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Stupid faction choice in Defiance Bay!

faction defiance bay quest

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72 replies to this topic

#21
pi2repsion

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Can i do the quests for all sides that lets me purchase stuff from related merchants then stick to one side?

Yes.

 

 

Still, judging by this thread CRPGs need stickers saying "Warning: This is a game of incomplete information. Your actions can have unforeseen consequences, and sometimes they are not what you want." :banghead:


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#22
Koth

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Can i do the quests for all sides that lets me purchase stuff from related merchants then stick to one side?

Yes.

 

 

Still, judging by this thread CRPGs need stickers saying "Warning: This is a game of incomplete information. Your actions can have unforeseen consequences, and sometimes they are not what you want." :banghead:

 

So Just to be clear. I too have done all the quests up to unlocking the respective merchants but not yet committed to a faction... do I need to buy all the stuff I want prior to committing to a faction... or once committed, do I lose access to the merchants not aligned to my committed faction. Reason I'm asking as I don't yet have the funds I need to buy all the stuff I want from the other factions yet, so I've been holding off committing to a faction until I can afford all the gear I want.



#23
sparklecat

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You can still enter the other groups' areas and buy from them after committing to another faction by accepting a quest, though if they wind up hating you in the course of the quest, I'm willing to wager that may not last.



#24
nornaidel

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I agree that this needs to be changed. At first I thought the Dozens were just some adventuring company, and I figured I could help them out and get some money while at it. I finished the first quest, then accepted the second quest, but after learning more about the Dozen's changed my mind and figured I rather liked the Crucible Knights more. But no. Just because I had accepted -- not completed, nor even attempted -- a job for the Dozens, Clyver somehow magically knew about it and wouldn't work with me.

 

I didn't even get the option to say "screw the Dozens, I'll cancel my job with them as I'd rather work with you".

 

As it is designed now, it seems too easy to accidentally get irrevocably aligned with a group you don't care for that much.



#25
Mirandel

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Doesn't everyone straight out say when you ask about their second quest that if you do it the other two factions won't be very fond of you?  It was pretty clearly conveyed as an exclusive choice for the Knights, at least.

 

They pretty much said "the cruicible Knights won't like it". That's it.

So no, it's NOT clear. Not in the least.

 

Why am I, a neutral mercenray, suiddenly personana non-grata? Why the hell id it an insourmantable obstacle, when I have a excellent relations with the Knights?

 

A fetch/exploration job is treated as a decelaration of utter loyalty. How can one expect loyalty out of me when I was never invited to be part of the group to bein with?

there never was a "Do you want to join us?" with the knights.

And the Dozen seem like a loose group. They organize contracts and expeditions, so how is "Hey, do you need a extra hand on one of the expeditions?" the same as "I'm loyal to you and only to you!"

 

 

To be fair - you are exact;y as you said, a GOOD NEUTRAL mercenary to them. Someone they can trust (if payment is good, they understand that part about you) with something simple, yet not devoted to their course to the degree to have nothing with other factions. I think it's very PR.



#26
Sleazebag

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Are people not reading the text or what? The quest givers make it obvious that you can't side with the others afterwards. It's extremely blatant. 

 

I can't wait for someone to whine about siding with the Doemenel, doing the aggressive route on the second quest and not being able to join the other factions. "i assassinated a crucible leader, now i cant join them??? wtf???"


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#27
nornaidel

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Are people not reading the text or what? The quest givers make it obvious that you can't side with the others afterwards. It's extremely blatant. 

 

I can't wait for someone to whine about siding with the Doemenel, doing the aggressive route on the second quest and not being able to join the other factions. "i assassinated a crucible leader, now i cant join them??? wtf???"

 

Really? This is what Wenan tells you at the Dozens HQ:
 

 

PC: "I'm looking for work."

 

Wenan: "I do have something, if you don't mind stepping on the toes of the Crucible Knights. Come to think of it, the Doemenels won't be too pleased either. They've never liked seeing someone with nicer things than them."

 

 

But I might not possess your superior reading comprehension, so please do tell me how this translates into "If you say 'yes' you can't work with any of the other factions, and also, they will magically know you accepted the job, even if you later change your mind and don't even attempt it."

 

Considering how the game handles reputation I only thought this would give me a reputation hit with either faction, not exclude me from working with them if I later decide I like them better.


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#28
Starthief

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I'd expect the Crucible Knights to have pretty high standards.

In fact one of my minor issues with this game, like many others, is the extent that strangers are willing to trust you and bring you into their secret plots with startling ease sometimes.  "Well, foreigner, I don't know who you are, you barged into my house armed to the teeth and killed my bodyguard on the way in, you need a bath, I dislike your entire race, and I'm part of a very secretive and paranoid cult.  Here's the combination to my safe and my daughter's hand in marriage!"


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#29
Zenicetus

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You can still enter the other groups' areas and buy from them after committing to another faction by accepting a quest, though if they wind up hating you in the course of the quest, I'm willing to wager that may not last.

 

Can we get a confirmation of how that works? Anyone know?

 

I'm also at that point where I have access to all the special faction merchants but haven't done the final commitment yet. There are still some things I'd like to buy from all of them, when I get a little more cash. It makes thematic sense that I won't have access after the final quest that locks me into a faction choice, but it would be nice to know for sure. 

 

Regarding the dialogs, I agree that it probably should have been a little more clear that accepting the second quest would be a lock-out for the other factions. I had read a little about it ahead of time -- don't remember if it was here, or on the Wiki -- so I knew it was coming and could watch for it. But it's easy to miss on a first play-through, if you're getting into the habit of accepting every quest you're offered.

 

And yes, people should read carefully, but it's also still supposed to be a fun game. A break point into branching paths like this should be more heavily flagged. Not just an off-hand comment that the other factions may not like it. In most RPG's, a choice like this would be followed by a second dialog window saying "Are you sure? Because this means you won't be able to work with the other factions," or something similar.

 

Maybe the devs and beta testers have played through this sequence so often that they didn't realize how easy it was to miss. It's also not entirely clear, by the time you can reach this decision, that all these factions are actually in direct opposition to each other. That may be another case of "assumed knowledge" that doesn't apply to those playing the game for the first time.


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#30
Suen

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Not trusting The Dozen, I accepted the quest in order to secure the weapons and avoid a potential bloodbath. Instead I found myself stuck with the faction I was trying to sabotage.

 

Up to that point I was given the option to betray the quest giver whenever it was logic to do so. And quest givers are not omniscient, or so many more would still be alive.

 

Well, there is a certain brilliance in being casually outwitted by Wenan sending the Knights in my direction, but that point in the game is somewhat messy:

  • Why I'm unable to warn the Knights about the plan to recover the weapons?
  • To fail the quest, I killed the quest giver and lowered my reputation with The Dozen to "scoundrel". Even so, I still was a "close ally of the dozen" according to the Knights Commander.
  • Why I can even take that quest without questions, when I openly murdered few groups from The Dozen? Someone must have seen me leave those buildings, or when I was fighting in the street. And I'm very well known. I'd expect to be told "Sorry, you are good bloke/nice lass, but I can't trust you with this delicate matter because you keep butchering my men".

Compare it to

Spoiler
: this one being so linear is a bit of an anomaly.


Edited by Suen, 10 April 2015 - 02:35 PM.

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#31
olpika

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Why am I, a neutral mercenray, suiddenly personana non-grata?

What led you to believe that the crucible knights would accept in their ranks a "neutral mercenary"? They're basically the most paladinesque of the paladins.



#32
le Duc

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I Think I've found a solution to that pb.

Just kill the 3 mercenarys at the very entrance of the Dozen's building (without being seen by the boss)

It will low your reputation enough to pass trough the anymancy assembly with the Knights.

And the people in the Dozen's building are not hostile (their quest is still doable)

 

Sorry for my bad english

 

Vive la France!


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#33
PhroX

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I'll just add my voice to the dislike of this. If there is to be a "lockout", it should come after these quests. There should be a massive difference between saying you'll get the weapons for the Dozens and actually giving those weapons to them.



#34
Luckmann

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Why am I, a neutral mercenray, suiddenly personana non-grata?

What led you to believe that the crucible knights would accept in their ranks a "neutral mercenary"? They're basically the most paladinesque of the paladins.

 

 

And they're not even Paladins.

Unfortunately.

;_;



#35
Bugged Wolf Companion

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I thought it was perfectly clear - I refused the quest from the crucible knight because he downright said - this'll make you unpopular with the 2 other factions.. The dozen said the same when I took their quest.

 

Spoiler

 

 

In political reality (which this somewhat tries to represent) if you clearly allign yourself with one group (which you did), who are opposed to others, then it's hardly a wonder that the other groups can't be seen with you.. It would hurt their own political agenda.

 

I'm seriously not getting the outrage here.

i had the same problem with the knights i wanted to join them but it was to late as i was one member of the dozen already

 

this could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest


Edited by Bugged Wolf Companion, 12 April 2015 - 06:58 AM.


#36
Jojobobo

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I have to admit I got locked into the Crucible Knights when I would have rather sided with the thief house for my current character. I didn't realise they were mutually exclusive, and a lot of it seems dependent on what order you visit the various districts of Defiance Bay - which you shouldn't be punished for.



#37
Rosbjerg

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This could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest

 

Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

Of course I understand that you guys are angry with the fact that you feel cheated by the game (which is a ****ty feeling), I just don't see why you feel that way.


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#38
Varana

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Because there is no reason why this should be a consequence of our action, and why there should not be a way to change course until after a certain point. The consequence does not follow logically (or even plausibly) from the action.

The game offers a lot of freedom and opportunities to do unintended stuff. Like how they thought about what to do if we slaughter everyone in the caravan in the prologue. Until now, I've found out three different ways for Calisca to die (plus getting her killed in combat or doing that myself), and there's probably more.
The contrast to this quest line is so jarring. It's not a choice and then a consequence, it's the game preventing us from completely logical actions. Like making amends with the Crucible Knights by demonstrating that we're most definitely not in league with the Dozens. Shouldn't that be possible?
Staying with that example: Wenan (not only a member of the Dozens but also the one who runs an expedition kickstarter) recruits us for an expedition. The Knights might not like that - but my character screen tells me that my standing with the Knights is "Good" or "Hero" or whatever (can check later). At that point, I was simply "Moderate" with the Dozens, i.e. I had better relations with the Knights. It stays the same after accepting and even finishing the quest! Why should I prefer one information over the other? And how should I know which one the game expects me to believe?
We get to the other party and they tell us that Knights guard the entrance to Lle a Rhemen. We proceed to kill them (the party, not the Knights).
If we return at that point, we are chums with the Knights, killed some Dozens, prevented their expedition, in fact: everything went just great for the Knights.
Why exactly is that a reason for the Knights to believe that we're not on their side? That doesn't compute.

It's not that consequences should always be spelt out.
It's that this particular consequence does not in any way follow from our actions - and if that happens, it would be nice to give a hint. "Dear player, we know it doesn't make any sense, but please be informed that if you do X, Y will happen."

Edited by Varana, 12 April 2015 - 09:01 AM.

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#39
Zenicetus

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Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

I agree with that general view of playing RPG's, but I think there is still a flaw here, related to the map layout and where and when you find these quests. It assumes a type of player who explores every new area as much as possible, dipping into quests here and there, building up a backlog of uncompleted quests. That's mostly how I play. I don't want to miss anything, and it doesn't bother me to have a bunch of different uncompleted quests to finish.

 

Others might play in a more linear or "vertical" fashion, finding a quest and running straight down that line to the end. This can even extend to clearing each individual map before moving to any others, unless it's directly tied to that one quest they're following. That can lead to ignoring the Knights and the Doemenel factions until after the branching point.

 

A good game design can handle both types of gamer. All it would have taken here, is a simple confirmation screen with an alert to the seriousness of the choice. 



#40
PhroX

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This could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest

 

Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

Of course I understand that you guys are angry with the fact that you feel cheated by the game (which is a ****ty feeling), I just don't see why you feel that way.

 

 

I have no problem with choices having unforeseen consequences. I have a serious problem with choices having illogical consequences. Simply agreeing to go on an expedition for the Dozens should not be enough to make you an enemy of the Knights. 


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