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First, the Accuracy will increase at roughly the same rate for both builds, meaning that the +12 will be less and less relevant.

I want to address this point - which is not true.

 

You have only 100 points of a dice roll and while accuracy can be stacked from many sources 12 points is 12 points. They will start to lose their worth only if you are heavily outclassing enemy deflection or outclassed yourself.

 

The attack roll is a flat number so a bonus to accuracy will be always welcomed until you have around +90-100 other enemy deflection.

Edited by Zoolimar

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Yes one handed is good if you using a weapon that stuns on crit. I had pallegina frequently land stuns on those giant golem bosses at end of game didn't even use her sworn enemy paladin buff. And if you don't crit with one handed weapon its usually guaranteed you'll at least hit or graze and slowly kills whatever high deflection mob your attacking.

Edited by Failion

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In an ideal scenario, it would be best to just stack Accuracy to the moon and forget about Graze-to-Hit (or Hit-to-Crit, for that matter). Practically speaking, there are only so many sources of Accuracy to be stacked, so GtH is a way to juice more damage out of the same amount of Accuracy. There are also a number of afflictions which penalize Accuracy, some very heavily, allowing GtH to shine even more in situations where those afflictions are applied.

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Exoduss, on 14 Apr 2015 - 11:11 AM, said: 

 

also secret about hardmode with 6 man party is :  its a faceroll most of the fights you will Auto Attack mobs while lighting your spliff

 

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First, the Accuracy will increase at roughly the same rate for both builds, meaning that the +12 will be less and less relevant.

I want to address this point - which is not true.

 

You have only 100 points of a dice roll and while accuracy can be stacked from many sources 12 points is 12 points. They will start to lose their worth only if you are heavily outclassing enemy deflection or outclassed yourself.

 

The attack roll is a flat number so a bonus to accuracy will be always welcomed until you have around +90-100 other enemy deflection.

 

Yes, but the smaller that gap becomes, the less grazes and misses you will get. The less grazes and misses you already get, the less important additional Accuracy will be.

 

A bonus to Accuracy will always be welcome, and +12 is quite a boost, but if you are getting much bigger bonuses form elsewhere, that anyone could get, not just the duelist, the less relevant that +12 will become.

 

Yes one handed is good if you using a weapon that stuns on crit. I had pallegina frequently land stuns on those giant golem bosses at end of game didn't even use her sworn enemy paladin buff. And if you don't crit with one handed weapon its usually guaranteed you'll at least hit or graze and slowly kills whatever high deflection mob your attacking.

This is probably the best way to capitalize on a duelist build, but then again.. how many of those weapons are there, and do they just happen to conform with your choice of Weapon Focus?

 

As a Paladin Duelist running around with a Rapier, I haven't even been able to find a rapier that isn't rubbish compared to a regular rapier than I enchant myself.

 

And that still does absolutely nothing for the One-Handed Style Talent. A Graze that gets converted into a Hit will never become a Crit, even if you get manage to hit that miniscule less-than-30%-of-30%-hole.

 

I think everyone is fine with the +12 for being a duelist, although it could stand to scale a bit (like suggested), the thing that really needs a helping hand is the useless Talent.

Edited by Luckmann

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Can we stop with trying to determine what's more realistic? This game has swords and shotguns, not to mention fireballs and dragons. It doesn't matter what some peasant in the 15th would have wielded.

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Anybody ever watch the old movie, the duellists? Ridley Scott, Harvey kietel...duels. That'll teach you all you need to know about sword fighting. Really though, I hope they do change up single weapon. Maybe a modal toggle between add deflection/increased attack speed and crit chance for the talent.

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Can we stop with trying to determine what's more realistic? This game has swords and shotguns, not to mention fireballs and dragons. It doesn't matter what some peasant in the 15th would have wielded.

 

The sane voice in the insane world .. will not be heard ;) Some people just cant give up their preconceived notions how things ought to be and if they are not it makes them uncomfortable.

Edited by knownastherat

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Aaaand OHS works with a shield (but not a Bash shield, which apparently counts as an offhand weapon). Also stacks with W&S style. Two styles at the same time, man.

 

This talent is almost criminal. About time to start calling for nerfs, actually.

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Exoduss, on 14 Apr 2015 - 11:11 AM, said: 

 

also secret about hardmode with 6 man party is :  its a faceroll most of the fights you will Auto Attack mobs while lighting your spliff

 

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Aaaand OHS works with a shield (but not a Bash shield, which apparently counts as an offhand weapon). Also stacks with W&S style. Two styles at the same time, man.

 

This talent is almost criminal. About time to start calling for nerfs, actually.

 

Well it clearly shouldn't be stacking. I can see how the One-Handed Style Talent might be worth it for a heavy tank, with that terrible Accuracy of theirs.

 

Unfortunately does not help the intended duelists much, though.


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Aaaand OHS works with a shield (but not a Bash shield, which apparently counts as an offhand weapon). Also stacks with W&S style. Two styles at the same time, man.

 

This talent is almost criminal. About time to start calling for nerfs, actually.

Eh, if the talent was any more intriguing than converting grazes to hits, I'd agree, but as it is it just rounds the bell curve on your dps.

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Eh, if the talent was any more intriguing than converting grazes to hits, I'd agree, but as it is it just rounds the bell curve on your dps.

 

That is the point, yes. More reliable, predictable damage, and better performance when Accuracy is under duress.

 

Had I known OHS works with shields, I probably would have taken it for my main tank and used the excellent draining flail found in Eothas' Temple rather than use a dinky hatchet the entire game. More Graze conversions in that case would mean more damage, and because more damage, more drain. Certainly would have been better in spell damage situations, where a little extra Deflection isn't as useful.

 

And what's the deal with foisting the duelist (fencer?) archetype onto either using a single 1H weapon, or the OHS talent. A classical RPG duelist archetype is at least as much about defense as offense, and defense is not what 1H was designed for in PoE. Players trying to fulfill their duelist fantasy would better spend their energy trying to stack Deflection (really, really, really stack it) on a Rogue, for the Riposte talent, as others have mentioned. Even in that case, the Riposte talent is offensive in nature, while all the defensive work is still being done by Deflection.

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Exoduss, on 14 Apr 2015 - 11:11 AM, said: 

 

also secret about hardmode with 6 man party is :  its a faceroll most of the fights you will Auto Attack mobs while lighting your spliff

 

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Can we stop with trying to determine what's more realistic? This game has swords and shotguns, not to mention fireballs and dragons. It doesn't matter what some peasant in the 15th would have wielded.

You mix up real world realism with fantasy world consistency.

While dragons are not "realistic", the way you diel with them in a fantasy setting should be consistent within the frames defined of this setting.

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The 1 handed talent is meh. Not sure why it just doesn't even add more accuracy to 1Handed use. Say another +5 to +8. Or a +10 to Crit chance. Or even faster recovery time.

 

Grazes to hits 30% of the time seems pointless. As the 1handed character will most likely be your most accuracte character anyways whats the point in a talent firing only when grazes happen and then only 30% of the time.

 

While the 2H and 2W talent activates 100% of the time. That alone just doesn't make sense. Whatever the 1H talent is it should be activate 100% of the time.

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Um. No. Many soldiers and Knights or duelists trained and fought with a longsword only. It is a middle ground in balance, speed, and effectiveness. It also opens up your other hand for disarms and other physical maneuvers and you're not hauling a cumbersome shield to slow you down. Your average peasant or sellsword will fare better with a shield to cover his undisciplined onslaught of course.

 

... using a shield (especially a buckler) is extremely technical, and opens up all kinds of options in combat.

 

This is setting aside the ridiculous suggestion that mercenaries or militiamen would have been unskilled, when in various times and places they were probably the best soldiers in Europe.

 

Longsword is a two-handed weapon.

 

It's typically used as a two-handed weapon, but it's possible to use it one-handed, and the Italian school of longsword had specific techniques for such.

 

Mind, these are for specific situations, and the preference would always have been to use two-handed. Two-handed use is still the ultimate purpose of the longsword, and the word "long" in its name refers at least partially to the length of the hilt.

 

Duels are another matter entirely, as rather than being about what is effective they're about what is accepted. There were plenty of rapier duels later in time, but what did the officers carry into battles? Sabers.

 

If we go by the training manuals, rapiers were indeed used on the battlefield against armored foes. Techniques existed for use on horseback, as well as for dealing with firearms at close range. It wouldn't have been the go-to weapon for most professional soldiers, but alongside the lance, pike, longsword, and gun, rapier/sidesword and buckler would have made up a significant piece of their arsenal.

 

You are thinking of a period about 200-300 years later, when the rapier had been supplanted by thinner, lighter foils and epees. Of the foil/epee/saber trifecta, only the saber is suitable for battlefield combat (and you can get away with using a saber poorly, unlike the others).

 

Can we stop with trying to determine what's more realistic? This game has swords and shotguns, not to mention fireballs and dragons. It doesn't matter what some peasant in the 15th would have wielded.

 

The most technologically advanced firearm in PoE is the blunderbuss, which was used as early as the 17th century.

 

The era of the early gun is also the era of full, articulated plate .

Edited by gkathellar

If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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Well it clearly shouldn't be stacking.

 

Why is that at all clear? The talent says it works when using a single one-handed weapon. It says nothing about ONLY using a single one-handed weapon. Why shouldn't it work with a shield? Because there's a sword&board talent? That's not a good enough reason.

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Well it clearly shouldn't be stacking.

 

Why is that at all clear? The talent says it works when using a single one-handed weapon. It says nothing about ONLY using a single one-handed weapon. Why shouldn't it work with a shield? Because there's a sword&board talent? That's not a good enough reason.

Also, it can't be overpowered on a Tank because (with a very few exceptions, Barbarians, Rogues, and Ciphers notwithstanding) their job isn't to do damage.

 

And you're using two talents to have both. 

Edited by Infares

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Eh.. "Good enough"? Well.. I mean, it's possible. It really comes down to what is "enough". With a group, you can certainly complete the game, no doubt.

 

But does dual-wielding beat it by a landslide? Yes. The +12 Accuracy that you gain for duelist fighting isn't nearly enough to compensate, and the One-Weapon Style Talent is utter rubbish - it only happens when something that will be relatively rare to you happens, and the higher your Accuracy gets (and as a duelist, you will want to stack Accuracy, obviously) the less useful it gets.

 

Even if we assume an equal Deflection and Accuracy, Grazes only happens on a roll of 16-50, which is to say 34%. The higher your Accuracy gets over the enemy Deflection (and again you are all about the Accuracy, and have an extra +12 Accuracy to boot) the less Grazes you are going to get. And then, when you DO get a Graze, there's only a 30% chance that it will become a hit (upping the damage from 50% to 100% - that is, to say, a 100% increase to what you should've gotten).

 

Overall, that is pretty damn terrible, when compared to Dual-Wielding and Two-Handed Weapons. No-one has run the math against using a Shield, because obviously, that is all about the defences and will always come up as the shortest.

 

Changing the talent to change hits to crits instead of grazes to hits would be a huge improvement. I agree that giving the "I have high Accuracy" weapon style a talent that mitigates the effects of having low Accuracy is really stupid.

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Eh.. "Good enough"? Well.. I mean, it's possible. It really comes down to what is "enough". With a group, you can certainly complete the game, no doubt.

 

But does dual-wielding beat it by a landslide? Yes. The +12 Accuracy that you gain for duelist fighting isn't nearly enough to compensate, and the One-Weapon Style Talent is utter rubbish - it only happens when something that will be relatively rare to you happens, and the higher your Accuracy gets (and as a duelist, you will want to stack Accuracy, obviously) the less useful it gets.

 

Even if we assume an equal Deflection and Accuracy, Grazes only happens on a roll of 16-50, which is to say 34%. The higher your Accuracy gets over the enemy Deflection (and again you are all about the Accuracy, and have an extra +12 Accuracy to boot) the less Grazes you are going to get. And then, when you DO get a Graze, there's only a 30% chance that it will become a hit (upping the damage from 50% to 100% - that is, to say, a 100% increase to what you should've gotten).

 

Overall, that is pretty damn terrible, when compared to Dual-Wielding and Two-Handed Weapons. No-one has run the math against using a Shield, because obviously, that is all about the defences and will always come up as the shortest.

 

Changing the talent to change hits to crits instead of grazes to hits would be a huge improvement. I agree that giving the "I have high Accuracy" weapon style a talent that mitigates the effects of having low Accuracy is really stupid.

 

 

I wouldn't mind it doing both; 20% Graze-to-Hit and 20% Hit-to-Crit, while having in mind that an attack that's been converted once will not be converted again (so a Graze can't become a Crit). I'm not sure how that would play out, but at least I'd consider it.

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I wouldn't mind it doing both; 20% Graze-to-Hit and 20% Hit-to-Crit, while having in mind that an attack that's been converted once will not be converted again (so a Graze can't become a Crit). I'm not sure how that would play out, but at least I'd consider it.

 

Well it should be easy, you only take into account the original strike.

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I wouldn't mind it doing both; 20% Graze-to-Hit and 20% Hit-to-Crit

hope the devs are listening

 

I hope so too, Duncan. They need a good laugh after a stressful period of development.


Exoduss, on 14 Apr 2015 - 11:11 AM, said: 

 

also secret about hardmode with 6 man party is :  its a faceroll most of the fights you will Auto Attack mobs while lighting your spliff

 

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They need to make the talent better in order to justify going one handed, maybe giving better crit chance instead?

 

Using 1 weapon already gives you a bonus without even needing a talent; higher accuracy. Thus a better crit chance.

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I wouldn't mind it doing both; 20% Graze-to-Hit and 20% Hit-to-Crit, while having in mind that an attack that's been converted once will not be converted again (so a Graze can't become a Crit). I'm not sure how that would play out, but at least I'd consider it.

 

Well it should be easy, you only take into account the original strike.

 

 

Oh, sorry, I meant how the changes would work out, balance-wise. 20% Hit-to-Crit is a lot, so there's no doubt it could use some serious tweaking. I'd still prefer another solution, though, but whatever.

 

The way the math would play out is easy, like you say, it only takes the original strike into account, and if applicable, makes a roll to change the result.

 

 

They need to make the talent better in order to justify going one handed, maybe giving better crit chance instead?

Using 1 weapon already gives you a bonus without even needing a talent; higher accuracy. Thus a better crit chance.

 

Yes, and having the Talent capitalize on that fact would be a good thing. Currently, the Talent works against how you'd play a duelist. It affects something that shouldn't be happening to you very often at all. It's counter-intuitive and rubbish.

Edited by Luckmann

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While the talent is meh, Battleaxes are good fit for one-handed fighting style. They get increased critical damage, and with the bonus to accuracy you are likely to get more criticals.

Rapiers and Spears are also very good, because they add +5 Accuracy, helping you to really push Accuracy.

 

Battle Axes (+0.5% Crit.Dmg), Maces (Pen 3) and Flails (30% Graze-to-Hit) are all potentially really good, but they don't really feel very... duelist-y, I think.

 

Until they fix the One-Handed Style Talent working with shields, Flails are really good for sword-and-board Fighters, I think. They're going to have pretty low Accuracy, so they're going to Graze a lot, and converting 60% of those is quite powerful.


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