  Any "realistic" enemies would quickly realize that trying to attack the unhittable tank was pointless and just turn to go after the other party members.

 

Frankly, it's not that hard to create a tough to hit tank who can also deal respectable damage as well. For crying out loud, Eder fully armored up with a 1H weapon and a shield and various other buffing items can be a very difficult to hit tank while still making most enemies who dare to engage him pay for doing so.  And he's a lot more "realistic" in my book than some excessively min-maxed, next to no offense, aggro magnet tank whose only purpose is to abuse the AI.

 

 

What you are saying makes no sense...
In EVERY IE game, the tank is the damage soaker. How is that cheesing?

 

 

No, that's not the job of a true tank.  A true tank is not a character that's nothing but a damage sponge.  A true tank goes to front line, tries to be as tough to hit as possible while at the same time dealing a respectable level of damage to those attacking him.    Characters who are nothing but damage sponges are just cheese-tanks.
 

 

 

Well, that's a point of view.

In my book, a tank is primarily a "damage sponge" and utility character.

If you want to build yours with more DPS, that's fine, but don't try to turn your opinion into more than it is.

 

 

 

Glasny, a pure damage sponge, no-offense fighter is nothing but a rules-lawyering, uber min-maxing cheese build.  (But if that's what you want to play, so be it.)

 

As for me building characters with more DPS, I don't.  I just don't think in those terms.  I'm thinking in terms of creating a fighter or an archer or whatever the character is meant to be within the context of the RPG environment.


Edited by Crucis, 17 April 2015 - 07:46 AM.


#37
omgFIREBALLS

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And how much did the others do? Have they all been in the party for as long? How far progressed is the save? What difficulty?

This is on my 1st PotD, near the end. A few minor quests here and there + jumping down the rabbit hole is all that's left. The others are also early to get companions meaning I have no OP cipher to deal most of the damage. I won't fire up the game just to check the others, but I know my lowest damage dealer is Durance with 16k something and my highest is either Aloth or my PC.

 

Okay, well I'm mostly looking for the relative damage values, like how much damage did Edér do compared to Hiravias if you have him. And I'm gonna tell you you're obviously doing something wrong if Hiravias isn't 10x Edér ;)

 

Anyway the party I referenced there has just started act 3, not touched the Endless Paths or gone after Aelys but done probably 90% of everything else there is to do in acts 1 and 2. On a party that finished PotD the tank with a pretty similar build did 16k (druid 200k).

 

If I cared to really play every single battle to perfection, the numbers would be even more polarized. Now it's just if it's a trash fight, I paralyze one guy with the cipher (or amp-wave at this point) and everyone autoattacks. I could bother to throw low level spells and I could bother to pop +20 defense on the tank because absolute minmax. I'm also too lazy to fire a gun at the start of a fight with the tank, which indeed would account for some damage that wouldn't cost me anything.

 

Anyhow, for serious fights, my glass cannon setup plays to obliterate. Throw three buffs with the priest, summons out to pick up stray mobs, rogue and cipher going on the important targets while the druid and wizard just cause mayhem. At this point they usually kill stuff so fast, even say the highest level bounties, that I find myself wishing enemies had three times the health just so I could unload more spells upon them. Not out to brag, just saying, the five glass cannons (or four, priest is just glass) do annihilate monsters and the tank doesn't really get much time to swing his weapon. Therefore, his sustained damage isn't important.

 

But I guess the fewer cannons you have, the more relevant the tank's damage becomes. I much enjoy this style though, so my tank is always overkill on defense. If he's going to stand in the middle of everything, my casters can't be blamed if he takes a little friendly fire. :D



#38
Crucis

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Here is my fighter spec'd for damage. This was on hard, level 12 now, not finished yet with game. This is my first playthrough.

 

 

 

Damage Spec'd Fighter

 

Can tank well enough to stand in the fray and beat down the enemy with minimal babysitting required

 

Race = Boreal Dwarf - dwarves are cool and +15 accuracy to two of the more common enemies is not inconsequential

 

(snip)

 

With this spec a fighter is not a meat shield agro bot but a true tank like the Sherman tank in Fury. An ass kicker in full plate packing steel.

 

KDubya, looks like a nice balance between offense and defense that was clearly capable of kicking butt and taking names.  The dumped INT was a bit cheesy for my taste, but I've seen far worse when it comes to cheesy min-maxed stat builds.  Kudos for a nicely built Fighter!

 

Speaking those Boreal dwarves' bonuses, one of the problems I have in the game is knowing what's what when it comes to those categories.  Kiths are easy enough.  They're essentially just people.  But it gets dodgy knowing what's a beast and what's a wilder and what's a primordial, for example.  Still, I suppose that having 2 of the five (?) categories is a pretty decent benefit.
 



#39
dukefx

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Sorry, can't help you with that. Hiravias is pretty much 0 x Edér because I don't use him. Did his quest, which was 1 encounter. Other than that he was escorting or going on adventures.



#40
KDubya

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Here is my fighter spec'd for damage. This was on hard, level 12 now, not finished yet with game. This is my first playthrough.

 

 

 

Damage Spec'd Fighter

 

Can tank well enough to stand in the fray and beat down the enemy with minimal babysitting required

 

Race = Boreal Dwarf - dwarves are cool and +15 accuracy to two of the more common enemies is not inconsequential

 

(snip)

 

With this spec a fighter is not a meat shield agro bot but a true tank like the Sherman tank in Fury. An ass kicker in full plate packing steel.

 

KDubya, looks like a nice balance between offense and defense that was clearly capable of kicking butt and taking names.  The dumped INT was a bit cheesy for my taste, but I've seen far worse when it comes to cheesy min-maxed stat builds.  Kudos for a nicely built Fighter!

 

Speaking those Boreal dwarves' bonuses, one of the problems I have in the game is knowing what's what when it comes to those categories.  Kiths are easy enough.  They're essentially just people.  But it gets dodgy knowing what's a beast and what's a wilder and what's a primordial, for example.  Still, I suppose that having 2 of the five (?) categories is a pretty decent benefit.
 

 

 

 

From the wiki

 

In the traditional lands of the boreal dwarves, primordial creatures (oozes, sentient fungi and plants) and wilder (ogres, skuldrs, trolls, vithracks, and xaurips) have long preyed on isolated hunters. Generations of conflict with these creatures has given the boreal dwarves inherent Accuracy bonuses against them.

 

 

I encounter the above a lot more than poison or disease damage which is for mountain dwarves.

 

A pale elf makes for a good choice as well, cuts down on the friendly fire from your wizard.

 

Regarding the intellect dump - you can cut from resolve and place into intellect. Your will save stays the same, you lose concentration, deflection and gain some duration on abilities. If you have house rules on how low a stat can be the base concept still works just won't be as efficient. My personal house rule is to not use the godmode race. If I need to use one to make it work I'd rather drop the difficulty.

 

PotD will be the next challenge, will see if my play style works there or not.







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