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Torment's reach +50% crush damage is multiplicative ( calculated of total damage) and can hit multiple targets.. But is not strictly tied to using fists.. You can use it with weapons too and sabres and 2h weapons will do more damage per swing than fists (more torment's reach damage per activation) ..

 

Dual fists will "unload" multiple wounds/torment's fastest (due to their maximum attack speed)

Edited by peddroelm

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Torment's reach +50% crush damage is multiplicative ( calculated of total damage) and can hit multiple targets.. But is not strictly tied to using fists.. You can use it with weapons too and sabres and 2h weapons will do more damage per swing than fists (more torment's reach damage per activation)

Thats even worse lol. You have no idea what you are talking about. Its much better to get flat dmg increase before armor (like barb), then after.

Edited by nemesis205bw

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what i find funny is, how the monk defenders just simply ignore that you need to take a lot of damage to make the monk shine. which means, you need serious healing for a monk to get his full potential.

a barbarian on the other hand (without including the bugged OSA) can deal his damage without constant damage intake)

so for a monk to make more damage than a barbarian, you need another character which is pretty occupied by healing the monk.

and a barbarian, when played smart, doesn't need this healing.

so yeah a monk can outdamage a barbarian on single targets... but you also need another party member with near constant healing to provide this...

a pretty unfair comparison i think...

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so yeah a monk can outdamage a barbarian on single targets... 

Even with healers, it is not true.

 

And monk that get hit alot will last only few fights before having to rest. Heals only work on endurance.

Edited by nemesis205bw

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so yeah a monk can outdamage a barbarian on single targets... 

Even with healers, it is not true.

 

And monk that get hit alot will last only few fights before having to rest. Heals only work on endurance.

 

i know, i wanted to give monk a favour and show how redundand the little gain is...

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Any weapon with elemental enchant does the job better...

 

 

Even if this were true, it fails to factor in that Torment's Reach spam = ridiculous amounts of damage. Any monk can easily do this.

 

So +50% dmg per hit is ridiculous amount of damage?

 

 

+50% dmg per hit is on par with a crit, so yes, it is ridiculous amounts of damage when you have a class "critting" every half a second.


"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

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This whole half a second thing is really irking me for some reason. How exactly are you getting half a second here? Fist, being 'fast' is an attack speed of 2/3rds a second + 4/5ths a second of recovery IF you have no armor on (and 10 dex). With no armor on, and 25 dex (just to grab a high number) your looking at.. 1.188 seconds combined attack speed + recovery.  It's literally impossible for you to do it once every half a second. More so you'd have to be naked as **** to even get it to 1 second flat.

 

Maybe your just hyperboling... probably, considering you'd also have to get hit enough times to even sustain it every 'half a second'. At minimum you'd have to take 16 dmg a SECOND for the 2 wounds, per second, you'd need to spam it twice a second. With 20 con you'd be dead in... 12 seconds at that rate - AT level 12.

 

I think your better off stating an actual reason for why they do more dmg then just blindly throwing out this half a second BS. You kinda sound like those senators on gun control sayin' folks can fire 60 rounds a second with a semi-auto anything (which takes a 5-6 barrel mini-gun to achieve heh). But hey, facts, who needs that ****.

Edited by Adhin
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Def Con: kills owls dead

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Take a decent hit and you'll easily have +5 wounds, it's really not hard to spam torment's reach at all, and it has a very short recovery time.  You can even set it up by tossing a fire ball at your monk and his opponents, he won't take to much damage but will get some wounds to start dishing out the pain.  Swift strikes basically equals frenzy except you can keep it up a heck of a lot longer.

 

All I'm seeing here is a bunch of theorycrafting by people who haven't ever played a monk seriously, or who haven't ever played barb seriously.  I've run both on quite a few of my teams and from my experience barb wins at aoe and monk wins at single target, total damage done is almost always nearly equal.

 

But anyways, it doesn't matter what I or anyone says, this thread is just going to be an argument between fanboys who've never seriously played the opposite class, I suggest to the OP that you just try them both out and see what you think for yourself.

Edited by Climhazzard
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Take a decent hit and you'll easily have +5 wounds, it's really not hard to spam torment's reach at all, and it has a very short recovery time.  You can even set it up by tossing a fire ball at your monk and his opponents, he won't take to much damage but will get some wounds to start dishing out the pain.  Swift strikes basically equals frenzy except you can keep it up a heck of a lot longer.

 

All I'm seeing here is a bunch of theorycrafting by people who haven't ever played a monk seriously, or who haven't ever played barb seriously.  I've run both on quite a few of my teams and from my experience barb wins at aoe and monk wins at single target, total damage done is almost always nearly equal.

 

But anyways, it doesn't matter what I or anyone says this thread is just going to be an argument between fanboys who've never seriously played the opposite class, I suggest to the OP that you just try them both out and see what you think for yourself.

and after a second decent hit you are dead... congratulations!

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If you say so, my monk will have 10 wounds by half health, which is pretty much enough to clear every mob on the screen, including the tough ones.  Drop a pain tolerance on him and he's an unstoppable killing machine.  Wear the boots "shod-in-faith" and you can accumulate so many wounds without getting knocked out that nothing else will compare.   But if you'd rather imagine him as a squishy front liner who can't do any damage, then I guess that's okay with me, maybe he'll get buffed as a result so he becomes OP.  I just hope he doesn't get nerfed directly after when people realize he was really good to begin with.

Edited by Climhazzard

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Attack speed should be moot. Most of your attacks come from retaliation.

 

For true maximum dps, you need to stack 3 pieces of retaliation gear and tank at least 3 enemies. Fast dual wielding is roughly 0.7 attacks per second.  3 dual wielding enemies will trigger 27 retaliation attacks in 3 seconds; a dual wielding monk will make 3 attacks and a 2H barbarian will make 1 attack in that time for 30 monk attacks vs. 28 barbarian attacks.

 

7% more attacks is not worth mentioning. The draining enchant, base damage vs. flat DR and multipliers are much more important.

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I really hope that the gods of balancing eventually make it so that retaliation doesn't factor into these conversations.  If you are considering retaliation then barbs easily win since one stands alone affects retaliation damage, groups of mobs explode just from touching a barb using that combo.

Edited by Climhazzard
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Because of higher crit chance (threatening presence + brute force), frenzy, blooded and ocasionally bloodlust. No contest.

 

One stands alone is currently bugged, but when fixed it should give atleast 20% more dmg which is still alot.

 

Nothing you named actually factors into Higher crit chance, or does so minimally.

 

Even so, you're failing to realize that you're arguing the barbarian has higher crit chance. HOW?  This is practically impossible, because the Monk is "critting" with every Torment's Reach, which he is spamming out at every .5 second interval. It's a move that adds as much damage as a critical but isn't actually a critical, meaning it too can critical and hit even harder. The Monk also naturally has better accuracy and therefore better crit rate.

 

Barbarian can easily outdamage Monk when surrounded and able to exploit his AOE melee, but if we're talking single target, I dare say Monk is the champion amongst all the classes for killing singular targets the fastest.

 

 

Do you even know how Brute Force works? Also, considering the vast majority of encounters consist of groups your argument isn't doing the Monk any favors. 

 

 

 

Without bugs -> Overall still barb, but monk has a small edge single target I think

And where that edge comes from?

 

Well, barb has only frenzy (+33 atk speed for quite short duration), blooded (situational, +20% dmg) and one stands alone(presumably +20% damage once it is fixed, right now it is in the "don't take if you don't want to break the game category",  and also a bit situational) for single target.

 

 

With Beserker belt and high Int frenzy will last around 20+ seconds.. Considering certain races can have upwards to 30 might with greater frenzy the majority of encounters will be over well before frenzy expires. OSA not even required. 

 

A monk may have a slight advantage against say the Adra dragon, assuming it will survive the aoe. Like it even matters when it will be dead in seconds after 1 petrify and/or a couple paralyze. Meanwhile the Barb will be well ahead in overall damage against the 2000+ other creatures in the game you'll be killing. 

 

Another thing that isn't being addressed is carnage's ability to poop out aoe weapon procs which can in turn increase group dps by a large margin. 

Edited by PIP-Clownboy

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I really hope that the gods of balancing eventually make it so that retaliation doesn't factor into these conversations. 

 

I do, too. But for the moment, I'm baffled at the number of posts concerning attack speed in this thread.

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If you say so, my monk will have 10 wounds by half health, which is pretty much enough to clear every mob on the screen, including the tough ones.  Drop a pain tolerance on him and he's an unstoppable killing machine.  Wear the boots "shod-in-faith" and you can accumulate so many wounds without getting knocked out that nothing else will compare.   But if you'd rather imagine him as a squishy front liner who can't do any damage, then I guess that's okay with me, maybe he'll get buffed as a result so he becomes OP.  I just hope he doesn't get nerfed directly after when people realize he was really good to begin with.

 

and how often do you have to rest for that?

you send your monk in, to get your ass swooped, just to get him to his full potential, which is, i already admitted, very strong.

the thing is, that you lose a lot of health in the process (health not endurance)

and you get just a bit more damage than a barbarian.

while the barbarian can be used from second row behind the tanks to dish out nearly as much damage on a single target.

that is the big problem with monks. for them to get their full potential, you have to send them on a suicide mission, which is totally counter intuitive.

there isn't even a way to increase that potential besides the lesser wounds talent.

the monk design in it's origin was a pretty cool idea, but it got changed in a way, that it got pretty lackluster.

at this time, there is always a better alternative for a monk.

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They basically have the highest health pool in the game, I think barbs do too.  A monk could get knocked out 5 times in a row and still have nearly as much health as a wizard that got knocked out once.  Not that my monk gets knocked out every fight, because that would be sort of a nuisance.  Usually its my caster health pools that decide my rest usage.

 

Level 12 monk with 12 constitution has 219 endurance and 1247 health.  I very often use my wizard to cast fan of flames at my monk and her opponents (generate wounds and fry opponents), and still don't run low on health before the squishier party members.

Edited by Climhazzard
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They basically have the highest health pool in the game, I think barbs do too.  A monk could get knocked out 5 times in a row and still have more health than a cipher or wizard that got knocked out once.  Not that my monk gets knocked out every fight, because that would be sort of a nuisance.  Usually its my caster health pools that decide my rest usage.

 

Level 12 monk with 12 constitution has 219 endurance and 1247 health.  I very often use my wizard to cast fan of flames at my monk and her opponents (generate wounds and fry opponents), and still don't run low on health before the squishier party members.

 

you even hurt your monk yourself, to get him to work?

wow... well i would call that a design flaw in the mechanics... but there seem to be enough masochists here, who like that kind of extra difficulty, so what do i know...

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My wizard should be thankful he has such a brave decoy available! 

it certainly is a good strategy i have to admit.

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My wizard should be thankful he has such a brave decoy available! 

it certainly is a good strategy i have to admit.

 

 

Just don't try it at level 3 unless your character is a pale elf with a focus on reflexes.  At higher levels it works good regardless of character build.

Edited by Climhazzard
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A monk could get knocked out 5 times in a row and still have more health than a cipher or wizard that got knocked out once. 

How is that? Cipher has 4 health per endurance and monk 6. If cipher get knocked out once he still has 75% health. If monk get knocked out 5 times hes left with just 16% health. Your logic and overall arguments are just... no comment.

Edited by nemesis205bw

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Yes it appears it only really applies to wizard and not cipher, and is still a slight exaggeration as the wizard would have to be knocked out closer to 1.5 times, I've edited it to make it a bit more valid.

Edited by Climhazzard

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Barbarian is better for multi-target DPS, but Mork has Mindy to help him, so I'd call it a toss-up.

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If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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Any weapon with elemental enchant does the job better...

 

 

Even if this were true, it fails to factor in that Torment's Reach spam = ridiculous amounts of damage. Any monk can easily do this.

 

So +50% dmg per hit is ridiculous amount of damage?

 

 

+50% dmg per hit is on par with a crit, so yes, it is ridiculous amounts of damage when you have a class "critting" every half a second.

 

Lol rogue has as much with normal attacks and doesnt require to get hit... Actually its more because rogue bonus apply before armor and monks after.

 

Barb has +50% dps just from bloodlust and blooded. When you add frenzy it becomes 1.25*1.2*1.33*1.18=135% bonus dps. When you add +20% from unbugged OSA it is now 182% bonus. If you add +25% weapon enchant then barb will have 253% bonus dps!!! There are also enchants with 20% bonus attack speed so it gives us total 324% bonus dps!!! How can you compare your 50% (which is exaggeration because you cant spam it whole fight on every aa) to barbs 324%? And dont forget that barb has also abilities which boost that damage even more like barbarian blow.

 

And yes, barb will crit much more often because of how easy it is to apply weakened stance which translates to +20 acc for barb and another +10 from sickened (threatening presence) which gives barb 25 accuracy advantage over monk.

Edited by nemesis205bw

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