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Okay, here's where I'll point our that if you want to have a beef with me, feel free. I'll write as I see fit within the guidelines of this joint and you can be as happy or upset witj y word usage as you see fit. That, my dreamy friend, will be your problem. More detailed commentary will wait until I get home. BTW: I promise I won't have enduring animosity over your over-reaction.


bother?

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BTW: I promise I won't have enduring animosity over your over-reaction.

My over reaction. You started this with the "killing people in their sleep" strawman.

 

I've made my point. Feel free to reply, but I believe it will be better if I leave this thread.

 

And I was not angry.

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Yeah, but I both identified I was just goofing around in that very thread right before I conceded that there was a logical basis for your position. I owned that you had a point straight away and have also done so since. I think these grey are fun to discuss. Really, in all seriousness at this point, don't ditcj the conversation on my account. I'll quit needling you. You've clearly been making more serious and we'll considered arguments than me anyway.


bother?

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Ladies please, lets just all agree that I'm the sexiest one here, okay?


"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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Okay, now that I have a little time to write out a post, I guess I'd better be serious and give my thoughts on it.  I'm going to give shorthand arguments and I'll probably leave them to stand or not as arguments, although I might continue to discuss things.  So, as far as the argument in general, I'll yield the last word to someone else, maybe Dream or someone.

 

First of all, I don't think it's good to chain Maerwald to Caed Nua.  On it's face, it seems harsh and it is clearly more or less presented as being harsh.  Moreover, it seems that creating an argument that denying a soul the opportunity to return to the wheel is not good.  However, the idea is not settled in the lore and the area is grey enough that an argument can be made either way.  For this reason, I think a player could reasonably justify the PC's actions in chaining Maerwald.

​This boils down to two competing elements we have as players:  who decides the PC's motives?  Clearly, some motives are designated by the design team.  The player can disagree with them, but the player is confined by the presentation.  On the other hand, the player, being personally invested, 'knows' the PC in ways the developers cannot.  If I have my PC explore an area and kill every red lined creature or npc, is he a heartless murderer looking for blood?  Is he an explorer beset by beast and bandit?  Is he simply trying to make the area safe for other travelers?  Again, the game doesn't seem to have a problem with killing off red lined beasts out off the beaten path, but one could definitely argue that by going out of his way to find such beasts the PC is intruding on the beasts' territory and has no right to hunt them down to kill them.

 

So, if you truly believe that you are committing no atrocity by chaining Maerwald, I think you've got a point.  I still don't think it is ultimately just or warranted.  I also look at it as a dangerous precedent in that it pave the way for other such equivalencies at other branches throughout the life of the PC.  Nevertheless, while I was joking around about it, I don't have now and did not then have animosity.   However, I do think of the overall basis of the argument, whether it stands or not, as being nihilistic.  Not "you're a nihilistic terrorist!" sort of assertion.  No, just inasmuch as the idea that preventing a soul from returning to the wheel seems nihilistic on its face to me.  That's not an accusation but merely a straightforward clarification of where I stand.


bother?

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You should of course pick whatever choice feels right to you / for your character.

 

That said however... your argument presents the idea of killing people as a if it was a fair comparison to the actions taken with his soul (chaining it or not). I strongly disagree. Yes you killed him so there is that vague similarity, but that was self defense and you were given no choice in the matter (and not really what this was about). I fail to see how infusing his soul into the land is comparable to killing people in their sleep for money really.

 

I suspect you read my previous post as if chaining him would be a gift, a big blessing where he will not have to live (and thus suffer!) any more. That would seem to go better in hand with your reply (a humorous gibe about "sparing" people of their lives), but that would be a slight misinterpretation, an exaggeration to be exact: I merely meant that it is probably not evil, but simply a neutral choice (despite the profound significance) since which ever you choose there are both good and bad prospects (shrouded in a great deal of uncertainty on multiple levels).

 

My post focuses on the positive for sure, but then again my post is a counterpoint to the other (mostly negative) voices in this thread; is intended to be read in that context, and as such aims for the more neutral view. As for having fun I posted because I enjoy philosophical discussions such as those made in this tread. :)

 

You are welcome to join us and share whatever opinion you have, and if you enjoy them too I would love to hear your take on why it doesn't feel right. I can of course imagine multiple possible reasons myself, but then again talking to myself would be a lot less interesting than hearing someone else's opinion. ;)

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Later on, deep down in the paths you'll find a unique sabre.

Edited by Ben No.3

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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Now, I don't think the ideal option is represented here... What we have is:

-Bind his soul, let him live with his demons forever

-Release his soul, leaving him at the risk of yet another awakening, now including his awful life as maerwald, resulting in a maximum of three poor souls trapped in one body (four with the "new" guy)

-siphon knowledge, which we have no idea what it does (to maerwald)

 

I personally think the best option here would be absolute death, no return to the wheel. Maerwald is a man broken by terrible crimes he never committed, destroyed by memory. And since we see several awakings throughout the game, it is not unlikely that maerwald will awaken once again. Or maybe someone purposely will try to awaken him? Kind of like how you do in stalwart... What if in some distant future, awaking becomes a trend? Sort of like a party drug.... It is actually not all to unlikely when you think about it.

 

For someone with such terrible memories that may resurface at any given point, I think absolute death, the stopping of existence is the best option. Because while this means ultimate peace, everything else is just creating a time bomb (imo). I see it kind of like a form of euthanasia in this case, and I am a heavy supporter of that.

Edited by Ben No.3
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Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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Huh, you know I've never really thought about it that carefully. I had heard mixed things when I first played about whether the secret was available without siphoning his knowledge, and given how minor the bonuses to prestige and security were in the long run I always went with that. Now I know that it is available regardless I really ought to choose a more in character reason. In fact the main reason I hadn't before is because of the ambiguity about what was the kindest option for him. Maerwald's spirit had done some pretty nasty things in the past, but it's clear that Maerwald himself regrets them and I don't see any reason to punish him.

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[...] Maerwald's spirit had done some pretty nasty things in the past, but it's clear that Maerwald himself regrets them and I don't see any reason to punish him.

But in this case I don't see ultimate death as a punishment... He just died anyway, so he will not witness it, and if he lives he would have to continue living with his demons forever, I'm honestly thinking absolute death is the "actually kind" option.

 

Kinda disappointed it wasn't included ;)

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Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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Oh I totally agree, ultimate death could be a merciful option here. It's partly a question of whether his soul is prone to becoming awakened. If it can go on an have a normal life that's fine, but if he's likely to remember his past again then ultimate death is probably preferable.

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Only issue I have with the merciful death scenario is he would have to choose it, otherwise you run into some minor moral dilemmas, namely murder :)

I'm personally supportive of euthanasia myself, but the person has to make the decision themselves otherwise it becomes slightly morally suspect.


"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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Only issue I have with the merciful death scenario is he would have to choose it, otherwise you run into some minor moral dilemmas, namely murder :)

I'm personally supportive of euthanasia myself, but the person has to make the decision themselves otherwise it becomes slightly morally suspect.

Is not letting someone reincarnate the same as killing someone though?


Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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Only issue I have with the merciful death scenario is he would have to choose it, otherwise you run into some minor moral dilemmas, namely murder :)

I'm personally supportive of euthanasia myself, but the person has to make the decision themselves otherwise it becomes slightly morally suspect.

 

One of the nice things about Pillars, particularly Act I, is that some of the quests result in genuinely difficult moral choices. I always struggle about what to tell Calisca's sister (I forget her name) about the potion, or whether or not to side with Kolsc or Raedric.

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I'm finally playing PoE (now that it's stable/bug free enough :)) ... I've "struggled" with this choice as well. I'm playing a Pale Elf Paladin (Kind Wayfarers)... and trying to RP him along the way. I think I'm going to settle on option 3. Reasons as follows.

 

option 1) although not known for sure seems a bit too much like a punishment for my guy, "chains" and all...

option 2) this one is close, but I feel the trauma of Maerwald could carry on to the next soul and continue the torturous cycle of this "tainted" soul.

option 3) I believe this ends the cycle ... I look at it as a selfless act. Hopefully putting this soul to rest and at best absorbing the pain of the soul into mine to deal with.

 

I know all options could be bad/good depending on how you look at it. Option 2 was close, but ultimately I think it's 3 for my guy. Plus... I get get item ;) , although that's a secondary concern for my play through. 


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