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Wizard's spells odd damage design.

wizard game mechanics combat balance

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#21
Tigranes

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Flames isn't always the answer when you're on Hard/POTD and Expert Mode. The AOE on Flames fans out pretty quickly, so if you're in a chokepoint and one of your characters is standing next to the mage but maybe one step ahead, you're going to kill him/her instantly on earlier levels.

 

 

 

 

Guys, he said damage in the title.

Well, consider the following:

 

Prone enemies have -10 deflection

Blind enemies have -24 deflection

 

How much more often is your party going to be hitting/critting against enemies that are blind and prone? All thanks to your mage.

 

 

Why bother blinding them when you can just cast 2 fans of flames and finish the whole encounter ?

 

 

The more party members you have and the lower the difficulty this will be more true of everything. Level 3 PC Rogue & Alroth in Eothas Temple right now on POTD, and if I don't act quickly to disable them with blind or whatever, Alroth won't be alive to cast two flames, especially given interrupts.



#22
BugsVendor

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One of the solutions that comes to mind with Fans of Flames is to get rid or greatly reduce the safe zone in it's area.

 

I think it's too big and in too many situations you are in clear.

 

This spell would make much more sense if you really had to damage both your companions and the enemies.



#23
Dongom

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One of the solutions that comes to mind with Fans of Flames is to get rid or greatly reduce the safe zone in it's area.

 

I think it's too big and in too many situations you are in clear.

 

This spell would make much more sense if you really had to damage both your companions and the enemies.

 

Have you seen the foe-only AOE druid and cipher can put out?.......

Even their all-targets AOE have easier targeting than FoF.... 

 

C'mon now.


Edited by Dongom, 05 April 2015 - 01:00 PM.


#24
dirigible

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One of the solutions that comes to mind with Fans of Flames is to get rid or greatly reduce the safe zone in it's area.

 

I think it's too big and in too many situations you are in clear.

 

This spell would make much more sense if you really had to damage both your companions and the enemies.

I would never use Fan of Flames if I had to nuke my party to use it.



#25
BugsVendor

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Flames isn't always the answer when you're on Hard/POTD and Expert Mode. The AOE on Flames fans out pretty quickly, so if you're in a chokepoint and one of your characters is standing next to the mage but maybe one step ahead, you're going to kill him/her instantly on earlier levels.

 

 

 

 

Guys, he said damage in the title.

Well, consider the following:

 

Prone enemies have -10 deflection

Blind enemies have -24 deflection

 

How much more often is your party going to be hitting/critting against enemies that are blind and prone? All thanks to your mage.

 

 

Why bother blinding them when you can just cast 2 fans of flames and finish the whole encounter ?

 

 

The more party members you have and the lower the difficulty this will be more true of everything. Level 3 PC Rogue & Alroth in Eothas Temple right now on POTD, and if I don't act quickly to disable them with blind or whatever, Alroth won't be alive to cast two flames, especially given interrupts.

 

I disagree. I play on PoD and I find it extremely easy to use the FoF.

 

Even with a tank in the door you can stand right next to him and get most of the enemies behind a door casting it so that the straight line of the half circle is perpendicular to the door.



#26
BugsVendor

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One of the solutions that comes to mind with Fans of Flames is to get rid or greatly reduce the safe zone in it's area.

 

I think it's too big and in too many situations you are in clear.

 

This spell would make much more sense if you really had to damage both your companions and the enemies.

I would never use Fan of Flames if I had to nuke my party to use it.

 

 

Why not ? It's all about gain / loss balance.

 

Imagine you have only a tank and a wizard left.All the enemies are attacking your full hp tank.

 

You cast 2 FoF and fight is over.



#27
Emptiness

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-10 accuracy is significant unless your enemy's accuracy is so high they they will crit you every time even with -10 accuracy (because it will mean that 10% of their attacks will do less damage than they would otherwise do) or so low that your enemy is incapable of even grazing you (in which case casting any spell is a waste...just beat them to death with a spoon and save your spells for worthy foes).



#28
Caerdon

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One of the solutions that comes to mind with Fans of Flames is to get rid or greatly reduce the safe zone in it's area.

 

I think it's too big and in too many situations you are in clear.

 

This spell would make much more sense if you really had to damage both your companions and the enemies.

 

How would you do that? The safe zone is determined by the caster's INT.


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#29
Dongom

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One of the solutions that comes to mind with Fans of Flames is to get rid or greatly reduce the safe zone in it's area.

 

I think it's too big and in too many situations you are in clear.

 

This spell would make much more sense if you really had to damage both your companions and the enemies.

I would never use Fan of Flames if I had to nuke my party to use it.

 

 

Why not ? It's all about gain / loss balance.

 

Imagine you have only a tank and a wizard left.All the enemies are attacking your full hp tank.

 

You cast 2 FoF and fight is over.

 

 

But two other caster classes already do considerably better AOE DPS without hurting the team or having to waste time positioning.

 

So I'm not seeing the issue.



#30
dirigible

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Why not ? It's all about gain / loss balance.

 

Imagine you have only a tank and a wizard left.All the enemies are attacking your full hp tank.

 

You cast 2 FoF and fight is over.

I generally don't build a strategy around having my entire team dead.

 

Rather than have Fan of Flames in my spellbook, I'll have some other spell which doesn't require a tpk before it becomes useful.



#31
Tigranes

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Flames isn't always the answer when you're on Hard/POTD and Expert Mode. The AOE on Flames fans out pretty quickly, so if you're in a chokepoint and one of your characters is standing next to the mage but maybe one step ahead, you're going to kill him/her instantly on earlier levels.

 

 

 

 

Guys, he said damage in the title.

Well, consider the following:

 

Prone enemies have -10 deflection

Blind enemies have -24 deflection

 

How much more often is your party going to be hitting/critting against enemies that are blind and prone? All thanks to your mage.

 

 

Why bother blinding them when you can just cast 2 fans of flames and finish the whole encounter ?

 

 

The more party members you have and the lower the difficulty this will be more true of everything. Level 3 PC Rogue & Alroth in Eothas Temple right now on POTD, and if I don't act quickly to disable them with blind or whatever, Alroth won't be alive to cast two flames, especially given interrupts.

 

I disagree. I play on PoD and I find it extremely easy to use the FoF.

 

Even with a tank in the door you can stand right next to him and get most of the enemies behind a door casting it so that the straight line of the half circle is perpendicular to the door.

 

 

With expert mode, or not?

 

Maybe when I use it more I'll get more used to it. I also find Aloth misses with it quite frequently.

 

Besides, Aloth setting everyone blind or prone is often a more surefire way to get my rogue to stab them all in the face 80 times a second, while not taking damage.



#32
BugsVendor

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This topic has been moved ?



#33
Asmodean-

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What do people have against Wizards? lol. They're pretty gimped as it is, in this. And I don't mean, "huehuehue, but yu can save al ur spells for a baws, then eazy kill pwuueew".

 

I mean from an enjoyment factor, in comparison to other classes. And especially in comparison to other games' Wizard/ pure caster class.

 

You obtain all of these cool spells, you hardly ever get to enjoy, because you've to "save them" for "when you'll need them", or basically the rapture. Plus the Idea of the Grimoire from an RP perspective, is really cool, and I like it, but all it effectively does is increase clunkiness. Takes the fun out of acquiring spells, and experimenting, etc.

 

"Nope, I've only got a few uses, gotta save them, and spam the same niché spells over, and over". I love Wizard/sorcerer classes, in general. And I'm also enjoying this game a lot so far, but I do think that the Wizard class was poorly done (in theory it works fine, but not in practice so much).


Edited by Asmodean-, 05 April 2015 - 06:30 PM.

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#34
Malitias

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There's no sense in using a debuff if you might as well just kill the enemy with the other spell. Killing alot of enemies fast is good crowd control too.



#35
Dongom

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There's no sense in using a debuff if you might as well just kill the enemy with the other spell. Killing alot of enemies fast is good crowd control too.

 

Cipher and Druid do that quite a bit more effectively and with less risk. 

 

CC is still Wizard's true role and strongest capability. 



#36
Malitias

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Cipher and Druid do that quite a bit more effectively and with less risk. 

 

CC is still Wizard's true role and strongest capability. 

 

That's true, but the wizards CC capabilities are not that much higher than a ciphers from my experience. Especially until they reach lvl 9. Their damage is crazy low compared to them, yes, but in the beginning FoF will nuke most enemies.
Not everyone is playing PotD where enemy stats are increased. On lower difficulties it'll kill stuff quite effectively.
As I said, Ciphers and Druids damage is alot higher, but that doesn't mean a Wizard should be restricted to using CC. He is being advertised as a versatile spellcaster and I don't see much useful versatility here so far.

If I'm correct the thread is about exactly that. ^^ Wizard damage being too low compared to those 2.



#37
Dongom

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Cipher and Druid do that quite a bit more effectively and with less risk. 

 

CC is still Wizard's true role and strongest capability. 

 

That's true, but the wizards CC capabilities are not that much higher than a ciphers from my experience. Especially until they reach lvl 9. Their damage is crazy low compared to them, yes, but in the beginning FoF will nuke most enemies.
Not everyone is playing PotD where enemy stats are increased. On lower difficulties it'll kill stuff quite effectively.
As I said, Ciphers and Druids damage is alot higher, but that doesn't mean a Wizard should be restricted to using CC. He is being advertised as a versatile spellcaster and I don't see much useful versatility here so far.

If I'm correct the thread is about exactly that. ^^ Wizard damage being too low compared to those 2.

 

 

Cipher is on a different level than all other classes.



#38
Caerdon

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You can't argue that there's something wrong with wizard by comparing it to cipher, that just destroys the whole foundation of the argument. It's cipher that's broken, not wizard.


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#39
tenfrith'ssavourypie

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It's funny to see so many people saying FoF has a high risk, my personal strategy for almost the entire game has been to just flame the tank. 1) walk Eder into a clump of enemies, 2) walk my main and Aloth slightly behind and flame everything, 3) repeat flame, 4) collect loot. It really takes off at level 5 once you can grab vigorous defense. Silly mages couldn't actually hit Eder if they tried. And they have, hundreds of times. Guy doesn't even get grazed without a reflex debuff. Of course, the mages on the other hand will instagib each other if the positioning gets too sloppy. This is on PotD with a non-bugged Eder. It's a bit silly, honestly.

 

I can't comment on mage balance vs druid or cipher as I haven't mained them yet, but in the context of other mage spells I would argue that FoF could use a slight alteration. I like that it's so powerful, damage wise (devs have done a great job keeping at least some spells from each level relevant throughout the game), but it outclasses so many other damage options and all the other level 1 spells that something needs to change. Possible changes from best to worst:

 

Better encounter and monster design - why is burn damage basically the best damage type throughout the whole game? Why are 90+% of encounters pure tank and spank (for which FoF's positioning disadvantages are irrelevant)?

 

Buff the competing level 1 spells. Most of the single target alternatives do less damage and do not have strong enough debuffing effects to compensate. They're also riskier to use: any aoe on a group of enemies is almost guaranteed to be of some use because of multiple hit rolls, but single target spells are often completely wasted by a miss, particularly at low levels when wasting a spell is particularly detrimental. I think this risk is actually a bigger problem than either the low damage or effect. Increased accuracy on these spells might help. Better effects might help too (priests can inflict stuck at level 1 with halt, which is ridiculously powerful - halt doesn't do damage, but also isn't a touch attack). Slicken probably needs to be completely reworked at this point, the old version was lol, the new version is terrible (not sure why so many are still supporting it - am I missing something?).

 

Buff the competing nuke spells. As others have mentioned, the missile spells are essentially all completely outclassed by everything else. Like much of the itemization problems they seem to have suffered from the DR changes before release. They need better damage, possibly in the form of increased DR reduction, increased accuracy, or even auto-hit. Fireball could use an aoe buff considering it usually hits the same number of enemies as FoF but does far less damage (1 to 1, fireball does have its uses but its more of a niche spell than FoF).

 

Nerf FoF. Last resort. I wouldn't want to see the damage reduced, but honestly one idea that might actually make for more interesting strategy would be to block damage behind targets. It would actually make sense and could even be tactically interesting, eg when a ghost teleports into your group you could flame into it without hitting the squishy caster directly behind it. However that would require there to actually be more tactically interesting encounters in the game, of which there are few, otherwise it would be too hard a nerf.


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#40
Infares

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You're mistaken. -10 ACC debuff is not "minor," it's a very big deal indeed. Fan of Flames is indeed great, but so is Chill Fog (can be cast from behind your front line), that Ice Blades thing which also Hobbles, Slicken even after the nerf, Thrust of Tattered Veils if you're facing a caster, and Eldritch Aim if you're targeting a (hard-to-hit) boss.

 

(It's the level 2 spells I'm having trouble with. Curse of Blackened Sight is awesome, Fetid Caress sometimes useful, but I haven't had much luck with Rolling Flame, Binding Web is obviously worse than Slicken or that Ice Blades thing that also hobbles, and the gishy self-buffs/self-defense spells are a waste of a cast and a spell slot.)

Miasma of Dull-Mindedness does the following: 

-30 Interrupt
-30 Concentration
-20 Deflection
-20 Reflex
-40 Will
-60% AoE
-50% Skill Duration







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