Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!

  • Please log in to reply
199 replies to this topic

#21
catmorbid

catmorbid

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 40 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

I've played for 50 hours and encountered only one bug (certain SFX not triggering properly). Comparing that to my experience with KOTOR2 (ran into a game-breaking bug requiring I start over from the beginning... twice, among other issues) and New Vegas (which is so buggy I've never been able to go more than 10 hours with a save being irrevocably broken), I don't find the need to be very critical of Eternity. Insofar as I have seen, it is--by far--the most stable game they've ever produced.

 

Raedric's hold bug was about critical as it gets, and looking at the tech support forum it seems quite a few had it, and that's just those bothering to write on forums - not everyone doe. Then there's, broken stats buffs (bonuses accumulate), broken items etc. Granted, it could be worse.

 

I don't want to point fingers at anyone, but the word "troll" came to mind as soon as I read the OP. I don't think a person with some experience with programming beyond the "Hello world" stage would dare to say programming a game is so easy, that Obsidian's programmers are obviously bad at what they do

I never said it's easy to make this kind of game. I said some of the problems appear like they'd be very easy to fix, and in fact prevent alltogether with a bit oversight when designing the software. And my question was more to propose my theory that designer and coder talent don't quite mix well in Obsidian. You see, ideally you'd have designers who are coders. That way they can code themselves whatever they design, but nowadays that usually isn't the case, unless we're talking about smaller indie studios. Anyway, i'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but even though I really appreciate the guys, I think I still have the right to question their products and critique them, no?

 

 

And I'm not even talking about all the UI related business here. E.g. why did they completely disregard the awesome mouse-drinven context-based UI in TOEE for a 20 year old mouse-driven awkwardness? (Granted, a lot of general things are done right) Ok, I haven't followed the game throughout the beta, so I've no clue what kind of ****storm took place there, but OBVIOUSLY there's lots of room to improve, but that's partly due to trying to follow Baldur's Gate too much, which in UI (and game system)-wise isn't the best possibl example...

 

The Temple of Elemental Evil had a very bad UI. You had to repeatedly keep clicking just to know what you options were. If this is the sort of thing you're criticizing Obsidian for, I'm glad they're not listening to you.

 

I don't see how much better it's having to constantly move the cursor bottom left away from the focus area on the screen, then back again whenever you want to point at something. Anyway, in my opinion TOEE's radial menu was a pretty intuitive way to handle lots of menus, at least lot better than what this is now in PoE.


  • Luj1 likes this

#22
Quetzalcoatl

Quetzalcoatl

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 276 posts

I don't see how much better it's having to constantly move the cursor bottom left away from the focus area on the screen, then back again whenever you want to point at something. Anyway, in my opinion TOEE's radial menu was a pretty intuitive way to handle lots of menus, at least lot better than what this is now in PoE.

You would rather have radial menu's obscuring the combat? And repeated clicking to perform basic tasks? And when you issue orders, you usually have the game paused, so it's not a problem that you're looking at another part of the screen.



#23
Luj1

Luj1

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 428 posts

 

You would rather have radial menu's obscuring the combat?

 

 

 

 

Radial menu is a brilliant design, mind you. Worked pretty well in Planescape Torment and Neverwinter Nights (where it was opaque, even better).


Edited by Luj1, 05 April 2015 - 04:15 AM.


#24
Luj1

Luj1

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 428 posts

 

Raedric's hold bug was about critical as it gets,

 

 

I got a black screen there that crashes the game, so I had to manually edit my savegame files to continue. Don't ask. There is also the Sanitarium glitch which comes damn close to game-breaking and ruins your reputation completely in the biggest town. That's unfortunate considering you need reputation in Defiance bay for at least two things - Eder's companion quest and the premium weapons/amor at the Dozen.

 

But no, its more important to remove non-issues from the game because some transvestite demanded so on twitter. Go Josh and Obsidian.

 

EDIT: Not to mention the huge discrepancy between classes. You either take cipher/chanter/druid/fighter and faceroll the game on hard, or you get rogue/monk/ranger/barbarian and get cancer.

Also, the efficiency gap between spells is serious. Some spells are near-useless while specific spells are pretty much required to beat certain mobs.


Edited by Luj1, 05 April 2015 - 04:28 AM.


#25
cdd

cdd

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 33 posts

you say you're a developer yourself... then you should be able to appreciate the insane size and complexity of the state machine that makes up the foundation of a game like this. there are so many interdependencies between different events, dialogue choices and progression paths that the resulting game states are virtually impossible to comprehend in their entirety, let alone test reliably (both isolated and in correlation)

 

P.S.: Obisdian also doesn't have the budget of big AAA publishers to put into extended QA measures, yet these big AAA titles are often very buggy as well at release. go figure


Edited by cdd, 05 April 2015 - 04:19 AM.

  • Hassat Hunter, sorophx and middydj like this

#26
Luj1

Luj1

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 428 posts



 

you say you're a developer yourself... then you should be able to appreciate the insane size and complexity of the state machine that makes up the foundation of a game like this.

 

P.S.: Obisdian also doesn't have the budget

 

 

Wait just a second there. Obsidian raised how much, 4 Million dollars? Up front? And had plenty of time to do it. And has some of the most brilliant minds in the industry like Tim Cain, Feargus Uruqheart, Chris Avellone?? Get real.


Edited by Luj1, 05 April 2015 - 04:32 AM.

  • MistarDurk likes this

#27
Prideaux

Prideaux

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Steam:Ghostlit

Hi! I'm a massive fan of Black Isle / Troika / Obsidian as well as a student majoring in Computer Science, a game hobbyist and an amateur game developer. (Disclaimer)

 

So, my question for today is a very profound one, and one that carries a lot of meaning to me, personally, and especially from a game developer studio perspective: What's wrong with Obsidian?

 

Everything starts with Black Isle and Fallout, which (if you're aware of the story around the production) was a general huge mother****ing mess. After Black Isle was shot down, the general messiness seemed to follow with Troika games, who made a couple of brilliant yet very flawed games. After that, the legacy, thanks to a few key individuals and their ideals, was transferred into what is today Obsidian.

 

Now, as a disclaimer, I have to say, I love everything created by these guys: Black Isle Studios, Troika and Obsidian. BI's slogan: "By gamers, for gamers" is still something I keep as an inspiration very close to my heart every single day (as an unknown amateur developer), and what they created is simply beautiful. However, everything created by this troupe and their derivatives has always been somehow fundamentally wrong: bugged as hell, imbalanced as foobar, illogical as hell.

 

My question is: WTF is wrong with Obsidian? Why can't they make solid products? I know there's a lot of tension between publisher - developer relations, that's always a handful and something for an entirely different discussion, but my presumption here today is that:

There is something wrong with the communication between the designers and the coders in Obsidian?

 

Because at many times it seems I'm playing a game with a beautifully designed world with lots of content and shreds of the designers souls visibly poured into every single detail, yet at other times I'm stumbling upon the very simplistic, childish even, mistakes that could be repaired with some simple programming with a little bit of forethought. Are you guys talking? Is there something between, even though this time (PoE) you were independently funded, and no publisher has a **** to say about yoru game? What's the problem?

 

Now, I'm not blaming anyone, I'm simply tryng to inquire some details about your methods into developing games, and whether there'd be something to improve. No doubt I'm going to get a generic response of "yes, we're constantly improving our methods and processes in all areas", but what I'm really interested in is the actual schizms between the programmers and the designers, since that's what I think is the main reason for this outcome.

 

Anyway, while any perspectives are welcome, obviously I'd rather take on some pov's from the crew.

 

In this your first computer game ever?

 

Everything you say in the OP can easily be said about virtually every game developer around. Honestly I read that in basically every game forum I frequent on every main release. So I have no idea how you can single out these guys.

 

By default the games they make are complex RPG of different styles. This game had a huge beta following so we know that it is not like they didnt test, likewise they postpone the launch a few times, so its not liekt hey were just after the money. JUst look at the launch of Assassin Creed Unity, that game was broken on so many different levels. it should have been delayed for ages, but no those bean counters at Ubisoft forced them to launch in order to make sales. in 25 odd years in gaming I cant really think of a bug free or successful launch of a new RPG. Their complexity can only truly be tested when given to the mass market. If you were truly a gamer you should have learned by now buying a game, ANY game on launch week (or month for some) is just inviting trouble. Once again, I find myself asking, how is this company any worse than others and deserve to be singled out. and how come game forums are now longer full of people talkign about games but full of stuff like this post. SHould new games be perfect at launch, sure, is that ever going to happen, nope.

 

I was personally offended by the OP, constructive criticism is fine, but what you wrote was down right rude and disrespectful.


Edited by Prideaux, 05 April 2015 - 04:41 AM.


#28
sorophx

sorophx

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3917 posts

Wait just a second there. Obsidian raised how much, 4 Million dollars? Up front? And had plenty of time to do it.

if I'm not mistaken, Feargus once went on record saying Obsidian burned through roughly 1 million USD each month. so, 4 million would only fund 4 months of development. everything else had to come out of their own pockets. I imagine this is why they have partnered up with Paradox, they need all the extra money they can get to keep the studio opened



#29
Luj1

Luj1

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 428 posts

 

if I'm not mistaken, Feargus once went on record saying Obsidian burned through roughly 1 million USD each month.

 

 

 

so, 4 million would only fund 4 months of development.

 

 

 

Well how unfortunate. But that's their problem.

 

So what are you saying? They need 1 million dollars per month  ? 18 months = 18 million dollars?   Come on.

 

 

They had plenty of money, plenty of time, and plenty of industry professionals to do this better. 



#30
Sharp_one

Sharp_one

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 777 posts
  • Location:Poland


Wait just a second there. Obsidian raised how much, 4 Million dollars? Up front? And had plenty of time to do it.

if I'm not mistaken, Feargus once went on record saying Obsidian burned through roughly 1 million USD each month. so, 4 million would only fund 4 months of development. everything else had to come out of their own pockets. I imagine this is why they have partnered up with Paradox, they need all the extra money they can get to keep the studio opened

Wait, what? They said that thay didn't took a dime from Paradox. Are you saying that was another lie? Obsidian look worse and worse every day now.
  • Luj1 likes this

#31
cdd

cdd

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 33 posts

Wait just a second there. Obsidian raised how much, 4 Million dollars? Up front? And had plenty of time to do it. And has some of the most brilliant minds in the industry like Tim Cain, Feargus Uruqheart, Chris Avellone?? Get real.

 

4 Million isn't a whole lot in an industry where the budget of major titles is in the triple digit range of Millions


  • DeathQuaker likes this

#32
Luj1

Luj1

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 428 posts

 

Wait just a second there. Obsidian raised how much, 4 Million dollars? Up front? And had plenty of time to do it. And has some of the most brilliant minds in the industry like Tim Cain, Feargus Uruqheart, Chris Avellone?? Get real.

 

4 Million isn't a whole lot in an industry where the budget of major titles is in the triple digit range of Millions

 

 

Duuuuude.. Raising 4 Million of other people's money, up front , in 1 month,  is huuuuge


Edited by Luj1, 05 April 2015 - 05:09 AM.


#33
cdd

cdd

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 33 posts

ok i give up, this poster is obviously trolling


  • Hassat Hunter, Bartimaeus and mashamoshpit like this

#34
Sharp_one

Sharp_one

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 777 posts
  • Location:Poland


Wait just a second there. Obsidian raised how much, 4 Million dollars? Up front? And had plenty of time to do it. And has some of the most brilliant minds in the industry like Tim Cain, Feargus Uruqheart, Chris Avellone?? Get real.

4 Million isn't a whole lot in an industry where the budget of major titles is in the triple digit range of Millions
And why should we care? Obsidian asked for 1 mln, they got 4. No one forced them to ask for so low, they decided by themselve that is appropriate amount. Saying now that 4 times what they asked was too low is insulting to backers. How would the game look if they only got 1mln?

There are one man rpgs that are better more complex and more polished than PoE.

Edited by Sharp_one, 05 April 2015 - 05:30 AM.

  • Luj1 likes this

#35
Prideaux

Prideaux

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Steam:Ghostlit

 

 

Raedric's hold bug was about critical as it gets,

 

 

I got a black screen there that crashes the game, so I had to manually edit my savegame files to continue. Don't ask. There is also the Sanitarium glitch which comes damn close to game-breaking and ruins your reputation completely in the biggest town. That's unfortunate considering you need reputation in Defiance bay for at least two things - Eder's companion quest and the premium weapons/amor at the Dozen.

 

But no, its more important to remove non-issues from the game because some transvestite demanded so on twitter. Go Josh and Obsidian.

 

EDIT: Not to mention the huge discrepancy between classes. You either take cipher/chanter/druid/fighter and faceroll the game on hard, or you get rogue/monk/ranger/barbarian and get cancer.

Also, the efficiency gap between spells is serious. Some spells are near-useless while specific spells are pretty much required to beat certain mobs.

 

 

So you are comparing 1) finding and coding and testing a patch 2) to a quick text fix? And you think each of these have the same weigh and complexity? One of those things can probably be done one handed by someone eating their lunch at the desk.

 

PS its a single player game, balance is completely unimportant. A large pecentage of the players dont care about min/max they play these games for roleplay things. EG I COULD make a group full of ciphers and romp through the game on hard or I can take a balance of class/styles and take my time trying out different and interesting things.

 

PPS I also had the Hold bug where I couldnt exit of of the game (and some other ones) and my first reaction wasnt to skip to twitter or forums and write a damning diatribe about this company being woeful. I merely started a new game to get me interested until the patch came, only in doing so realised I missed a huge chunk of things I should have done first and was 150% better by the time I got to that point. Yes bugs are bad but if you think this game is somehow the 'devil' for them I am sorry but I will have to alugh. No games these days launch anywhere close to perfection and in fact do to their beta they had tested way more than some others (and more broken games) I have played this year.

 

Perspective is a funny old thing.


Edited by Prideaux, 05 April 2015 - 05:12 AM.

  • Hassat Hunter and mashamoshpit like this

#36
Luj1

Luj1

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 428 posts


There are one man rpgs that are better more complex and more polished than PoE.

 

 

 

Frankly I'd say that's overreacting some bit but w/e. I think PoE is a fantastic game. And I'm willing to disregard ALL the bugs....  I just don't get it , how they couldn't make these 11 classes and 13  races  more polished and mutually proportionate . That's my biggest gripe with the game. That Firedorn memorial thing was a shame, but its their shame not mine. I'm not a backer. Maybe I'd be more upset about that If I was one



#37
Luj1

Luj1

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 428 posts

 

So you are comparing 1) finding and coding and testing a patch 2) to a quick text fix?

 

 

 

No I'm not comparing it. I said Obsidian put a text fix (a non-issue) above all the bugs and balance issues. Why? Because a member of a delicate minority was offended?

 

That situation alone is worth 1000 words about Obsidian , their employees and work philosophy. Even if I adore PoE to bits, and I do.


Edited by Luj1, 05 April 2015 - 05:18 AM.

  • Allvaldr likes this

#38
Sharp_one

Sharp_one

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 777 posts
  • Location:Poland

PS its a single player game, balance is completely unimportant.

So we agree that JES wasted most of development time to achieve balance on his sawyerisms?
This is refreshing after months of defending his approach to mechanics in PoE.

Edited by Sharp_one, 05 April 2015 - 05:28 AM.

  • Allvaldr and Luj1 like this

#39
Prideaux

Prideaux

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Steam:Ghostlit

 

 

So you are comparing 1) finding and coding and testing a patch 2) to a quick text fix?

 

 

 

No I'm not comparing it. I said Obsidian put a text fix (a non-issue) above all the bugs and balance issues. Why? Because a member of a delicate minority was offended?

 

That situation alone is worth 1000 words about Obsidian , their employees and work philosophy. Even if I adore PoE to bits, and I do.

 

 

here is a company findings its feet after almost collapsing, in a time when (for better AND worse) political correctness is a huge issue. It makes perfect sense. Companies the world over tackle this problem every day, and not just in gaming but every walk of life. Especially the way twitter trolls work, in fact I dont discount some people were offended but I fail to believe to the mass outrage was done by people truly believing in what they were doing, more just using twitter and social media sadly for the lol's.

 

Likewise I think the 'OMG the game has been censored, they are worse company ever' people in every possible forum are just silly, just a different side of that same social media monster. It says way more about their need to be outraged from <insert whatever reason they demn worthy here> than the event itself. IF the censorship was fundamentally part of the game and required a massive change of focus THEN this outrage would be portionate to the response.


  • mashamoshpit likes this

#40
Luj1

Luj1

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 428 posts

 

 

 

So you are comparing 1) finding and coding and testing a patch 2) to a quick text fix?

 

 

 

No I'm not comparing it. I said Obsidian put a text fix (a non-issue) above all the bugs and balance issues. Why? Because a member of a delicate minority was offended?

 

That situation alone is worth 1000 words about Obsidian , their employees and work philosophy. Even if I adore PoE to bits, and I do.

 

 

here is a company findings its feet after almost collapsing, in a time when (for better AND worse) political correctness is a huge issue. It makes perfect sense. Companies the world over tackle this problem every day, and not just in gaming but every walk of life. Especially the way twitter trolls work, in fact I dont discount some people were offended but I fail to believe to the mass outrage was done by people truly believing in what they were doing, more just using twitter and social media sadly for the lol's.

 

Likewise I think the 'OMG the game has been censored, they are worse company ever' people in every possible forum are just silly, just a different side of that same social media monster. It says way more about their need to be outraged from <insert whatever reason they demn worthy here> than the event itself. IF the censorship was fundamentally part of the game and required a massive change of focus THEN this outrage would be portionate to the response.

 

 

Bro im only saying they should have let it blow over, and meanwhile work of the patches.

 

This whole PR nightmare did 3 things, 1) delayed patch deployment for a day or two, be sure of it,  2) overloaded their servers for a week, 3) given rise to more twitter trolls targeting Obsidian

 

they should have  let it blow over


Edited by Luj1, 05 April 2015 - 05:48 AM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: FalloutPillars of Eternity, Alpha Protocol, SWTOR 2, Neverwinter Nights 2, Arcanum, Baldurs Gate, Baldurs Gate 2, VTM: Bloodlines, Philosophy

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users