Too much whining about gameplay?

[NikoBolas]

So, if you buy a book and don't like how the plot develops or how it is narrated to you, do you feel justified to go to the publisher or author website and make comments like "I didn't like this and that, will you change that in the second edition to satisfy my tastes"?

 

 

This issue is clouded by many factors. If I and 77,000 other people paid a team of writers to write a book and we weren't happy with it, I think we'd be justified telling them what we didn't like about it. That's the main problem with developing anything to appeal to 77,000 people: there are a lot of different expectations. In the regular industry what people want and what is made is determined mostly behind the scenes. Game developers have to convince the people with money that their game is worth the investment and investors keep them on a short leash to ensure their money isn't being wasted. This process can lead to some poor and even backwards game design as you must have milestones and demos and screenshots at various stages of development when they are not even fully developed yet. Furthermore as game development gets longer and more expensive it becomes harder to develop anything "cutting edge" as by the time you finish designing, developing, testing, iterating, bug-fixing technology has leaped ahead making your game look sub-par.

 

That's why I like Obsidian. Because what they are really really good at is writing. Even if the technology gets dated or the systems aren't designed to be easily absorbed/understood, the writing and the story and the world makes sense and draws you in. That's why I think they didn't bother with making you spend extra time learning how to enchant weapons and armor (or gating where you can) or limiting how much stuff you can pick up (and where you can sell it). Because that isn't what they want you to remember about the game or really experience while playing it. And if that part of the game breaks the immersion, its worth breaking it to spare the hundreds and thousands of hours people would have spent playing their game moving items around, selling things at various merchants to get the best prices, and reading guides about how to it all optimally. Instead there are hand-drawn little choose-your-own adventures, gray questlines where there is no obvious good guy to back or evil guy to vanquish, and a rich world built upon themes most games wouldn't consider like reincarnation, soul science, and a colonial instead of medieval setting.

 

At the end of the day I'm confident Obsidian is working hard to get their vision of combat, experience, spells, encounter design, AI, and such refined. And that stuff may be slightly lacking (I emphasize slightly because frankly it seems at least as good as other major companies' efforts, if not better). But I backed this project because I knew this was the group that would get all the other stuff right. And I look forward to playing PoE 2, 3, and more

 

/PoE fanboy

[Gromnir]

too often a complaint becomes a whine when you disagree with what the poster wants.

 

*shrug*

 

that too is mighty subjective.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

^ Agreed. I suppose you can spot trends though.

[Luckmann]

 

• "Group stealth doesn't allow me to backstab" (a clear signal they haven't read the manual and don't know that sneak attack has nothing to do with being stealthy)

 

Or that you haven't read up on the Rogue-specific talents very diligently, because there is in fact one called "Backstab", and it does in fact suck as a result of the party stealth mechanic.

 

 

Thank you.

 

I went into the topic only to point that out, but decided to check if it's been discussed yet. Three pages before anyone did. Goddammit people.

 

Backstab and Sneak Attacks are not the same thing, and if you want to attack from Stealth, yeah, the Party Stealth/No Combat Stealth thing completely kills that, rogue or no rogue.

 

Yes, there's a lot of whining about gameplay, but a lot of it is warranted. It is not because PoE is a bad game, but because - go figure - it's got some issues that can be addressed. If it was just a bad game, no-one would care about improving it, and just move on with their lives.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Luckmann

[DIIscIIple]

It just seems like there are a large percentage of posts that say that they don't like the game at all.  We know that this isn't a representative sample because any poll that people run confirms that people are loving the game.  And sales.  And critic ratings.

 

I read one guy who said that he didn't like the game because

 

HE HAD TO SPAM THE SPACE BAR IN COMBAT.  THAT IS INSANE.  THAT IS AN INSANE REASON TO DISLIKE A REAL TIME PAUSE SYSTEM.

 

The guy was probably just inexperienced at this type of game and I should ignore him.  I guess i haven't joined too many internet bulletin boards before; I joined this one because I like the game so much and it's frustrating to see so much negativity.  Maybe that's just internet bulletin boards.

Edited April 8, 2015 by DIIscIIple

[pedroantonio]

 

• "Group stealth doesn't allow me to backstab" (a clear signal they haven't read the manual and don't know that sneak attack has nothing to do with being stealthy)

 

Or that you haven't read up on the Rogue-specific talents very diligently, because there is in fact one called "Backstab", and it does in fact suck as a result of the party stealth mechanic.

 

I stand corrected. I was thinking about sneak attack when I wrote that, thanks.

 

 

It just seems like there are a large percentage of posts that say that they don't like the game at all.  We know that this isn't a representative sample because any poll that people run confirms that people are loving the game.  And sales.  And critic ratings.

 

I read one guy who said that he didn't like the game because

 

HE HAD TO SPAM THE SPACE BAR IN COMBAT.  THAT IS INSANE.  THAT IS AN INSANE REASON TO DISLIKE A REAL TIME PAUSE SYSTEM.

 

The guy was probably just inexperienced at this type of game and I should ignore him.  I guess i haven't joined too many internet bulletin boards before; I joined this one because I like the game so much and it's frustrating to see so much negativity.  Maybe that's just internet bulletin boards.

I remember reading that one as well. Exactly the kind of post that motivated me to start this thread.

[Ineth]

I read one guy who said that he didn't like the game because

 

HE HAD TO SPAM THE SPACE BAR IN COMBAT.  THAT IS INSANE.  THAT IS AN INSANE REASON TO DISLIKE A REAL TIME PAUSE SYSTEM.

 

It's also untrue that he has to do that. The "Party Member Finishes Ability" auto-pause option works wonders.

 

If people prefer to play without auto-pause, that's their choice, but they shouldn't complain about the space bar then...

[Atheosis]

Game forums are ruled by negativity.  It is known.  Even with great games like PoE there will always be the malcontents who just have to come to the forums and rant about every real and perceived flaw in the game.  I do see some of their points and think xp gain and some monster design is unbalanced (too easy), but the sheer negativity over such a great game is silly.  Not surprising though.  Every time I go to a game forum it looks like this.

[Matt516]

Where subjective design decisions like attributes, engagement, etc are concerned, I can sort of see your point. Sort of.

When you're talking about players leveling up to 12 literally halfway through the game because the XP system is off somewhere, thus trivializing the rest of the content, though? That's a 100% legitimate complaint. As are concerns about game balance taking meaningful choices away from the player (as in the case of one weapon that dominates all others in its category *cough* Estoc *cough*), or skills/talents that simply don't work, or incredibly dominant strategies (as in, "do this exact thing every fight and you'll win").

I can sympathise with you, OP, on being tired of seeing complaints. I'm tired of it myself. But the solution is not to ask people to stop making them - this forum is for feedback. Feedback helps Obsidian make the game better. The solution is to just send less time on the forum and enjoy the game instead. Which I need to do - I'm very prone to "forum-itis". I'd recommend you do the same.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Matt516

[Zorfab]

Game forums are ruled by negativity.  It is known.  Even with great games like PoE there will always be the malcontents who just have to come to the forums and rant about every real and perceived flaw in the game.  I do see some of their points and think xp gain and some monster design is unbalanced (too easy), but the sheer negativity over such a great game is silly.  Not surprising though.  Every time I go to a game forum it looks like this.

There are two reasons for this:

 

1) Happy people don´t come to forums that often and may not even thought about the game in analytical way, just played and enjoyed it. There is a good chance that they will never comment on the game beyond slapping a number in Metacritic or Steam for a recommendation. They have no motivation to participate in the discussion and thus they never will.

2) Positive feedback is often of low value. "Thanks for a great game" is almost as bad as "This game sucks rotten eggs!". A lot nicer, but lacking anything constructive nonetheless.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Zorfab

[gkathellar]

But what are we going to whine about, if not gameplay?

 

Happy people don´t come to forums that often

 

Hey, I resent that.

 

*sobs quietly to self*

[Zorfab]

I think you are not happy enough. Back to the game with you.

[LadyCrimson]

Does somebody else feel a bit infuriated by the amount of people (specially people with less than 20 posts or so) who makes threads and posts just to complain about their subjective dislike of game systems?

The great thing about the internet is I can turn it off or find another post that is more relevant to my personal interests.

 

So no, not really.

[Atheosis]

Where subjective design decisions like attributes, engagement, etc are concerned, I can sort of see your point. Sort of.

 

 

When you're talking about players leveling up to 12 literally halfway through the game because the XP system is off somewhere, thus trivializing the rest of the content, though? That's a 100% legitimate complaint. As are concerns about game balance taking meaningful choices away from the player (as in the case of one weapon that dominates all others in its category *cough* Estoc *cough*), or skills/talents that simply don't work, or incredibly dominant strategies (as in, "do this exact thing every fight and you'll win").

 

I can sympathise with you, OP, on being tired of seeing complaints. I'm tired of it myself. But the solution is not to ask people to stop making them - this forum is for feedback. Feedback helps Obsidian make the game better. The solution is to just send less time on the forum and enjoy the game instead. Which I need to do - I'm very prone to "forum-itis". I'd recommend you do the same.

 

I don't see the problem with estocs.  I actually think great swords are better overall since two damage weapons tend to be better than DR reduction more often than not.

[Atheosis]

 

Game forums are ruled by negativity.  It is known.  Even with great games like PoE there will always be the malcontents who just have to come to the forums and rant about every real and perceived flaw in the game.  I do see some of their points and think xp gain and some monster design is unbalanced (too easy), but the sheer negativity over such a great game is silly.  Not surprising though.  Every time I go to a game forum it looks like this.

There are two reasons for this:

 

1) Happy people don´t come to forums that often and may not even thought about the game in analytical way, just played and enjoyed it. There is a good chance that they will never comment on the game beyond slapping a number in Metacritic or Steam for a recommendation. They have no motivation to participate in the discussion and thus they never will.

2) Positive feedback is often of low value. "Thanks for a great game" is almost as bad as "This game sucks rotten eggs!". A lot nicer, but lacking anything constructive nonetheless.

 

 

100% true, and I think it's worse with really good games with some clear flaws, because people are so invested in the game fulfilling their ideas of its "potential".  I think that's what we are seeing with PoE.  I was actually on the other side of it with Elite:Dangerous recently, though that game really is all unfulfilled potential while PoE just has balance issues mostly.

[Luckmann]

 

Where subjective design decisions like attributes, engagement, etc are concerned, I can sort of see your point. Sort of.

 

 

When you're talking about players leveling up to 12 literally halfway through the game because the XP system is off somewhere, thus trivializing the rest of the content, though? That's a 100% legitimate complaint. As are concerns about game balance taking meaningful choices away from the player (as in the case of one weapon that dominates all others in its category *cough* Estoc *cough*), or skills/talents that simply don't work, or incredibly dominant strategies (as in, "do this exact thing every fight and you'll win").

 

I can sympathise with you, OP, on being tired of seeing complaints. I'm tired of it myself. But the solution is not to ask people to stop making them - this forum is for feedback. Feedback helps Obsidian make the game better. The solution is to just send less time on the forum and enjoy the game instead. Which I need to do - I'm very prone to "forum-itis". I'd recommend you do the same.

 

I don't see the problem with estocs.  I actually think great swords are better overall since two damage weapons tend to be better than DR reduction more often than not.

 

 

That argument makes no sense. Great swords uses the best out of Slash/Piercing depending on the enemy's DR.

 

Estocs have a Penetration of 5, and thus ignore 5 DR.

 

This means that the difference between the Slashing DR and the Piercing DR of the enemy has to be greater than 5 in order for the Great Sword to be better than the Estoc, while the Estoc will always do 5 extra damage against anything that has 5 DR or more - which means practically everything.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Luckmann

[gkathellar]

 

Does somebody else feel a bit infuriated by the amount of people (specially people with less than 20 posts or so) who makes threads and posts just to complain about their subjective dislike of game systems?

The great thing about the internet is I can turn it off or find another post that is more relevant to my personal interests.

 

So no, not really.

 

 

But Lady Crimson, people are wrong on the internet!

 

what do we do what do we do

[Luckmann]

 

 

Does somebody else feel a bit infuriated by the amount of people (specially people with less than 20 posts or so) who makes threads and posts just to complain about their subjective dislike of game systems?

The great thing about the internet is I can turn it off or find another post that is more relevant to my personal interests.

 

So no, not really.

 

 

But Lady Crimson, people are wrong on the internet!

 

what do we do what do we do

 

 

 

This is me and my GF, all too often.

[Atheosis]

 

 

Where subjective design decisions like attributes, engagement, etc are concerned, I can sort of see your point. Sort of.

 

 

When you're talking about players leveling up to 12 literally halfway through the game because the XP system is off somewhere, thus trivializing the rest of the content, though? That's a 100% legitimate complaint. As are concerns about game balance taking meaningful choices away from the player (as in the case of one weapon that dominates all others in its category *cough* Estoc *cough*), or skills/talents that simply don't work, or incredibly dominant strategies (as in, "do this exact thing every fight and you'll win").

 

I can sympathise with you, OP, on being tired of seeing complaints. I'm tired of it myself. But the solution is not to ask people to stop making them - this forum is for feedback. Feedback helps Obsidian make the game better. The solution is to just send less time on the forum and enjoy the game instead. Which I need to do - I'm very prone to "forum-itis". I'd recommend you do the same.

 

I don't see the problem with estocs.  I actually think great swords are better overall since two damage weapons tend to be better than DR reduction more often than not.

 

 

That argument makes no sense. Great swords uses the best out of Slash/Piercing depending on the enemy's DR.

 

Estocs have a Penetration of 5, and thus ignore 5 DR.

 

This means that the difference between the Slashing DR and the Piercing DR of the enemy has to be greater than 5 in order for the Great Sword to be better than the Estoc, while the Estoc will always do 5 extra damage against anything that has 5 DR or more - which means practically everything.

 

 

There are a lot of enemies where the gap between those two DR values is greater than 5. 

[Volourn]

"Now, obviously people are free to dislike a game"

\

Your thread should have stopped right there. Making a thread crying about other people's opinions is plain stupid. People are free to like or dislike a game for ANY reason. if they make a post complaining about an issue and you disagree feel free to respond them which is also your right but starting a thread just to whine about other threads is pure poppy****.

 

 

Now, I'm gonna go start a thread about all the threads whining about other threads just so the cycle can continue.

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

Where subjective design decisions like attributes, engagement, etc are concerned, I can sort of see your point. Sort of.

 

 

When you're talking about players leveling up to 12 literally halfway through the game because the XP system is off somewhere, thus trivializing the rest of the content, though? That's a 100% legitimate complaint. As are concerns about game balance taking meaningful choices away from the player (as in the case of one weapon that dominates all others in its category *cough* Estoc *cough*), or skills/talents that simply don't work, or incredibly dominant strategies (as in, "do this exact thing every fight and you'll win").

 

I can sympathise with you, OP, on being tired of seeing complaints. I'm tired of it myself. But the solution is not to ask people to stop making them - this forum is for feedback. Feedback helps Obsidian make the game better. The solution is to just send less time on the forum and enjoy the game instead. Which I need to do - I'm very prone to "forum-itis". I'd recommend you do the same.

 

I don't see the problem with estocs.  I actually think great swords are better overall since two damage weapons tend to be better than DR reduction more often than not.

 

 

That argument makes no sense. Great swords uses the best out of Slash/Piercing depending on the enemy's DR.

 

Estocs have a Penetration of 5, and thus ignore 5 DR.

 

This means that the difference between the Slashing DR and the Piercing DR of the enemy has to be greater than 5 in order for the Great Sword to be better than the Estoc, while the Estoc will always do 5 extra damage against anything that has 5 DR or more - which means practically everything.

 

 

There are a lot of enemies where the gap between those two DR values is greater than 5. 

 

 

There are a fair number, but often, the gap is in favor of Piercing. I'm not convinced there are so many enemies with high piercing DR that it really justifies using a Greatsword (especially when WF: Adventurer also gets you Poleaxes for Crush/Slash, if you absolutely must switch damage types).

Edited April 8, 2015 by gkathellar

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

Where subjective design decisions like attributes, engagement, etc are concerned, I can sort of see your point. Sort of.

 

 

When you're talking about players leveling up to 12 literally halfway through the game because the XP system is off somewhere, thus trivializing the rest of the content, though? That's a 100% legitimate complaint. As are concerns about game balance taking meaningful choices away from the player (as in the case of one weapon that dominates all others in its category *cough* Estoc *cough*), or skills/talents that simply don't work, or incredibly dominant strategies (as in, "do this exact thing every fight and you'll win").

 

I can sympathise with you, OP, on being tired of seeing complaints. I'm tired of it myself. But the solution is not to ask people to stop making them - this forum is for feedback. Feedback helps Obsidian make the game better. The solution is to just send less time on the forum and enjoy the game instead. Which I need to do - I'm very prone to "forum-itis". I'd recommend you do the same.

 

I don't see the problem with estocs.  I actually think great swords are better overall since two damage weapons tend to be better than DR reduction more often than not.

 

 

That argument makes no sense. Great swords uses the best out of Slash/Piercing depending on the enemy's DR.

 

Estocs have a Penetration of 5, and thus ignore 5 DR.

 

This means that the difference between the Slashing DR and the Piercing DR of the enemy has to be greater than 5 in order for the Great Sword to be better than the Estoc, while the Estoc will always do 5 extra damage against anything that has 5 DR or more - which means practically everything.

 

 

There are a lot of enemies where the gap between those two DR values is greater than 5.

 

 

There may be, true. But there are definitely a lot more enemies of all types that have more than DR 5 but less than a 5 DR difference between Slashing and Piercing.

 

There are a fair number, but often, the gap is in favor of Piercing. I'm not convinced there are so many enemies with high piercing DR that it really justifies using a Greatsword (especially when WF: Adventurer also gets you Poleaxes for Crush/Slash, if you absolutely must switch damage types).

Carting around both a Great Sword (...why did they not call it Greatsword? And Warhammer..? sigh..) and a Pollaxe isn't actually a bad idea at all. I might actually do that at some point.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Luckmann

[Vadász]

I'm actually more irritated by people who complain the game lacks x mechanic from IE Games or that it's not sandboxy enough. This are the that guys are really missing the point.

[Volourn]

"complain the game lacks x mechanic from IE Games"
 

Considering the game was pimped on the basis of the IE that's a rather valid complaint.

[Atheosis]

 

There may be, true. But there are definitely a lot more enemies of all types that have more than DR 5 but less than a 5 DR difference between Slashing and Piercing.

 

 

Which basically means estocs are better sometimes and great swords are better sometimes.  So basically they are pretty much balanced.  I hadn't given it too much thought, so I was probably wrong about great swords being better, but it does seem they are pretty balanced overall.  If not, the imbalance certainly isn't particularly large in one direction or the other.  Estocs will be more consistent in damage output while great swords and pole axes have greater damage spike potential based on enemies.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Atheosis