Jump to content

Recommended Posts

 

 

If you want to use a Barbarian, use him for DPS you wont regret. For tanking you need someone to stop as many monsters as possible without the need to heal. The Fighter is the best option.

 

Outside being able to hold 2 more monsters down than any other class, I am having a hard time seeing why fighter is so much better at tanking? Is 15 deflection really such a deal breaker? Because that (and 10 on all other defences) is what you're losing as a barbarian compared to a fighter. And the constant regen, which starts to be better in fights that last a lot longer than 30 seconds.

 

I'd love to see some numbers that demonstrate how much better 15 deflection is on a tank with say... 120~ deflection range (with fighter getting 135~).

 

Fighters have access to much more passive deflection, target engagement and defense bonuses. On top of that, they can instantly regain endurance when knocked out (though this only comes into play at level 12), receive less crits and have have constant regeneration.

 

I've said it several times now, but there's really no equal to the fighter when it comes to tanking. The closest 2nd are Paladins, but even they pale in comparison to the abilities of a Fighter. If you want a tank, get a Fighter.

 

 

If 15 is much, then I guess. Paladins tanking stats are exactly the same as fighters though, so outside being able to hold 2 more targets they're equal.

 

I never saw the regen as that important on Hard, but I guess it does come into play in PotD. Barbarian should be able to do the same on fights that last less than 30 seconds though. Most fights did not last long enough for chanter to hit 3 verses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He he he :) i didnt take cipher because cipher has bad rep and i also didnt take rogue because the paladin has more base health as well as the revive ability. Ironman and all that. Could be useful o have multiple sources of revival.

 

Also, im not a fan of mass gunline parties. I dont like this part of the game where ranged >>>>>>>>> melee. Im playing only hard atm.

My only problem with the Cipher is that I can't manage to get a proper feel of the class. I've always had those problems with psionic classes, there is just no kind of Cipher that I would like to do.

 

I might just go with a chanter as Off-Tank. Fire godlike might be cool, though. Are the higher level summons any good? All I've seen is talk about the phantom, as you get it so early and its a killer at the start. Are the will 'o wisps useless? How about wyrms & drake?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

If you want to use a Barbarian, use him for DPS you wont regret. For tanking you need someone to stop as many monsters as possible without the need to heal. The Fighter is the best option.

 

Outside being able to hold 2 more monsters down than any other class, I am having a hard time seeing why fighter is so much better at tanking? Is 15 deflection really such a deal breaker? Because that (and 10 on all other defences) is what you're losing as a barbarian compared to a fighter. And the constant regen, which starts to be better in fights that last a lot longer than 30 seconds.

 

I'd love to see some numbers that demonstrate how much better 15 deflection is on a tank with say... 120~ deflection range (with fighter getting 135~).

 

Fighters have access to much more passive deflection, target engagement and defense bonuses. On top of that, they can instantly regain endurance when knocked out (though this only comes into play at level 12), receive less crits and have have constant regeneration.

 

I've said it several times now, but there's really no equal to the fighter when it comes to tanking. The closest 2nd are Paladins, but even they pale in comparison to the abilities of a Fighter. If you want a tank, get a Fighter.

 

 

If 15 is much, then I guess. Paladins tanking stats are exactly the same as fighters though, so outside being able to hold 2 more targets they're equal.

 

I never saw the regen as that important on Hard, but I guess it does come into play in PotD. Barbarian should be able to do the same on fights that last less than 30 seconds though. Most fights did not last long enough for chanter to hit 3 verses.

 

 

The difference would be 25 as soon as you hit frenzy. Plus a barb needs int for his carnage area and frenzy duration, while a fighter can dump int. The points that a barb needs for a good int will come from either the damage stats of might and dex or from the tanky stats of per and res.

 

If you had a barb with 15 int that is 12 points that could be saved by a fighter dumping int to 3. Those 12 points placed in a tanky stat would get you another 12 deflection as well as better saves, concentration and interrupts. The difference now would be 15 base + 12 stats = 27 deflection that would increase to 37 deflection during a frenzy. 

 

In the case where the fighter deflection = monster accuracy the barb will be taking crits 27% of the time and 37% during a frenzy. Crits having 50% higher interrupts will hammer your barb that also has less concentration than a dps fighter. If the barb deflection = monster accuracy then the fighter will be at +27 or 37 and be practically unhittable.

 

Keeping your barb safely behind the frontline and using a reach weapon will avoid him being face planted but removes him from actually engaging and "tanking" any of the monsters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

koski, are you really going to disable the DPS potential of the barbarian by making him a semi-tank?

 

Check the screenshot in this thread. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76739-jolt-carnage/

 

This damage is done with 1 hit (1 swing) so you will have a barb and you wont use him to do that?

 

There are at least 13 mobs and your barb will block 2 and the rest will just go around him and pwn your nukers. The fighter will stop 5 enemy and they will block the way for the other mobs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Amount of damage and duration per attack on average depending on the diffirence between accuracy and defence. You can see how the fighters having +30 defence will be taking like 1.6 times less damage then the barbarians because they have +15 innate defence and +15 from advanced defender perk.

 

This doesnt include DR tho.

 

Fighters only have +15 deflection compared to Barbarians. 15 vs 25 (10 difference) and 10 vs 15 (Cautious Attack vs buffed Defender). I still fail to see how that is a lot.

 

Though with the talk about increased mob sizes between Hard and PotD, the +2 targets might really come into play. Any numbers on how many more enemies are there in average?

 

Simple math if you have an attacker with 50 accuracy and fighter with 95 deflection/barbarian with 80 deflection:

 

Fighter is going to take ~0.23 attack damage per hit on average.

Barbarian is going to take ~0.37 attack damage per hit on average

 

i e barb tank takes ~1.5 times more damage because of -15 deflection in this case.

Edited by MaxDamage
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Amount of damage and duration per attack on average depending on the diffirence between accuracy and defence. You can see how the fighters having +30 defence will be taking like 1.6 times less damage then the barbarians because they have +15 innate defence and +15 from advanced defender perk.

 

This doesnt include DR tho.

 

Fighters only have +15 deflection compared to Barbarians. 15 vs 25 (10 difference) and 10 vs 15 (Cautious Attack vs buffed Defender). I still fail to see how that is a lot.

 

Though with the talk about increased mob sizes between Hard and PotD, the +2 targets might really come into play. Any numbers on how many more enemies are there in average?

 

Simple math if you have an attacker with 50 accuracy and fighter with 95 deflection/barbarian with 80 deflection:

 

Fighter is going to take ~0.23 attack damage per hit on average.

Barbarian is going to take ~0.37 attack damage per hit on average

 

i e barb tank takes ~1.5 times more damage because of -15 deflection in this case.

 

 

This difference should be easily negated by 2 DT you get from the barbarian talent, would it not?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you include DR, the diffirence must be even wider because the fighter will full damage hit only on 96-100 roll. He will always be taking MIN damage if there s a hit. The barbarian will be getting full damage - damage reduction on the rolls 80-100. So it can be even ~2-3 times.

Edited by MaxDamage
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

If you want to use a Barbarian, use him for DPS you wont regret. For tanking you need someone to stop as many monsters as possible without the need to heal. The Fighter is the best option.

 

Outside being able to hold 2 more monsters down than any other class, I am having a hard time seeing why fighter is so much better at tanking? Is 15 deflection really such a deal breaker? Because that (and 10 on all other defences) is what you're losing as a barbarian compared to a fighter. And the constant regen, which starts to be better in fights that last a lot longer than 30 seconds.

 

I'd love to see some numbers that demonstrate how much better 15 deflection is on a tank with say... 120~ deflection range (with fighter getting 135~).

 

Fighters have access to much more passive deflection, target engagement and defense bonuses. On top of that, they can instantly regain endurance when knocked out (though this only comes into play at level 12), receive less crits and have have constant regeneration.

 

I've said it several times now, but there's really no equal to the fighter when it comes to tanking. The closest 2nd are Paladins, but even they pale in comparison to the abilities of a Fighter. If you want a tank, get a Fighter.

 

 

If 15 is much, then I guess. Paladins tanking stats are exactly the same as fighters though, so outside being able to hold 2 more targets they're equal.

 

I never saw the regen as that important on Hard, but I guess it does come into play in PotD. Barbarian should be able to do the same on fights that last less than 30 seconds though. Most fights did not last long enough for chanter to hit 3 verses.

 

 

The difference would be 25 as soon as you hit frenzy. Plus a barb needs int for his carnage area and frenzy duration, while a fighter can dump int. The points that a barb needs for a good int will come from either the damage stats of might and dex or from the tanky stats of per and res.

 

If you had a barb with 15 int that is 12 points that could be saved by a fighter dumping int to 3. Those 12 points placed in a tanky stat would get you another 12 deflection as well as better saves, concentration and interrupts. The difference now would be 15 base + 12 stats = 27 deflection that would increase to 37 deflection during a frenzy. 

 

In the case where the fighter deflection = monster accuracy the barb will be taking crits 27% of the time and 37% during a frenzy. Crits having 50% higher interrupts will hammer your barb that also has less concentration than a dps fighter. If the barb deflection = monster accuracy then the fighter will be at +27 or 37 and be practically unhittable.

 

Keeping your barb safely behind the frontline and using a reach weapon will avoid him being face planted but removes him from actually engaging and "tanking" any of the monsters.

 

 

You're assuming the barbarian is going to pop Frenzy. Which he of course would not be doing while he is holding the enemies himself. This is not to say he could not frenzy when helping to take the last enemy down if he wants to.

 

You're also assuming the barbarian, whose sole purpose is to be a tank is not going to build like a tank? We're not talking about DPS barbarian tanking vs tank fighter tanking. We're talking about two, equally equipped characters with the exact same (defense oriented) stats. And there the difference boils down to: Barbarian has more health & endurance (240 base endurance) and DT (2, from Thick-Skinned) and less deflection (15 base, 10 from Cautious Attack modal) while fighter has less health & endurance (210 base endurance) and more deflection (25 base, 5 from Defender modal and 10 from Wary Defender) and more of other defences (10 from Wary Defender).

 

Sure, it will harm a lot of barbarians damage potential, but its still going to be higher than a fighters, who has the same build. You're going to be flanked less than a fighter (which is gonna bring down the deflection difference to 5 points against 2 opponents), you're going to be dealing more damage (and thus, contributing to the faster ending of a combat) because of One Stands Alone (which will give you +20 damage, or 15,8 because you'll have -21% from might 3 assuming no items increase it). This can be further increased by Blooded (+50% damage when at <50% endurance).

 

From where I stand, outside tanking more than 3 opponents (which barbarian is not able to do, reliably at least), barbarian should be as good or even better tank than a fighter is. And they are also able to contribute massively with their damage compared to a full tank fighter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would argue that there is no 'essential' class or build aside from the fact that you need three things. You need damage absorbion/mitigation, you need healing/buffs, and you need DPS. Where you get those things from is up to you and there are obvious choices and less obvious choices. For example in my non triple crown run I am running 5 chanters and 1 druid and that build absolutely destroys 99% of fights, simply because 5 phantoms stunlock 99% of mobs and not many mobs can burst through 250 HP in less than the 12 seonds it takes to resummon. similarly 3 rangers a druid a priest and a chanter actually works quite well provided you heal up your front row of bears/stags well enough. Again 3 tanking druids and 3 ciphers works well too, as you can pop spirit form for tankyness and you have heals and you have enough aoe to nuke the hell out of most fights and enough DPS to focus any big bosses. 

 

TBH you can make most full parties work as long as you have a front line capable of tanking and enough dps to out damage any enemy heals (looking at you forest trolls). So yea i would say just play around with eah class for fun and be imaginative, you can get some pretty funny results, party optimisation is only needed when you start restricing how big your party is, yea when you only have 3 people you need to min max but with 6 in the party... i mean this is without even starting to talk about scroll and figurine use.

 

Also id just like to add that it really pays to look at enemy resistances, if they have 12 DR crush but 4 DR for fire you really want to bring some fire damage to the party

Edited by Ceranai
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barbarian seems best off with a reach weapon and next to no armor in my experience. Stick them behind the parties fighter and watch the the enemies struggle to break through the fighters defense while your barb tears them apart.They have nice high hp too.. which keeps them alive when things go wrong long enough to lets you react.

Edited by DracoSpirit86
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Just get 1 Ranger 1 Ranged rogue instead 2 ranged rogues , ranger will always do more damage at the start of fight than rogue , ranger slows down after u used all 4 pistols tho 

 

Can you hot key weapon swaps? I wasn't able to figure it out.

 

They are already hotkeyed , on your characters action bar you can always switch between weapon sets just click on the weapon in action bar and other sets will pop up , thats the only proper way to play ranger use the damage boosts you get from class skills to deliver biggest damage possible with guns 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Just get 1 Ranger 1 Ranged rogue instead 2 ranged rogues , ranger will always do more damage at the start of fight than rogue , ranger slows down after u used all 4 pistols tho 

 

Can you hot key weapon swaps? I wasn't able to figure it out.

 

No you cant hotkey weapon swaps as far as I can tell, ive checked the controls and it isnt there and you cant hotkey it the same way you hotkey abilities (hover over and press the key you want to bind it to)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Just get 1 Ranger 1 Ranged rogue instead 2 ranged rogues , ranger will always do more damage at the start of fight than rogue , ranger slows down after u used all 4 pistols tho 

 

Can you hot key weapon swaps? I wasn't able to figure it out.

 

They are already hotkeyed , on your characters action bar you can always switch between weapon sets just click on the weapon in action bar and other sets will pop up , thats the only proper way to play ranger use the damage boosts you get from class skills to deliver biggest damage possible with guns 

 

Since you mentioned it, i dont know how it is with you, but when i click on the action bar it switches between first weapon set  and second, AND bare hands (a bug maybe?) - this is on every character and no they dont have a third weapon set unlocked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Just get 1 Ranger 1 Ranged rogue instead 2 ranged rogues , ranger will always do more damage at the start of fight than rogue , ranger slows down after u used all 4 pistols tho 

 

Can you hot key weapon swaps? I wasn't able to figure it out.

 

They are already hotkeyed , on your characters action bar you can always switch between weapon sets just click on the weapon in action bar and other sets will pop up , thats the only proper way to play ranger use the damage boosts you get from class skills to deliver biggest damage possible with guns 

 

Since you mentioned it, i dont know how it is with you, but when i click on the action bar it switches between first weapon set  and second, AND bare hands (a bug maybe?) - this is on every character and no they dont have a third weapon set unlocked.

 

its not a bug, and tsreally great on a monk, i really dont see why monks get a free weapon set though lol, if you look at the tooltip when you click it it cycles through I, II, and III so im pretty sure the change was deliberate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didnt quite get it what u meant hotkeyed they are in the action bar , what else would you want , you just need to hover weapon and another action bar appears with your weapon sets and you choose the one you want , i basicly have a gunner with 4 weapon sets in every team i make and never had any problems with quickswitching and it seems to be fastest way to deliver deadly bursts 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didnt quite get it what u meant hotkeyed they are in the action bar , what else would you want , you just need to hover weapon and another action bar appears with your weapon sets and you choose the one you want , i basicly have a gunner with 4 weapon sets in every team i make and never had any problems with quickswitching and it seems to be fastest way to deliver deadly bursts 

Hotkeyed refers to binding an action to a specific key on the keyboard, IE on my chanter all my summons are bound to Q,W,R,T making it much easier to cast quickly. The point here is that there is no option to keybind switch weapons but it is possible to bind specific spells.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Depends on how much you want to minmax. If you mean create the most powerful party possible, I'm sure somebody else can help you, I haven't even tried Barbarian or Monk yet. 

 

But another way is, I think you can pretty much go with any class composition, and then try minmaxing to get the best out of them, which is another fun way. I think POTD is winnable with most party makeup. I'm currently going through with PC melee Rogue, Kana, Pallegina and Alroth. Which is technically zero tanks and a couple of widely panned classes. I'm doing just fine. 

 

To get back to 'best party composition' though, I think Ciphers' ability to stun and charm indefinitely put them above Wizards. Melee rogues I think can achieve higher damage output on single targets than ranged rogues or rangers, but are of course at greater risk of an early death. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cipher's "thing" kinda shows when, on PoTD, you're trying to blunderbuss that dragon or some other boss with their 120 or what deflection, get 6 misses and 1 graze, replenish 4 focus and then **** it, let's just put that Lore to use and murder everything with a stack of lightning bolt scrolls.

Meanwhile Wizard just puts a stack of Petrify spells on top of enemy and you kill it. And if you're out you throw Slumbers, and if you're out of that go for Confusions instead, and if you're out you put Slickens instead, etc etc.

 

Wizard is one class that can finish game with 0 damage in a log while still winning most of the fights for the party. And unlike Cipher, Wizard actually can become fairly hard to kill with Blur/Safeguard/Arcane Veil whatever.

I also like that Wiz can pump his accuracy to have even higher chance of landing spells.

Edited by Shadenuat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good points, I didn't think it that way, and was struggling to make full use of those Wizard self-defense spells. I'll try that with my current POTD run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cipher's "thing" kinda shows when, on PoTD, you're trying to blunderbuss that dragon or some other boss with their 120 or what deflection, get 6 misses and 1 graze, replenish 4 focus and then **** it, let's just put that Lore to use and murder everything with a stack of lightning bolt scrolls.

Meanwhile Wizard just puts a stack of Petrify spells on top of enemy and you kill it. And if you're out you throw Slumbers, and if you're out of that go for Confusions instead, and if you're out you put Slickens instead, etc etc.

 

Wizard is one class that can finish game with 0 damage in a log while still winning most of the fights for the party. And unlike Cipher, Wizard actually can become fairly hard to kill with Blur/Safeguard/Arcane Veil whatever.

I also like that Wiz can pump his accuracy to have even higher chance of landing spells.

So you're living in a world where all of the Cipher's initial spells fail to pass checks but the Wizard's can?

 

I'm sorry but you're spouting nonsense or playing horribly. The initial spells will most likely paralyze/lower resistances of the mobs. They now have penalties to deflection and defenses, allowing for blunderbuss or gun to hit. 

 

After Biting/Draining Whip, you go full on range accuracy talents anyways. I'm not exactly sure how you're having trouble. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

was struggling to make full use of those Wizard self-defense spells

I find that in PoE, in a party of 6, you have so much resources you tend to even forget about half of them and may not even learn what every spell does. You just randomly throw stuff at enemies and eventually they just succumb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Depends on how much you want to minmax. If you mean create the most powerful party possible, I'm sure somebody else can help you, I haven't even tried Barbarian or Monk yet. 

 

But another way is, I think you can pretty much go with any class composition, and then try minmaxing to get the best out of them, which is another fun way. I think POTD is winnable with most party makeup. I'm currently going through with PC melee Rogue, Kana, Pallegina and Alroth. Which is technically zero tanks and a couple of widely panned classes. I'm doing just fine. 

 

To get back to 'best party composition' though, I think Ciphers' ability to stun and charm indefinitely put them above Wizards. Melee rogues I think can achieve higher damage output on single targets than ranged rogues or rangers, but are of course at greater risk of an early death.

I just wanted to ask if it is even possible to finish PotD with PC and only story companions. I'm about to start a new game because I'm sick of "cheating" in all follower changes made by patch 1.0.3 and I'm thinking about starting the with PotD.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

was struggling to make full use of those Wizard self-defense spells

I find that in PoE, in a party of 6, you have so much resources you tend to even forget about half of them and may not even learn what every spell does. You just randomly throw stuff at enemies and eventually they just succumb.

 

I dont forget. I pause very often and press tab very often to check recoveries. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...