Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Russia declares war on memes

Memes Russia

  • Please log in to reply
75 replies to this topic

#41
vdrandom

vdrandom

    (0) Nub

  • Initiates
  • 0 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Basically, laws in Russia are made to be abused. This is no exception.



#42
Walsingham

Walsingham

    Obsidian VIP

  • Members
  • 5647 posts
  • Location:The drawing room of Lady Muldoon's residence one morning in early spring
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Of all the 'world leaders' out there, Putin is one of the most down to earth.

 


  • Rostere likes this

#43
Malcador

Malcador

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7775 posts
  • Location:Someplace in Canada
  • Xbox Gamertag:Pft, consoles.
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
Laws everywhere are meant to be abused. We have an anti terror one that one can use to move on groups the government deems a threat. Like environmentalists, etc.

Oh well, usual narrative
  • 213374U likes this

#44
Tort

Tort

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 37 posts

You appear to be taking seriously someone who writes that state sponsored channels are biased then immediately cites the BBC as an independent counterexample.

There is a difference between "state sponsored channels" (i.e. through the usual television\radio fees) and state owned\run channels. In particularly where state run channels dominate the media sector, and the government sets editorial policy for them, while stifling the independent broadcasters.

That why the comparison between BBC in UK and RT In Russia is foolhardy strawmen in the first place.

 

Laws everywhere are meant to be abused. We have an anti terror one that one can use to move on groups the government deems a threat. Like environmentalists, etc.

Yet another generic statement, that while true adds nothing of substance about the abuse of laws in Russia (e.g. their authoritarian\political application and corruption)

It is like saying 'yeah, but all government types has problems', in a response to a discussion listing the major issues with Theocracy.

Edited by Tort, 19 April 2015 - 06:41 AM.

  • BruceVC likes this

#45
Tort

Tort

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 37 posts

 

Of all the 'world leaders' out there, Putin is one of the most down to earth.

 

 

This reminds me a similar assertion:

 

Globally, you're probably the most popular man in modern history... you are looked on as a savior of sorts.
—RT's Peter Lavelle to Putin


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RT



#46
Malcador

Malcador

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7775 posts
  • Location:Someplace in Canada
  • Xbox Gamertag:Pft, consoles.
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Yet another generic statement, that while true adds nothing of substance about the abuse of laws in Russia (e.g. their authoritarian\political application and corruption)

It is like saying 'yeah, but all government types has problems', in a response to a discussion listing the major issues with Theocracy.


Oh great, another wannabe forum mod, policing discussion on a thread. Not really sure what you want of posts here, though, not really much more to add that you'd deem acceptable - I guess posts on why Russia is evil, or something ?

#47
Hurlshot

Hurlshot

    Obsidian Order Hockey Puck

  • Members
  • 9073 posts
  • Location:Gilroy, CA
  • Xbox Gamertag:Hurlshot
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

So whenever someone criticizes what you say, they are a wannabe forum mod who is trying to police discussion?  



#48
Zoraptor

Zoraptor

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2644 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Yeah, can't see any back seat moderating there.

 

OTOH, apparently serious linkage to rationalwiki? Ooooookeydokey.



#49
Malcador

Malcador

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7775 posts
  • Location:Someplace in Canada
  • Xbox Gamertag:Pft, consoles.
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

So whenever someone criticizes what you say, they are a wannabe forum mod who is trying to police discussion?


What's he criticizing other than it not meshing with what he determines the thread's purpose to be. But another blue oby, oh well.

#50
Tort

Tort

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 37 posts

OTOH, apparently serious linkage to rationalwiki? Ooooookeydokey.

I found rationalwiki to be extremely useful in cases where the hacks crawl out of the woodwork, and apparently seriously speaking of myth and untold truth that you will only going to hear at.. RT ! sure it lacks fineness but its straight, to the point, and saves time.. For example:
 

Russia Today is the only international news organisation that promotes conspiracy theories on an industrial scale. For example there is a compilation of, originally no less than 56 Russia Today YouTube videos on 9/11 (7 now deleted).[16] The majority publicise, and clearly support, conspiracy theories. The remainder involve other criticisms of the United States.



It also comes handy when people seriously compare publicly controlled organizations with government controlled media organizations, whose funding is separate and on top of the usual local tv\radio tax, which where created with purpose of projecting Russian POV to other countries. Which is highly politicized and has a bone to pick with the west.

Edited by Tort, 19 April 2015 - 11:30 PM.


#51
cirdanx

cirdanx

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 200 posts
  • Location:Austria
  • Steam:cirdanx

 

RT ! sure it lacks fineness but its straight, to the point, and saves time..

 

This is why i like RT and Sputnik. Despite opinion articles (which are clearly labeled that way, they are mostly doing a great job at simply laying out the facts. Usually their news goes like " X said this, Y this...this is the situation" end of story.

 

Compare this with most western media you find a striking gap between them, because wester narative is biased to no end AND full of lies. I see and hear that only a daily basis and it sickens me, which was the reason i turned to other news and mostly freelancer journalists. Reading the same story from various different sources who have nothing to do with eacher other gives at last a better impression of what is really going on than the same story, with the same logic faults on most western media, who are often owned by the same persons anyway.

 

Couple that with several high ranking journalists (especially here in europe) in the last decades coming out in the open and admitting their articles were given them by the sorts like CIA and there is no wonder that the **** propaganda on some "russian threat" isn´t working very well in europe.



#52
Tort

Tort

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 37 posts
Quote fail and BS.

Also I wish there was module for this forum that would allow to intersect activity to identify sockpuppets.

#53
cirdanx

cirdanx

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 200 posts
  • Location:Austria
  • Steam:cirdanx

Quote fail and BS.

Also I wish there was module for this forum that would allow to intersect activity to identify sockpuppets.

 

Quotefail? That was intentional and i just made my point clear. You can call it BS but it´s a fact and easily proven if you compare articles from them on the same subject with western media. I see that **** every day in newspaper and on tv because i live in a western country in the middle of europe and it´s very easy to follow US media too. Too bad i don´t share your opinion but that hardly makes me a sockpuppet. Pff troll.

 

And i wish there would be an intelligence test for the use of internet.


Edited by cirdanx, 21 April 2015 - 12:26 PM.


#54
Tort

Tort

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 37 posts
You'll be happy to know that there quite few of you here, who purportedly live in a western country, and have an extremely opinion about the west...

"because wester narative is biased to no end AND full of lies" - what about your narrative MR, you are western too, no?

In fact there isn´t that much difference in free speech if you compare russia and the west. The whole idea that everyone in the east is oppressed is realy nothing but a propaganda tool..

All the data on the issue, disagree with your idea of facts.

#55
cirdanx

cirdanx

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 200 posts
  • Location:Austria
  • Steam:cirdanx

You'll be happy to know that there quite few of you here, who purportedly live in a western country, and have an extremely opinion about the west...

"because wester narative is biased to no end AND full of lies" - what about your narrative MR, you are western too, no?
 

In fact there isn´t that much difference in free speech if you compare russia and the west. The whole idea that everyone in the east is oppressed is realy nothing but a propaganda tool..

All the data on the issue, disagree with your idea of facts.

 

 

Why should i be happy about it? I don´t need you to have the same opinion as me, but i also have no interest getting called a "sockpuppet" because i have a different opinion than you. Also my view on the "west" is not as extrem (whatever you are suggestion with that) as you may think.

In this specific subject, this thread here, i´m just sick with the same old story. "X country does this, how stupid are they look at us we are so much better" yeah no that is not true, this false sense of superiority is BS.

What kind of data disagrees with me? Some pools or "experts" on Fox? ABC? CBS? One very good friend of me spend half his life in russia and grew up there, i do believe him more than a news outlet. I also happen to know people living in Ukraine (before some had to flee).

Don´t get me wrong i do understand that you can easily find russians who would also disagree on that and frequently do so. They are allowed to have an opinion you know. Russia has a fifth column and there are people who are more pro-western. Though, they are a minority.

Also that was a fail quote, because i mention free speech and just like people are able to openly express their opinion against Obama, they do so against Putin in Russia too, just like in most countries the people in charge will have pro and contra followers. So whats the difference there? (and in both countries harsh critics will always get **** for their comments) I was talking about Media bias, as in propaganda and honestly after following this media campaign in the last 12 months, you have to be blind to believe that stuff that gets out there. Or maybe i was not being clear enough due to my lack of english skills i don´t know...

But again you can believe what you want, if there is no basis for a discussion to even begin with, there is no point in having one.



#56
Tort

Tort

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 37 posts

In fact there isn´t that much difference in free speech if you compare russia and the west. The whole idea that everyone in the east is oppressed is realy nothing but a propaganda tool..

All the data on the issue, disagree with your idea of facts.

What kind of data disagrees with me? Some pools or "experts" on Fox? ABC? CBS? One very good friend of me spend half his life in russia and grew up there, i do believe him more than a news outlet. I also happen to know people living in Ukraine (before some had to flee).

All data. There are no organizations that are gathering information on the various freedoms worldwide that paint a different picture than that. (as opposed to your beliefs\facts that are based on the opinion of one friend)
 

i mention free speech and just like people are able to openly express their opinion against Obama, they do so against Putin in Russia too

No they don't.
Spoiler

 

In this specific subject, this thread here, i´m just sick with the same old story. [...]this false sense of superiority is BS.

This thread is about yet another law that is likely to limit freedom of expression in Russia, if you feel that pointing out the recent history of Russia's shrinking civil liberties has anything todo with "sense of superiority" look inward to check why is that. Add to that your initial silly generalization, and idea of fact, i'd suggest major butthurt or disenchantment.

#57
cirdanx

cirdanx

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 200 posts
  • Location:Austria
  • Steam:cirdanx

 

 

 

In fact there isn´t that much difference in free speech if you compare russia and the west. The whole idea that everyone in the east is oppressed is realy nothing but a propaganda tool..

All the data on the issue, disagree with your idea of facts.

 

What kind of data disagrees with me? Some pools or "experts" on Fox? ABC? CBS? One very good friend of me spend half his life in russia and grew up there, i do believe him more than a news outlet. I also happen to know people living in Ukraine (before some had to flee).

 

All data. There are no organizations that are gathering information on the various freedoms worldwide that paint a different picture than that. (as opposed to your beliefs\facts that are based on the opinion of one friend)
 

i mention free speech and just like people are able to openly express their opinion against Obama, they do so against Putin in Russia too

No they don't.
Spoiler

 

In this specific subject, this thread here, i´m just sick with the same old story. [...]this false sense of superiority is BS.

This thread is about yet another law that is likely to limit freedom of expression in Russia, if you feel that pointing out the recent history of Russia's shrinking civil liberties has anything todo with "sense of superiority" look inward to check why is that. Add to that your initial silly generalization, and idea of fact, i'd suggest major butthurt or disenchantment.

 

 

Where is your data then? What do you think that the RF is the Soviet Union and Putin is a dictator? The picture drawn by western media has not much to do with reality and i think i have provied enough sources for this in the Ukraine thread and not "just one friend".

Oh and please Freedomhouse as a source? They paint themselves as an independent "watchdog" but when you look at who pays them money, (supporters) you get the picture. America in the top countries with press freedom is a joke. 90% of the media in US is owned by 5 big conglomerates and all of them sit in the COuncil of Foreign relations, it takes second to find that information because it´s not even a secret.

Yes i agree that it is a stupid law, i think i even said that, the background however has some interesting points with real damage done. Stupid laws get made all the time, including everywhere in the world, welcome to reality. As for shrinking civil rights, thats something that is worrisome in a lot of places, including the EU and especially the US.

"Add to that your initial silly generalization, and idea of fact, i'd suggest major butthurt or disenchantment." I suggest a pretty bad case of arrogance here. ;)

 

But whatever, as i said before this seems to go nowhere, i disagree with you. End of story.


Edited by cirdanx, 25 April 2015 - 01:27 AM.


#58
Ineth

Ineth

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 643 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

A decent litmus test is to look up which nations outlaw questioning aspects of the 'Holocaust'.

 

How convenient, since it's pretty much the only choice of "litmus test" that will allow you to defend your radical anti-Western bias.

 

I know this is probably futile in an online discussion like this, but let me try and appeal to your rationality.

 

Why should the freedom of speech regarding a very particular historical issue, which different societies and governments stand in very different relations to due to historical circumstances, be considered the most fair and useful universal "litmus test"?

 

When something has a totally different historical importance and societal meaning to different groups, it should be plainly obvious to any fair-minded person, that it's not sensible to blindly compare the rules those different groups have built around that issue out of context and take them as an indicator for rules they would build around totally different issues.

 

Here's a suggestion for an actually fair litmus test for free speech across different countries:

 

Can a person with no wealth, power or influence publicly disparage the government (or even the head of state him or her-self), even in a crude and foul way, and not have to fear persecution?

 

Unlike yours, this litmus test is fair because the issues at the heart of it apply to every country equally. All countries have governments that would prefer to be glorified rather than disparaged, because the latter could threaten their continued stay in power.

 

Of course, you'll hate it because when applied to every country equally, it won't exactly confirm your anti-Western and pro-ruthless-semidictatorships biases. But deep down, the rational part of you will know that brushing it aside won't change the truth.

 

PS: Which is not to say that most Western liberal democracies would rank 10/10 on that scale. Not even close. But relatively, they'd rank the highest.


Edited by Ineth, 25 April 2015 - 04:41 AM.


#59
Ineth

Ineth

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 643 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

people will still look at memes and make them, just like people in the UK will still make and look at all the banned porn there (which is even more of a ridiculous law than this) ;)

 

Yeah, the UK is probably the worst problem child when it come to free speech in Western liberal democracies.

 

The downwards slope that country is on in this regard is pretty sad, especially considering that it's the country where, once upon a time, civil rights were first acknowledged.



#60
Valsuelm

Valsuelm

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 421 posts
  • Location:New York, USA
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

 

A decent litmus test is to look up which nations outlaw questioning aspects of the 'Holocaust'.

 

How convenient, since it's pretty much the only choice of "litmus test" that will allow you to defend your radical anti-Western bias.

 

I know this is probably futile in an online discussion like this, but let me try and appeal to your rationality.

 

Why should the freedom of speech regarding a very particular historical issue, which different societies and governments stand in very different relations to due to historical circumstances, be considered the most fair and useful universal "litmus test"?

 

When something has a totally different historical importance and societal meaning to different groups, it should be plainly obvious to any fair-minded person, that it's not sensible to blindly compare the rules those different groups have built around that issue out of context and take them as an indicator for rules they would build around totally different issues.

 

Here's a suggestion for an actually fair litmus test for free speech across different countries:

 

Can a person with no wealth, power or influence publicly disparage the government (or even the head of state him or her-self), even in a crude and foul way, and not have to fear persecution?

 

Unlike yours, this litmus test is fair because the issues at the heart of it apply to every country equally. All countries have governments that would prefer to be glorified rather than disparaged, because the latter could threaten their continued stay in power.

 

Of course, you'll hate it because when applied to every country equally, it won't exactly confirm your anti-Western and pro-ruthless-semidictatorships biases. But deep down, the rational part of you will know that brushing it aside won't change the truth.

 

PS: Which is not to say that most Western liberal democracies would rank 10/10 on that scale. Not even close. But relatively, they'd rank the highest.

 

 

Like Tort has recently, you make assumptions based on your misinterpretation of the world and stereotypes you imagine. I have no 'radical anti-western bias' to point out one major mistake you're making. I'm not going to waste my time getting into the rest of it other than to stress the adjective I used: 'decent'. For plainly you ignored it.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Memes, Russia

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users