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Wizard's spells odd damage design.

wizard game mechanics combat balance

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#61
tnc

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Your argument that fan of flames being the only useful level 1 spell is just ridiculous. Blind effect anyone ? The most op level 1 effect that you can use whole game for huge benefit? Or eldricth aim that lets you paralyze the STRONGEST enemy in the game easily? Maybe you should play the game a bit more and learn all the mechanics. Debuffs/disables>elemental damage especially on harder modes. There's a little thing called DR in this game and it doesn't help against disables :)))

 

That being said fan of flames has a bit high damage for its level but i suspect they made it that way so we can actually kill the phantoms/shades at start lol. Let's face it those fights would've been pain in the ass without it.



#62
Vadász

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The problem is that after all this talk all we are gonna get is a nerf to FoF.



#63
Dongom

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The problem is that after all this talk all we are gonna get is a nerf to FoF.

 

Nah Obsidian can't be that blind, others do better AOE and they know it.



#64
BugsVendor

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Your argument that fan of flames being the only useful level 1 spell is just ridiculous. 

 

Seriously.

 

Please re read the topic name and my original post. I never said anything like that.

 

My point is that considering damage focused spells FoF is a clear winner.

 

I was wondering why is that the aoe spell deals more dmg per target than a targeted spell and is easier to hit because rolls vs reflex rather than deflection.



#65
Dongom

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Okay I put my over-seer items on and off it seems i was bugged.  The range on FoF is pretty huge, but even then I can't hit everything and by the time I get in proper range my gunners can annihilate most things.



#66
tnc

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Your argument that fan of flames being the only useful level 1 spell is just ridiculous. 

 

Seriously.

 

Please re read the topic name and my original post. I never said anything like that.

 

My point is that considering damage focused spells FoF is a clear winner.

 

I was wondering why is that the aoe spell deals more dmg per target than a targeted spell and is easier to hit because rolls vs reflex rather than deflection.

 

 

Maybe it should be used on a low deflection target ? Such as a really dangerous caster(oh wait they have low deflection most of the time!) that you need to use a single target spell on ? The fact that different spells target different defenses is a great thing because it keeps your wizard on maximum effectiveness when you cast the right spells. Btw i don't think you're playing on PotD, there's no way you can cast fan of flames twice and win the fights :p Guess you're exaggerating to prove your own point.



#67
Xionanx

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Your argument that fan of flames being the only useful level 1 spell is just ridiculous. 

 

Seriously.

 

Please re read the topic name and my original post. I never said anything like that.

 

My point is that considering damage focused spells FoF is a clear winner.

 

I was wondering why is that the aoe spell deals more dmg per target than a targeted spell and is easier to hit because rolls vs reflex rather than deflection.

 

 

Yeah, thats been answered already, but to be perfectly clear:  There is NO reason beyond poor system design, play testing, and balancing.

 

Thats it in a nut shell.  Now.. if you are wondering WHY there was poor play testing and balancing.. I can speculate:

 

There was like NO "Design Paper" made for spell performance metrics, meaning all the spells were made by simply "Winging It" and then adjusted based on how the developers "Felt" they were being used and/or performing; rather then using solid MATH based metrics to determine spell damage.

 

For instance, lets take the minor missile spell, and use it as a "Math" metric for making other spells.

 

Minor Missile (unmodified by stats, grazes, crits, etc, just the base) does 1D10+9 Damage per missile.  Each Missile is effected by DR.  Each Missile gets a separate attack Roll.  Hits a single target.

Max Damage to a Single Target = 19x3 = 57 Damage 

 

Now, lets use that as a baseline for making an AoE.  Assuming we want the AoE to be equal we have a few options:

Set Amount of damage done to Area, split evenly among targets in the area no matter how many targets there are.  IE, the AoE will do 3D10+27 Damage, split among all targets affected, meaning the more targets the less damage each target takes, but this also means that if there is only 1 target IT takes the full max potential of 57 Damage.. Just like the minor missile spell.

 

This give you the same damage, but now you have the "utility" of splitting that damage among multiple targets.  But wait, what about the attack rolls?  Say there were 3 targets in that area, each had a separate attack roll to take their portion of the damage.  IE, the damage is split BEFORE rolls are made, and only dealt in appropriate portions.

 

Now, both of those abilities are "Equal" they have the same effect, do the same damage, so why would you use one over the other?  Well, thats where the AoE Range and Target Range of the spells come into play.  Its also about how many targets are going to be effected.

 

If both spells are going to hit 1 target, then the missile spell is better.  Why?  because 3 chances to hit is better then 1, or worse, depending on your accuracy.  If you have low accuracy, its safer to use the missile for 3 chances to do at least SOME damage, but if you have high accuracy its better to use the AoE for a single attack roll for more damage.  but what about DR?  Again, if the target has low or NO DR, and accuracy is equal, then missiles is better since you are more likely going to score more damage overall.. but if the target has HIGH DR 20+, then the AoE is better because it does larger "Single" damage.

 

So there you go.. two spells, same damage, balanced, USING MATH.  Both has situations where one is preferable to the other.

 

But.. since PoE didn't do that, and went with "traditional" "winging it" spell designs, a LOT of the spells do not balance out mathematically,  with some spells being clearly superior in almost all situations.



#68
Wolken3156

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Only damage spells. Only wizard. There is a few, but the aoe one is best in 99% of the situations. Seems weird to me that aoe spell has higher damage than single target ones. And it has range advantage over the spells that require a touch.

Jolting Touch actually is pretty good... as a scroll or weapon effect. For some reason the grimoire version does less damage than the scroll or spellbinded weapon versions. Sunless Grasp though, does have very limited applications... even if you're running a melee wizard.

 

As for the missile spells, they're pretty garbage. They do have short casting times, but this is the class with Deleterious Alacrity of Motion. That spell alone makes Wizards cast times virtually instant anyway.

 



First, it's not 99% of situations. If enemies have mingled with your group or your tank is holding them at a choke point, FoF is usually not the way to go and this happens quite often. Second, yes, the single target, pure damage Wizard spells are pretty bad. I'm not sure what the reasoning behind this was; I guess they just don't want you to play a Wizard that way.

dBTaEOom.jpg

Look at the size of that safe zone. Its a pretty damn safe spell to cast. Granted I stacked a lot of Intelligence stuff (You can see my resting bonus), but yeah, with a lot of intelligence AoE spells become very safe to cast.

 

 

 

I have overseeing ring/chest and its not even half that big..wtf! 

 

Well... it was an INT + 4 resting bonus =/

 

If both spells are going to hit 1 target, then the missile spell is better.  Why?  because 3 chances to hit is better then 1, or worse, depending on your accuracy.  If you have low accuracy, its safer to use the missile for 3 chances to do at least SOME damage, but if you have high accuracy its better to use the AoE for a single attack roll for more damage.  but what about DR?  Again, if the target has low or NO DR, and accuracy is equal, then missiles is better since you are more likely going to score more damage overall.. but if the target has HIGH DR 20+, then the AoE is better because it does larger "Single" damage.

While the theory is sound, the only problem is that the missiles spells target Deflection, which is usually the target's highest defense stat. On the other hand Fan of Flames targets Reflex which is usually lower than Deflection. As another aside, Chill Fog targets Fortitude which also usually lower than Deflection on most targets. So if you have low accuracy, generally those two spells are better anyway. Also each individual missile has their own separate DR reduction. Against any enemy with DR (Which is nearly everything), those missiles are doing pitiful damage.

 

What they really should've done was make them deal raw damage. Then it would somewhat make more sense that you're casting a spell that is attacking a common defense type.



#69
Xionanx

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Wasn't meant to be a side by side comparison of actual spells in game, just a demonstration on how balance could have been done using a set of rules as the foundation.



#70
Eleshar_Vermillion

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I agree with the OP... Being on level 6 (end of first chapter) I have difficulties using other spells. Fan of flames is usually the way to go - more or less sure way of distributing significant amounts of damage to a large number of targets that are reasonably far from the caster. The other spells are much more situational and often very risky and with questionable usability.

 

1) Their range is usually god-awful compared to FoF. Ok, I may be exagerating a little bit but the range is usually shorter and we are talking about ranges so short that it activates the positioning algorithms of the enemies, which, considering the fact the most of the time the group is largely outnumbered, produces cataclysmic results (e.g.: my wizard closes in to put a debuff on a few enemies; one of the enemies disengages from my tank... the tank is engaging this enemy uses an attack of opportunity and then... decides to follow the repositioning target, disengaging from a group of several other enemies and being put down promptly as a result... now my wizard needs to deal on a very short notice with a close single enemy while being in the middle of a casting of a debuff on a group that is no longer on the place he is aiming at...)

 

2) their effects are insignificant - I am fully aware that reducing deflection by those 24 points by blinding an enemy is an accomplishment, in reality the usefulness is questionable, even if I hit multiple targets (which I wont because the AoE is incomensurable to FoF), whats is the point? my only consistent damage dealers are the tank (Edér) who can attack only so many times due to having a heavy armour and Chanter (Kana) who is fighting the stragglers and trying not to go down, so before an affected target is killed off, the debuff just expires.

 

While there may be uses for most of the spells, for me it is just not worth the associated risks and uncertainties... it is just safer substract 3-4 significant chunks of health from a large group of enemies by casting 2 FoFs by 2 mages (as was pointed out - actually killing enemies is also a very efficient crowd control).







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