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@Namutree

 

By the way you're defining tank and spank, then yes every battle can be won by that strategy, but there can be so much variety within that paradigm.  I mean, every CRPG and for that matter PnP combat system would be "tank and spank!" In BG2 you send forward your fighters, who do fairly little damage but hold back the monsters from killing your mages and clerics, who either dump spells or arrows on your feckless opponents.  I think the more pertinent issue is that you feel you don't have to react in combat, that you never need to change up how you tank or spank.  The game seems to me to dry all sorts of ways to mix things up (enemies who charm, enemies who paralyze, enemies who explode, enemies who knock you prone with every blow, etc, and of course the whole system of DRs).  but I agree, for some reason it doesn't quite work.

 

I would suggest that trolls and golems are not the best example of BG enemies.  For one thing, they require absolutely no strategy to defeat, merely the right weapon!  Just equip +2 maces and pound, or in trolls case, just pound and then use their elemental weakness! If you know DnD this is obvious, if you don't you are absolutely dead!  There is an amazingly evil bit of level design in BG2 involving, the golem vault in the D'Arnise Keep, but I think the trick is that you don't have to, and most likely can't at your level, kill the golems.  

 

I'm curious, btw, what combat systems in RPGs do you like (besides BG)?  

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No flames. The ADnD 2nd Edition is the greatest RPG ruleset ever made.  Everything since then has been MMO influenced munchkinism.  No game today could compare with the tactical variety of BG2

 

Arguments could be made for 3.5 and Temple of elemental evil. 

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Well it depends what you mean by "Spank and Tank"

 

If you mean put tank upfront while everyone behind uses missile weapons and maybe some AoE spells without moving, then there are many fights that meat your criteria:

 

Any fight involving spirits! 

The last fight in the Skaen temple where a well placed trap defeats the door jam strategy

The Worm fight in Searing Bluffs

The Ogre Matron fight (if you're at appropriate level)

The Evil Playhouse Fight (at least on hard you're attacked on both sides)

The last battle in the Game 

 

Also, at least theoretically Flame Blights should make this strategy impossible, but they simply don't do enough damage when they explode

 

Tank and spank does work for:

 

I used Tank and Spank with the spirits in the light house. I know how to do it now to some degree.

Last fight in Skaen Temple. Don't know what you mean by the trap and didn't use the door as a choke point.

Worm fights in Searing Bluffs. I even showed a video where the drakes ignore your back line while flying through your back line.

Ogre Matron fight.

 

Don't know about Evil playhouse or last battle as I haven't got up to that yet.

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Well it depends what you mean by "Spank and Tank"

 

If you mean put tank upfront while everyone behind uses missile weapons and maybe some AoE spells without moving, then there are many fights that meat your criteria:

 

Any fight involving spirits! 

The last fight in the Skaen temple where a well placed trap defeats the door jam strategy

The Worm fight in Searing Bluffs

The Ogre Matron fight (if you're at appropriate level)

The Evil Playhouse Fight (at least on hard you're attacked on both sides)

The last battle in the Game 

 

Also, at least theoretically Flame Blights should make this strategy impossible, but they simply don't do enough damage when they explode

 

Tank and spank does work for:

 

I used Tank and Spank with the spirits in the light house. I know how to do it now to some degree.

Last fight in Skaen Temple. Don't know what you mean by the trap and didn't use the door as a choke point.

Worm fights in Searing Bluffs. I even showed a video where the drakes ignore your back line while flying through your back line.

Ogre Matron fight.

 

Don't know about Evil playhouse or last battle as I haven't got up to that yet.

 

 

I should clarify that by tank and spank not working I mean naive tanking and spanking, where you merely use the same strategies by rote, without doing cool things, like controlling enemy movement with the priest spell "halt" and flanking with Aloth to spam lightning bolt.  Every combat in PoE is to some extent going to be tank and spank, because that's how the system works, but if you're doing cool things what's the problem? I mean, if there is an enemy that Eder is not strong enough to take on, the usual strategy is to blind or stun them, precisely so that you can tank them!

 

I should note, that I meant the big boss in the cave, not any random worm fight!  On hard at least, the issue is the hord of enemies that approach over a wide front including xaurip shamans.  You can turtle up at a choke point, but if you do, you risk being destroyed by the breath attack, and will have difficulty taking out the priests that keep the boss healed. It's a clever fight, particularly if you're under level for it, which I was. 

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No flames. The ADnD 2nd Edition is the greatest RPG ruleset ever made.  Everything since then has been MMO influenced munchkinism.  No game today could compare with the tactical variety of BG2

 

Arguments could be made for 3.5 and Temple of elemental evil. 

 

 

DnD 5th Edition seems pretty good from my limited tabletop experience with it. It's pretty well received among the Tabletop faithful anyway, I had a great time on the starter campaign. 

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I should note, that I meant the big boss in the cave, not any random worm fight!  On hard at least, the issue is the hord of enemies that approach over a wide front including xaurip shamans.  You can turtle up at a choke point, but if you do, you risk being destroyed by the breath attack, and will have difficulty taking out the priests that keep the boss healed. It's a clever fight, particularly if you're under level for it, which I was. 

 

 

I only play on hard and didn't have a problem tanking and spanking that fight. So much that my ranged characters were naked which they've been for 99% of the time. I don't know if it's my game and I'm experiencing some anomalous A.I. problems and I have easier fights or what I'm experiencing is normal. :shrugz:

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What's the problem with your range characters being naked?  It's a totally valid choice, and one that has some actual costs in the game (i.e. with spirits)  Are you just sitting around watching the game play itself or are you fighting for your life by using your abilities?  That's the question.  When you're at a hard fight with over leveled enemies I find the combat in this game really great.  You have to keep repositioning your forces, chaining abilities together (move your wizard behind the enemy line, dump a potion of eldrich aim, spam fan of flames, but only if you've already engaged all the enemies ), monitor a number of different timers.  

 

But if you're overleveled and the combat is too easy, it sort of plays itself, and gets tedious fast. Is this only my experience?

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What's the problem with your range characters being naked?  It's a totally valid choice, 

It's actually sub-optimal to be naked. Clothes don't give any penalties, but can still be enchanted.

Edited by Namutree

"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I thought the story was pretty great. I barely ever finish games these days but I never wanted to stop playing this until I was done.

 

Combat was alright for me, mainly because I suck and didn't bother getting a full understanding of the rules. I never planned much or read the beastiary so every fight felt different and I had to think on my feet lol. It was hard all the way through. I really disliked it at first but once I got more abilities and more members it became fun.

 

My biggest problem was your companions not auto-attacking if they weren't hit by that enemy. I mean they are watching their party leader get beat on by a massive dragon but if that dragon didn't hit them in particular they'll just stand there. Also pathfinding in combat was terrible, fighting in hallways was rage-inducing but it just made me want to beat the game more

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 I can wear clothes and enchant them but I'm choosing to not wear clothes to see how far I can go.

It hardly makes a difference.

"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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It hardly makes a difference.

 

Well if considering DR reduction, and +1 or +2 to attributes hardly makes a difference when enchanting clothes, then perhaps you're right. But I'm doing this to see if you can play through with your back line being nude. So many people on this forum said you wouldn't be able to. That your back line would be targeted. The videos I've posted shows that's not the case.

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Here's my two cents:

I had played the beta a lot, almost always on Easy or Normal, but I knew the mechanics decently. Also, I had replayed games like BG1, ToEE, NWN2 OC and PST before I got my hands on PoE.

My first playthrough became a plain PoTD with three party members: Aloth, Eder and Durance, and three home-made adventurers (a sucky Ranger, I had to have Indira Lightfoot in my first party, though, it's tradition, a two-weapon fighter, and then my main Breida; an Aumauan Druid (very competent druidic tank - I soon felt she could solo like 60% of all PotD-content, which inspired me to use my first party as pathfinders for my second campaign, which is now in mid-Act II: a Triple Crown Solo PotD hellride with a cipher charmer runner sneaker trapper (I do use quit and reload and a few glitches to my advantage, so it's far, far from clean, hehe.)

 

The pros:

-I absolutely love the story. Considering it's a low-level CRPG, it's brilliant, it's a homerun out of the ballpark, kind of thing. Superb!

-Music, sound effects, art - everything is outstanding! Love it, love it, love it!

-Very nice exploration and plenty of hidden stuff for a completionist on a first playthrough

-Pretty decent class/race/build smorgasbord, at least on paper, as it were.

-Combat on the PotD-level is truly deadly, and it is especially fun in Act I and half Act II, this also goes for triple crown solo, it seems. I like that complete urgency feeling.

-Aloth and Durance are great fun as companions, while Eder is so-n-so.

 

The cons:

-Party play is basically me directing and owning combat with my tank Breida, with the exception of teleporting phantoms/shades etc and burrowing beetles, nothing can really touch this "put the tank in a choke point, and rain ranged pain and AoE hell on them baddies"-tactic. I do, however, have a variety of ranged attacks and spells to pick from, so it's not all monotonous. Breida is very rarely hurt at all (I've built her entirely as a tank - so she has super-high defences in everything and dex 3 - you get the picture - she can stand in her own AoE effect and melt almost any group of baddies herself, without any party. However, I have Aloth be the big damage dealer, and that he certainly is. As a contrast, I use Durance in the old pre-buff role of the IE games, but he's doing it in combat, instead. He's built entirely as a support character. He has 800 damage in like 90 hours of play time. He simply protects, heals and buffs my party, nothing else, and that is a bit boring. I am dreaming of the 3.5 ed D&D monster priests of doom.

-Soloing the game is far too much a matter of RNG - the system doesn't really allow for my skills being rewarded with my passing/resolving encounters (including violently). Often, it's all up to where I am at the start, casting the same spell, running in the right direction fast, chance has a lot do with it, sadly. I keep pressing on, however, although it's a chore, sometimes. I feel such a challenge should involve tactics, first and foremost. That's why I don't like some fights where you get entirely locked in, with nearly no tactical options available to you when combat starts but trying to flee to some corner and survive.

-Some of the quest nesting in Defiance Bay is too confusing, and it's easy to make a mistake and almost wreck the game without you knowing it.

-Crafting is alright, but it still feels lacklustre. When you play on potD, and even more so soloing it all, you do need to use food, crafted stuff and scrolls, etc, a lot. You wouldn't make it, otherwise, which in itself is a flaw, I reckon.

 

Overall, though, I'm extremely happy with the game. It's certainly a low-level classic isometric CRPG, already.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot
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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Heh. I can also confirm this: My robe-clad ranger with super-high dex pumping arrows swiftly is almost always targeted as soon as the first arrow hits, even by non-hit enemies. Something in the code gets flagged, and then they even stupidly sacrifice disengagement just to get her. The rest of my party is much more armoured/protected, and the game knows it - but I use that to my advantage. My ranger is my bait. Also, I've built Aloth to be pretty tanky for being a wizard.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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I've noticed (maybe with new patch) that if I'm fighting a big group and haven't engaged the range in the back, that they seem to always target my cipher or aloth.

Yep, same here. My Cipher has suffered, at this point, 27 knockouts. The next highest in my party has 5. She was wearing only clothing, so I finally tossed some heavy armor on her and now she's rarely targeted.

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Indeed. In order to play PoE durably and reasonably safe in all situations, even sneaky run-off-at-first-sight-of-any-threat builds, especially at higher difficulties, the naked approach is very rarely a good idea - and for solo play it's suicidal.

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Yeah, it looks like some logic has been added for enemies to target units with the lowest deflection/defensive or DR rating.

 

Now we just need logic to improve how enemies prioritize threats when determining whether to disengage (i.e. disengage from tanks doing little damage to rush after back-line units) and we may have tactical combat, in open areas at least.

Edited by View619
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They did stealth add some AI to this 1.04 patch, for better or worse.

 

It still doesn't really fix the main problem: Enagement. 

 

If you're not a tank, Engagement is like basically death. Now that the enemies don't huddle around Eder anymore, it's just more of a pause fest so I can get my Cipher or Mage out of trouble.

 

The system to me is just not intuitive. 

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They did stealth add some AI to this 1.04 patch, for better or worse.

 

It still doesn't really fix the main problem: Enagement.

 

If you're not a tank, Engagement is like basically death. Now that the enemies don't huddle around Eder anymore, it's just more of a pause fest so I can get my Cipher or Mage out of trouble.

 

The system to me is just not intuitive.

Then switch out for melee weapons and some cc or cc and get away and/or bring a melee in to engage them so that they get engaged to them as u move them away or.....

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I really just don't get the complaints here.  I mean, really.

 

I find the world-building to be detailed and convincing.  The history and lore feels cohesive and interesting.  I find the big mystery behind the main story and how it ties into the world at large intriguing.  I can vaguely make out the web of connections between world, lore, and story, but I can't imagine yet how they all tie together.  I'm finding myself drawn toward finding answers and solutions.  The only thing I halfway agree with is that the companions, while likeable, are pretty flat so far.

 

The combat system rides a fine line between locked-down control and total chaos.  Sometimes I can wade in and set my positioning and dictate the way an entire fight will play out, and I like that feeling.  Sometimes my plans break down completely and I'm scrambling around vomiting every spell I have just to stay alive, and I like that feeling too.  I have no emotional attachment to the system that underlaid the old IE games, so I'm focused on learning THIS system, and it's working fine.

 

It seems to me, when you step back and view the big picture, that all the complaints about Pillars of Eternity basically boil down to, "It's not Baldur's Gate."  No, it's not, and it was never going to be.  Given that D&D is just a grab bag of incoherent fantasy tropes lumped together under a truly clumsy and nonsensical ruleset, this is to my mind a very good thing.  Pillars of Eternity is its own game with its own systems.  It's time to adapt and move on.

Edited by Sable Phoenix
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"It seems to me, when you step back and view the big picture, that all the complaints about Pillars of Eternity basically boil down to, "It's not Baldur's Gate."

\

Don't lie. the fact the main plot is nothing more than a rip off DOS has nothing to do with BG. The fact that jello can be knocked down,  that fire eleementals can be burned being stupid has nothing to do with BG2. The fact the end of ch2 is pure moroncicy has nothing to do with BG. Need I go on? The game has LOTS of weaknesses that having nothing to do with BG.

 

PE is a fun game but it has a lot of horrible garbage in it that holds it down.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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