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Stupid faction choice in Defiance Bay!

faction defiance bay quest

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72 replies to this topic

#61
Ceranai

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1) Has very little effect of your game what faction you side with aside from RP fanatics

2) I thought it was really clear from the dialogue text that siding with a faction was exclusive. I mean of the two (knights and dozens) that i have sided with they made it clear i wouldn t be able to side with otehrs and when i refused to side with the other one they made it clear it was exclusive as well. Anyone who didnt pick up on this clearly ddnt read the text that quite clearly states that they wont tolerate split loyalties etc etc



#62
hughsviii

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Hi, Kickstarter backer here, only I used my real name for my account and I'd rather not post on a forum under it.

 

Exactly the same thing as mentioned by the OP happened to me, and whilst I wouldn't consider myself an "RP fanatic" I have found this to be a big shock to my immersion. It might only be a little thing, but I feel like I've been railroaded and my interest in continuing to play the game has dipped. Unintended consequences are fine, but these consequences are a result of clunky game design rather than am attempt to immerse or tell a complete narrative.

 

I ran into this because:

 

The first thing which is unclear is how the Dozens are introduced to the player. "The Adventuring Hall" sounds like an utterly generic quest hub and looks like a ski chalet rather than the HQ of a religious paramilitary organisation. In the first quest you do for The Dozens you are assigned to go after an individual Knight of the Crucible by another individual for a personal reason, and in the process you expose this Knight as an imposter according to the bylaws of his organisation. This is a win-win scenario, and the main difference which emerges from this quest is that the Knights are snobs and the Dozens don't seem to do anything at all.

 

That this contrasts with the crazy preacher you first meet and a companion's comment that they're bigots led me to assume I hadn't worked for the Dozens but just some nice guy who was kicked out of the Knights by a fraud. I didn't actually learn anything about the Dozens, which is why I am now annoyed to learn I am locked onto that path.

 

The second thing which is unclear is that whilst the second questgiver makes it fairly clear that actually delivering the weapons will make the Knights angry, since you're delivering them to arm the Dozens against the Knights, nothing tells you that agreeing to look into it locks you into supporting this little theocratic militia. As others have said, this can be dealt with redesigning the quest in different ways.

 

But the reason why I accepted before going on to do lots of other stuff in Defiance Bay was because I was still trying to understand the politics of Defiance Bay. Whilst it's clear there's a lot of controversy over animancy, each faction's view on this controversy is absent from their first quest. Wandering around Defiance Bay solving people's quests, I very quickly understood that animancy is divisive - what I didn't understand was how this division was manifest in the politics of Defiance Bay. Even if the first quest for the Dozens had actually managed to communicate it was a quest from the Dozens, I would still have accepted the second without a warning because A) accepting quests in an RPG is like picking up keys - you always do it when you see one - and B) I didn't know enough about the Dozens themselves and their relationship to the controversey within Defiance Bay.

 

In short, the reason this is a problem is because this quest suffers from a combination of poor design and poor writing. This caught me by surprise as the standard for both up until this point has been excellent.

 

So, I'm now at a point where I am locked onto a path I really do not want to pursue because of clunky development, and reloading to a state previous would undo many, many hours of side questing. Personally, I'm going to hold off for now on either playing it or recommending it to people (which I have been doing) until we get some idea of how Obsidian are going to respond to these complaints. I'm not calling for an entire rewrite of the three factions' quest chains (although that probably would be a good thing, especially in the Dozens' case), but it seems pretty clear to me that this undesired locking is effectively a bug in that players are having poor experiences as a result of bad design. Please consider making the lock only apply after finishing the quest, not on accepting it.


Edited by hughsviii, 22 April 2015 - 12:26 PM.

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#63
Powerpaul

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If you want to join the crucible knights and you are beeing rejected by clyver because of accepting the second quest of the dozens, you can just edit the conversation file accordingly :)

 

 

Open following file with editor or notepad:

\Pillars of Eternity\PillarsOfEternity_Data\data\conversations\02_defiance_bay_first_fires\02_cv_clyver_rimgund.conversation

 

(Make a backup file at this point, just for safety if you screw it up)

 

Then search for: "n_MercenaryHire_State"

You will find two matches in the file looking like this

 

            <Parameters>
                <string>n_MercenaryHire_State</string>
                <string>GreaterThan</string>
                <string>0</string>      
              </Parameters>
 
Change them both to this:
 
            <Parameters>
                <string>n_MercenaryHire_State</string>
                <string>GreaterThan</string>
                <string>1</string>      
              </Parameters>
 
 
 
This will just increase clyvers limit for the variable indicating your progress of the dozens questline. 
(You can increase the limit probably even further if you take a higher number than 1...)

Edited by Powerpaul, 23 April 2015 - 08:48 AM.

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#64
hughsviii

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I actually tried that, but the option to progress further doesn't come up? I've got inside the dungeon where said Bronzes are located, so should I maybe increase it to a number higher than 1?



#65
Exoduss

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You people are taking a wrong approach think like this : Dozens this is where you are supposed to be for your first playtrough unless you go out of the way and get rewarded for that . Also Dozens wont tell you anything because : they are pretty much common scumbag graverobers and nothing more 



#66
Crucis

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1) Has very little effect of your game what faction you side with aside from RP fanatics

2) I thought it was really clear from the dialogue text that siding with a faction was exclusive. I mean of the two (knights and dozens) that i have sided with they made it clear i wouldn t be able to side with otehrs and when i refused to side with the other one they made it clear it was exclusive as well. Anyone who didnt pick up on this clearly ddnt read the text that quite clearly states that they wont tolerate split loyalties etc etc

 

"RP fanatics"?  Seriously?  This is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, for crying out loud!  Why shouldn't people take their role playing seriously?

 

 

And frankly, I don't think that it's clear at all when you've supposedly been committed to a particular faction.  I certainly made no conscious choice to do so.  Mind you, I'm on my second significant play-thru. First time, I sided with the Knights.  This time, I've been committed to the Dozen pretty much against my will.  This seems particularly a problem with the Dozens, since they're supposed to be this group that sends out adventuring parties.  Why should someone think that taking a Dozens sponsored adventure constitutes formally aligning your party with them?

 

IMO, it ought to be possible to do a couple of missions (quests, whatever) for each faction without being formally committed to them.  And when it comes to formally aligning with a faction, it should be absolutely 1000% obvious that that's what's occurring.  With the crime family, formal alignment might mean becoming "part of the family business", so to speak.  And with the other two groups, something similar and very obvious should occur, whether it's becoming a member of their "inner circle" or whatever.


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#67
Luckmann

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1) Has very little effect of your game what faction you side with aside from RP fanatics

2) I thought it was really clear from the dialogue text that siding with a faction was exclusive. I mean of the two (knights and dozens) that i have sided with they made it clear i wouldn t be able to side with otehrs and when i refused to side with the other one they made it clear it was exclusive as well. Anyone who didnt pick up on this clearly ddnt read the text that quite clearly states that they wont tolerate split loyalties etc etc

 

  1.  ...it's a roleplaying game. Roleplaying is literallly the purpose of the game. By any right, issues like this should warrant greater discussion than any systemic error.
  2. The issue isn't really that they're exclusive, but that they are exclusive before you even finish the quests - you become locked out for merely agreeing to do the quests - and are uninteresting in that you cannot lie or do anything once it's been revealed what they want you to do. You lose player agency. This is in addition to even more screwed-up issues.

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#68
hughsviii

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IMO, it ought to be possible to do a couple of missions (quests, whatever) for each faction without being formally committed to them.  And when it comes to formally aligning with a faction, it should be absolutely 1000% obvious that that's what's occurring.  With the crime family, formal alignment might mean becoming "part of the family business", so to speak.  And with the other two groups, something similar and very obvious should occur, whether it's becoming a member of their "inner circle" or whatever.

 

 

It's also rather odd considering the earlier quests you do for each faction demonstrate you're a valuable, high-skill asset the factions don't realise "Wow, this person is good - we're definitely going to want to keep them as an ace up our sleeve". Instead the complete opposite happens, and you get "You've done good work for the Dozens as well? Sorry, we don't want to poach you from our rivals."

 

It's a weird way for political organisations to behave, based on a weird barometer of trust.


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#69
yaggaz

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Your cake, you can't have it, and eat it, too. 

 

You can when GOOD RPG designers make games.

 

And besides, your comment was a self indulgent strawman argument that has nothing to do with anything here.  He's not asking to be part of both, just have a warning that a faction lock is about to happen.  Learn to read k?



#70
yaggaz

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If you want to join the crucible knights and you are beeing rejected by clyver because of accepting the second quest of the dozens, you can just edit the conversation file accordingly :)

 

 

Open following file with editor or notepad:

\Pillars of Eternity\PillarsOfEternity_Data\data\conversations\02_defiance_bay_first_fires\02_cv_clyver_rimgund.conversation

 

(Make a backup file at this point, just for safety if you screw it up)

 

Then search for: "n_MercenaryHire_State"

You will find two matches in the file looking like this

 

            <Parameters>
                <string>n_MercenaryHire_State</string>
                <string>GreaterThan</string>
                <string>0</string>      
              </Parameters>
 
Change them both to this:
 
            <Parameters>
                <string>n_MercenaryHire_State</string>
                <string>GreaterThan</string>
                <string>1</string>      
              </Parameters>
 
 
 
This will just increase clyvers limit for the variable indicating your progress of the dozens questline. 
(You can increase the limit probably even further if you take a higher number than 1...)

 

 

Thank you very much.  Nice to see you can edit your way out of bad game design.



#71
codectified

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If you want to join the crucible knights and you are beeing rejected by clyver because of accepting the second quest of the dozens, you can just edit the conversation file accordingly :)

 

 

Open following file with editor or notepad:

\Pillars of Eternity\PillarsOfEternity_Data\data\conversations\02_defiance_bay_first_fires\02_cv_clyver_rimgund.conversation

 

(Make a backup file at this point, just for safety if you screw it up)

 

Then search for: "n_MercenaryHire_State"

You will find two matches in the file looking like this

 

            <Parameters>
                <string>n_MercenaryHire_State</string>
                <string>GreaterThan</string>
                <string>0</string>      
              </Parameters>
 
Change them both to this:
 
            <Parameters>
                <string>n_MercenaryHire_State</string>
                <string>GreaterThan</string>
                <string>1</string>      
              </Parameters>
 
 
 
This will just increase clyvers limit for the variable indicating your progress of the dozens questline. 
(You can increase the limit probably even further if you take a higher number than 1...)

 

this is awesomeness.. any idea how it can be done to be able to do the Doemenel quests and get the crit ability?  would one be effectively double crossing factions at this point.. would be fitting for me rogue.. but also would have been cool if the developers allowed this option in the first place..



#72
Kazuma

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Nice necro there. Assuming that the game files haven't changed due to patches in the last year+ I'd venture to guess you'd find a similar file named after the npc handling the Doemenel quests. Well assuming they exist in the same area/map. That appears to be how the directory structure is organized from the above quote. I haven't played in that long so I can't really confirm anything (don't remember the npc name to start with).

 

That all said it's not like the quest was written with double crossing in mind, right? So it's not like you'll get a reaction out of anyone for having done so. If all you want is to get an ability.. why not just add it to your character through the console? It's probably less likely to break anything compared to modifying game resources. The downside being you'd disable achievements but then I don't see how one can claim modifying game resources to get the same effect is not in fact cheating. If you knew what you were doing you could probably modify a convo file to allow you to get infinite quest rewards by modifying the state check in a similar way. That's a fairly common bug in these sorts of games after release. Infinite money/xp exploits are usually just a matter of discovering dialog trees that aren't properly checking the token/variable that indicates quest competition.

 

But either way you should backup your saves and any files you tinker with. There's a chance you could crash the game if you managed to get variables outside their expected range. Or there could be unintended consequences if it's used down the line in another quest/convo. You might break something and not realize until hours later into your playthru. /shrug. To me using the console seems like the less risky choice.


Edited by Kazuma, 11 July 2016 - 04:17 PM.

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#73
codectified

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thanks! any resources for messing with the console.. I'll probably just play the game through once as it is for achievements sake.. but am curious about messing around later..







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