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It was a common and dull tactic to just buff yourself like mad and spend less than the time you spent buffing to kill an enemy.

 

I'm not 100% anti pre-buffing but this is definitely better than having to cast "immune to getting completely wrecked by save or die stuff" before fighting enemies with such abilities, and definitely also better than stacking a bunch of long duration stuff every time you rest as well. Wasn't really interesting casting a bunch of +2 attribute for 9 hours sort of spells before going off and fighting stuff.

 

I think the solution is turning a few spells into "upkeep" spells that come with pros/cons and take up a spell or two. This would give some of the Wizard buff spells a purpose. Still, Wizard would also need some other options to really make gish builds work but it'd be a step in the right direction without adding any tedium.

 

D&D 5th edition eliminated the pre-buff stage before opening a door by making buffs require concentration -- you can only concentrate on one spell at a time, so that's one buff.

 

It's a bit too gamey for PnP (but that's what a DM is for), but it would fit into a video game just fine.

Edited by Daemonjax
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Pre-buffing is too a negative. It costs a spell slot, maybe more. It's a strategic decision.

 

I don't pre-buff all that much in BG2 precisely for this reason, except for the utterly no-brainer super-long-duration ones which really should have been nerfed from hours to rounds (Stoneskin, Iron Skins, Circle of Protection against Evil, maybe a few more).

 

Again: nerfing the durations (=increasing the strategic cost of using the spell) and limiting resting (=making the strategic cost count) would have been quite enough to eliminate rote pre-buffing. If pre-buffing was allowed, my spell use pattern would not change all that much; only the order in which I use them.

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Pre-buffing is obviously an advantage to the player, but it's a boring advantage. It's a no-brainer.

 

Nope, you can decide not to do the pre-buffing, save time and start offensively even if pre-buffing is possible. 

 

That is obvious but pointless -- sure, some fights might be so easy that buffing doesn't matter because you're going to faceroll them anyway.

 

That doesn't change the fact that pre-combat buffing is never a negative.

 

In-combat buffing is always both a negative and a positive -- you must decide how to use the scarce resource of combat action. That's what makes it an interesting part of tactics, rather than just busywork you have to go through before every fight.

 

Buff or attack in combat: interesting decision, fun. Buff or don't buff pre-combat: boring decision, not fun.

 

 

Again: If buffing is not the top priority, I won't do it before combat, because it means wasting spell slots for other tactics. What is the difference between the "busywork of buffing" during combat and before combat? If buffs are so mandatory to you that you would pre-buff everytime you have the chance, you would also buff in combat. If not, you would play, according to your own judgment, inferior tactics.

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Pre-buffing is too a negative. It costs a spell slot, maybe more. It's a strategic decision.

 

You are assuming a system in which everyone's abilities use spell slots, which isn't the case in this game.

 

Which buffs are you thinking of? Besides spells, I can only think of paladin auras (no strategic or tactical cost to start with) and Divine Radiance. 

 

Thing is, Divine Radiance isn't just a buff: it also applies Burn damage to enemies within range. Especially when fighting Vessels the timing makes a lot of difference: it's by no means automatically the best strategy to hit it first thing rather than waiting for as many of the nasties to be in range as possible. The duration is also short enough that you're wasting a lot of its potential if you apply it before everybody is actually attacking.

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Pre-buffing is too a negative. It costs a spell slot, maybe more. It's a strategic decision.

 

You are assuming a system in which everyone's abilities use spell slots, which isn't the case in this game.

 

 

You are assuming such a thing is written in stone, it is not. The opposition against pre-buffing is almost universally based on how it worked in the IE games, and that there is a strict dichotomy at play - IE Pre-Buffing vs. No Pre-Buffing. Which has been proven to be patently false.

 

PrimeJunta's point was that Pre-Buffing can be balanced, and in that, he is entirely correct. There are more potential mechanisms at play than all or nothing.

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D&D 5th edition eliminated the pre-buff stage before opening a door by making buffs require concentration -- you can only concentrate on one spell at a time, so that's one buff.

 

It's a bit too gamey for PnP (but that's what a DM is for), but it would fit into a video game just fine.

 

Mage the Ascension ( a part of World of Darkness PnP) had similiar mechanics.

 

Maintaining one buff per character or one buff per party would be great and it would make buffing a real tactical decision instead of no brainer.

Pre buffing wouldn't be an issue if you cannot stack buffs and if buffs would be more versatile. 

 

 

Going slightly off-topic here, but yeah: Shadowrun has a similar mechanic for every kind of buff, with a talent / perk to gain bonus concentration so you can maintain more spells without losing dice for spellcasting. I also liked Dragon Age's system of cutting mana percentages for keeping buffs up.

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D&D 5th edition eliminated the pre-buff stage before opening a door by making buffs require concentration -- you can only concentrate on one spell at a time, so that's one buff.

 

It's a bit too gamey for PnP (but that's what a DM is for), but it would fit into a video game just fine.

 

Mage the Ascension ( a part of World of Darkness PnP) had similiar mechanics.

 

Maintaining one buff per character or one buff per party would be great and it would make buffing a real tactical decision instead of no brainer.

Pre buffing wouldn't be an issue if you cannot stack buffs and if buffs would be more versatile. 

 

I'd be fine with something like this. I never want CRPGs to return to the IE engine style of prebuffing which was just brainless and tedious and just involved going through the same list of spells at every damn fight.

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The main issue is because a lot of people think it's bad for game balance.

 

In short: if you allow prebuffing, then you either A) balance everything with that in mind, punishing all those who don't want to go trought the tedious (and rather brainless) routine of prebuffing before every fight, or B) balance everything as if it didn't exist, which would make fights trivially easy when you do prebuff.

That's just your assumption unless you can source it to a developer saying so.

 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66073-new-pc-gamer-interview-with-josh/

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The main issue is because a lot of people think it's bad for game balance.

 

In short: if you allow prebuffing, then you either A) balance everything with that in mind, punishing all those who don't want to go trought the tedious (and rather brainless) routine of prebuffing before every fight, or B) balance everything as if it didn't exist, which would make fights trivially easy when you do prebuff.

That's just your assumption unless you can source it to a developer saying so.

 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66073-new-pc-gamer-interview-with-josh/

 

 

So there we have it. The same silly argument, right from Sawyer: "Enabling players to pre-buff = they HAVE TO DO IT omg". Utter nonsense. And because of this one nonsensical argument, I will always feel like I'm the one getting ambushed, no matter how hard I try to get 'the drop' on an enemy in any encounter. Poor way of implementing more choice for usage of 'combat opportunity'.

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Honestly, one of the things I hated most of NWN was the 2 minute pre-buffing before every combat. It felt dull and redundant, yet you felt forced to do it to have realistic chances to beat every encounter. Bull's Strengthx5, Bear's Endurancex5, Barkskinx5, Mage Armorx5, Spell Resistancex5, Freedom of Movemenx5 zzzzzz...... 

 

I like this better, where combats are balanced around the party starting fights debuffed and using those buffs as a strategical resource rather than a mandatory condition to win.

Edited by Emerwyn
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"I don't think LGBT people want to murder you, even though the gamergate people tend to do nasty **** like stalk and swat them"

 

They've written articles about how I am dead and how they want to kill me and how that's a good thing.  They write things like #killallmen. They threaten to send thugs after me. Yeah, those most certainly want to murder me. Also, FYI, SJWs have stalked and harassed women and have swatted pro GGers and then brag about how it's a good thing. So, yeah, both sides have their mega douches though most pro GGers aren't into supporting that stuff while SJWs are pro harassing, bullying, and agtacking female game devlioeprs who don't agree with them.

 

 

Anyways, on topic.

 

All spells should be allowed to cast whenever and wherever. The artificial limit is just plain stupid. Most of them only last a minute or less so you really can't waste too much time mass buffing anyways or you will lose them.

 

 

 

"Honestly, one of the things I hated most of NWN was the 2 minute pre-buffing before every combat."

 

A) Don't rest every 2 seconds and you wouldn't need to spam pre buffs every fight. L0L

 

B) Many NWN buff spells last a long time so you should be able to do it quick and not worry about it til you rest  (don't rest every 2 seconds x2).

 

C) You shouldn't need to buff pre every fight since wasting spells like that against easy enemies is DUMB.

 

D) If you spam memorizing buff spells you are limiting your offensive spells and other useful ones.

Edited by Volourn
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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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The main issue is because a lot of people think it's bad for game balance.

 

In short: if you allow prebuffing, then you either A) balance everything with that in mind, punishing all those who don't want to go trought the tedious (and rather brainless) routine of prebuffing before every fight, or B) balance everything as if it didn't exist, which would make fights trivially easy when you do prebuff.

That's just your assumption unless you can source it to a developer saying so.

 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66073-new-pc-gamer-interview-with-josh/

 

 

There's a little vindictive **** of a gnome inside of me that giggles every time someone rolls their eyes and asks for a source, and then someone slaps them with one.

 

That said, though, Sawyer's using the same flawed reasoning as is being used in this thread. The Combat Only ability state was a bad idea from theory to practice, and while he talks about choices in combat, PoE in general is not reactive at all - the buffs you use are the same you're going to use the next battle, and the next, and so on and so forth.

 

He also caps it off with the mention of choice, the choice to cast a buff instead of a fireball, or a lightning bolt. Which is one of the primary arguments that is being used in favour of abolishing the "Combat Only" state, and allow pre-buffing (along with solving a lot of related issues, not the last the discussion as to what constitutes a "buff" in the context of the game; Zealous Charge does, but not Zealous Focus; Faith & Conviction? Why? The Rogue's Invisbility Talent Ability? Why?).

 

Which is the fact that when you choose to use a buff before the start of combat, you are expending a finite amount of time, effort, and a limited resource. To me, that's the very definition of a meaningful choice. Do I use this now, or later? Do I initiate combat with this, or that? Should I save X or Y until later? Will I need this effect now, and is it worth one of my offensive spells?

 

And so on and so forth.

 

Honestly, one of the things I hated most of NWN was the 2 minute pre-buffing before every combat. It felt dull and redundant, yet you felt forced to do it to have realistic chances to beat every encounter. Bulls Strengthx6, Bear's Endurancex6, Barkskinx6, Mage Armorx6, Spell Resistancex6, Freedom of Movemenx6, Zzzzzz...... 

 

I like this better, where combats are balanced around the party starting fights debuffed and using those buffs as a resource rather than a mandatory condition to win.

 

Same tired argument that has been addressed twice. Just because the IE games (and the NWN games, because they're based largely on the same ruleset) did something bad, does not mean that this is bad in all games. To me, this is basically like saying that Arcanum had bad combat, so combat in games is bad. Or if you want to get more granular, Arcanum's turn-based system was questionable, so turn-based as a system is bad. Necromancy was a terrible school in BG2, so Necromancy was terrible in Mask of the Betrayer.

 

No.

 

 

Wail of the Bansheeeeeeeeeeeeee, hoooooooooooooooo!

 

 

Like Volourn says, most buffs last (I would say much) shorter than 1 minute (I have a hard time even thinking of one that is that long).

 

So saying that you don't want to spend 2 minutes pre-buffing.. well, if you would spend 2 minutes (or even 1 minute, honestly) pre-buffing in PoE, you're an idiot and deserve to walk back to the inn in shame to rest and re-buy camping supplies every hour.

 

And that's right now, today, before we've even considered rebalancing buffing based on the fact that you can pre-buff. If you would remove the restrictions this second, these arguments would be valid; now, if we instead assume this as a basic part of the system, and balance the spells with this in mind, what then?

Edited by Luckmann
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Honestly, one of the things I hated most of NWN was the 2 minute pre-buffing before every combat. It felt dull and redundant, yet you felt forced to do it to have realistic chances to beat every encounter. Bulls Strengthx6, Bear's Endurancex6, Barkskinx6, Mage Armorx6, Spell Resistancex6, Freedom of Movemenx6, Zzzzzz...... 

 

I like this better, where combats are balanced around the party starting fights debuffed and using those buffs as a resource rather than a mandatory condition to win.

 

I won't tire of pointing out that in PoE buffs are *not* mandatory nor would they suddenly become mandatory if you could cast them before combat. Therefore: no valid point.

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All spells should be allowed to cast whenever and wherever. The artificial limit is just plain stupid. Most of them only last a minute or less so you really can't waste too much time mass buffing anyways or you will lose them.

QFT.

 

There is absolutely no good reason for it to be otherwise in an RPG game, unless it's a story element that makes sense as to why spell X can't be cast. ie: Superman's powers are diminished around kryptonite.

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There's a lot of words ITT but not that much beef. The whole thing could be summarized in about three paragraphs.

 

Also @glenn3e I do get the impression that your side isn't actually addressing the counterarguments our side is making. Namely, that the combination of short durations and limited resting in and of themselves eliminate rote pre-buffing as an efficient strategy, making the combat-only limitation unnecessary.

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D&D games of later iterations simply made most spells last only a short duration only and GM limited the resting by making sure there were downsides to doing it and you have to live with the consequences of your decisions. More than one party met their demise by resting in a wrong place and getting ravaged by a random encounter or ambush when their resources were not regained yet.

 

Here the first one is true and second one is not. I`d be fine with pre-buffing if rests and thus buff spells or spells in general were actually a limited resource.

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Uh... rests are a limited resource. You get two camping supplies on Hard, plus whatever you pick up on the way. If you're careless with your spells, you'll find yourself backtracking a lot (just see the whaaing about it in several threads here). 

 

(OTOH if you're not careless with your spells, 2 supplies + whatever you find is plenty.)

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Best solution:

 

Make a toggle button in the options that permits/forbids prebuffing.   In this way people who are absolutely unable to prevent themselves can toggle it off so they can be forced to resist temptation.    Of course, what would stop them from becoming frustrated and turning the prebuffs back on?   Simple.   Once it is toggled off, it will become a permanent setting until the game is reinstalled.

 

Totally serious here.   No, I mean it!  Really, really, serious!   You think I'm kidding?

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Uh... rests are a limited resource. You get two camping supplies on Hard, plus whatever you pick up on the way. If you're careless with your spells, you'll find yourself backtracking a lot (just see the whaaing about it in several threads here). 

 

(OTOH if you're not careless with your spells, 2 supplies + whatever you find is plenty.)

No they are not. Rests are unlimited because the game does not punish or ban you from going back to a village or city and buy more of them.

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Uh... rests are a limited resource. You get two camping supplies on Hard, plus whatever you pick up on the way. If you're careless with your spells, you'll find yourself backtracking a lot (just see the whaaing about it in several threads here). 

 

(OTOH if you're not careless with your spells, 2 supplies + whatever you find is plenty.)

No they are not. Rests are unlimited because the game does not punish or ban you from going back to a village or city and buy more of them.

 

Having to trudge back in shame to the inn is punishment enough for me.

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Best solution:

 

Make a toggle button in the options that permits/forbids prebuffing.   In this way people who are absolutely unable to prevent themselves can toggle it off so they can be forced to resist temptation.    Of course, what would stop them from becoming frustrated and turning the prebuffs back on?   Simple.   Once it is toggled off, it will become a permanent setting until the game is reinstalled.

 

Totally serious here.   No, I mean it!  Really, really, serious!   You think I'm kidding?

 

Or, perhaps more a little more practical, a feature that cannot be turned off without starting a new game, like Path of the Damned or Trial of Iron.

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