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Current status of Monks

monk balance

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#41
Maydawn

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I feel rather strongly that a Monk is currently very incentivized to wear armor, which is very bad for his RP.

I'd like to see something like these added to the game...

Masochistic Anticipation
Monk-only Talent
Passive
Available at level 2
+5 to DR. This bonus is lessened as you use heavier Shields (-2 for Small, -3 for Medium, -4 for Large).

Pauper's Grace
Monk-only Talent
Passive
Available at level 2
+12 to all Defenses. This bonus is lessened as you wear heavier Armor (-3 for Robe, -4 for Padded, -5 for Hide, etc).

 

These are exactly the kind of ideas I had in mind. It makes no sense from an RP standpoint to have monks not wear armor, or just light, and from game mechanics perspective it's handicapping. There should be talents, or base class mechanic to compensate for it. I personally think they should have an innate DR that goes up with levels when wearing no armor. For example the monk would have DR at level 1 as if he wore light armor (3 DR), and by max level would reach 8 DR, like scale armor [If I remember values correctly]. I'd rather not have such mechanics based on talents, as they would feel mandatory to some extent in higher difficulties, and would rather spend talents on more personal playstyle customization, like Modals, Hold the Line [increases number of engaged enemies] and such.



#42
scrotiemcb

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I'm not a huge fan of binary choices, such as "no armor" vs "any armor," which is why I went very sliding-scale with my suggestions.

Also, I think it should be done in the form of optional picks, not automatic abilities. I had no problem making STRONG talents for armorless monks, but if someone wants to play a monk in full Plate, I'm not trying to directly rain on his parade; he can pick something else instead.

I also believe in uneven trades. Hence DR in exchange for Deflection, and vice versa. Keeps things more interesting and less of a math problem. So really I'm very much against giving DR to monks without armor... Give them Deflection instead. (Even makes more sense from RP perspective.)

However, instead of optional talents (even levels), they could be optional abilities (odd levels). Or one each. Whichever.

Edited by scrotiemcb, 12 April 2015 - 01:03 AM.


#43
Furok

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Ok, i think alot of people dont realise that Monk's are late bloomer's, unlike Rogue's and FIghter's that has a fast power curve, monk's need alot of gear and talents to get them going.

However if you look at mid game and onwards there's not alot that can compare to a Monk for single target damage.

 

Allow me to embellish abit, Monk need a decent amount of health to get going but you dont really want to dump alot of points into con because constitution scales horrible, so you want to build a 18+ 10 15+ 10 10 10 -ish build, around level 7-8 your hp/level as well as talents means you are around 150 hp's and you got supporting talents like the lesser wounds talent as well as an assortment of other dps abilities, now if you take 25-30 damage hits its not the end of the world and for each one of these hits you get 3-4 wounds.

This is where the monk starts to outpace the competition, and one big reason for that is that you can fire of 3-4 torments reach / hit you take, and each torments reach will hit 2x for 25-30++ (+50% crush damage on each hit aswell) and turning wheel adds fire damage on top of this as does your additional 20% haste + 25% lightning damage selfbuff (Swift strikes, always lead with this when you decide to start spamming torments!). And its a aoe to boot, and you fire off torments reach faster then any other class can use their abilities.

 

This is just the dps basics, you can focus alot more on cc but the more cc you take the harder it gets to build wounds, the monk is alot like the vanilla fury warrior in another game i wont mention (Slam spam ftw!) aka the more damage you take the more damage you do, its easy to get carried away and overextending but that's why you have a priest with withdraw in the group ;)

 

Monk is by far my personal favorite class when it comes to melee dps.

 

Now the monk struggles for the first 4-5 levels but mid/late game its a monster and even though it requires abit of babysitting even on higher levels i think people base alot of their opinions on the monks first 2-3 levels which is abit of a struggle compared to other melee dps classes.


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#44
kaiki

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Hello :)

 

I know that balance is still being worked on, devs are still getting a TON of feedback a day about pretty much anything, and this is still a work in progress. But there's one thing that's bothering me, and I posted on a couple of related topics about it, but no one seemed to pitch in, and I figured maybe it was just overlooked or something.

 

So even with the bugs, and balancing issues, I really love this game. My only real problem is the current state of monks, and I was wondering maybe I'm the only one feeling that way. Monks are my favorite RPG class. I always picture them in my mind as these awesome martial arts guys, in light / no armor, kicking and punching faces, dodging / soaking hits in a decent manner.

But in this game, they really didn't live up to my expectations. The wounds system sounds awesome on paper, but you have to get hit for it to work. Now, I can theoretically run a monk with full plate armor, but it doesn't feel like it fits the class theme, or the way I picture them in my mind, and running with light / no armor gets me killed too quickly. I can avoid getting hit, but then there's no interactive play to it without wounds.

 

I'd really love it if they had some innate per-level damage reduction, for example starting at 3 DR, and reaching 9 or 10 at max level, so they are roughly equal to a breastplate. [Only when not wearing armor of course]. Maybe a boost to endurance, so they can soak the same damage as an equal level fighter with medium / heavy armor.

 

Anyone else feels the same way ? Or maybe I'm just picturing them differently than the devs ?

 

[I just want to note, I played with a monk on hard, got as far as Defiance Bay quests and gave up eventually, feeling very weak compared to other melee classes. Went with a balanced attributes, no min-maxing, trying to focus on RP as much as possible. Had 14 constitution]

 

I think this is just an issue of you have a different idea, of what a monk class should be, then the devs. Neither is better or worse, just different.

 

As for them seeming weak, I found monks are tough enough to tank while having the ability to burst down monsters with their wound powered powers. They aren't a class where each fight requires lots of active ability usage, like ciphers or wizards, but they don't need to. If you want a through monk build & battle tactics I'd be happy to get into that.



#45
Matt516

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Monks are absolutely godlike. My monk has over double the damage dealt of any of my other characters (save the PC since the personal tab reset bug prevents me from comparing them directly), and that's while wearing full plate armor (sanguine plate for the frenzy). By the time you get transcendent suffering 4, fists have +12 Accuracy (superb) and +9.3 or so damage (better than superb by a huge margin). Their fists beat any other fast weapon in the game, hands down (pun intended). Couple that with the hilarious attack speed buffs they get, as well as the stuns/prone on demand... Monks are crazy good.


Edited by Matt516, 26 May 2015 - 10:19 PM.


#46
peddroelm

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the accuracy from trancendent suffering does :

 

not matter for:

-flaggelant's path (since nothing except char level affects its chance to hit)

 

not work for (most monk special attack to Hit checks) unlike +accuracy on actual weapons (up to -23 accuracy vs specific enemy types AUCH!!) :

- force of anquish (prone)

- stunning blows (stun)

- torment's reach AOE

- enervating blows (weaken)

- rooting pain AOE

 

On top of that, endgame unique superb weapons can get extra enchatments like lash, annihilation, drain , coordinating .. Dual fist loses by a significant margin to endgame unique weapons .. Significant ..

 

////////////////

On topic - monks rule - this is what I use http://forums.obsidi...k/#entry1694269


Edited by peddroelm, 26 May 2015 - 11:08 PM.

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#47
JONNIN

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Well, there are two things going on here.  First, you are imposing your concept of a monk onto this game universe a bit.   Here, a monk is a guy that turns incoming damge into outgoing damage and who can, if he so desires, fight without weapons.    He might also wear full plate mail and haul a 2h axe around. 

 

second.. Armor ... you may need to use something heavier at low levels.  Before the end of act 1,  actually not to long after entering defiance bay, you should be able to score a set of exceptional leather armor, which is good enough to take a monk all the way to the end of the game.   Before you find that, you may have to use a breastplate or such.    If you do not want to use heavy armor early on,  dual wield hatchets until you get to DB and find a suitable light armor.   He could even fight with fist and shield, or hatchet and shield, for a bit.   A heavy shield is not very martial-arts but a buckler type (goes around your wrist and is the size of a dinner plate or so) would flow just fine and make sense in a world where blocking a sword with your arm is unwise.   There is this hat in the first zone that helps tank...

 

Once a monk has high DR (and modest deflection) you have a high dps tank.  They are extremely good but finding the right set of gear for one is more challenging than for other classes like fighters.   Finding the right deflection value is also useful, just enough to not get destroyed and not so much that you don't get any wounds.



#48
Shevek

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Monks are currently awesome. They do not need to be altered.

#49
Hillbillyden

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The Monk was always my favorite pnp and even BG style games type character. I had to pass on them for POE for all the reasons people mentioned but basically it boils down to the devs idea of a monk versus mine and seemingly every other rpg + the vast majority of fantasy fiction since the dawn of time.

 

Not being a min/maxer, I just can't get around the whole martial artist hand to hand specialist that requires and desires taking damage and not avoiding it. This just seems a far more applicable approach to some kinda masochistic tank subclass.



#50
Hillbillyden

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Monks are currently awesome. They do not need to be altered.

If this is the case for you then that's fine but a bunch of other people would like a different ... theme. Even if they add another more traditional Monk class or subclass then I would probably buy it as an dl, if offered.



#51
Shevek

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Monks in this game are only superificially Jackie Chan wanabees. This is a new setting with a slightly different take on numerous archetypes. Just adapt and appreciate what is there. There can be no innovation if people constantly whine about wanting the familiar.



#52
Hillbillyden

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Monks in this game are only superificially Jackie Chan wanabees. This is a new setting with a slightly different take on numerous archetypes. Just adapt and appreciate what is there. There can be no innovation if people constantly whine about wanting the familiar.

 

Slightly different take on Monks or even Rogues?  Heh, yeah, sure. 

 

As for whinging? Wth man, you can apply that same logic to your own posts regarding xp. In that case just adapt and appreciate what is there. I'm guessing this is a min-maxer non-min-maxer outlook difference.



#53
Shevek

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Wth man, you can apply that same logic to your own posts regarding xp

I have. Theres a fine mod which reduces xp by 25%. Also, theres a fine difference between critiquing playability concerns where intended design does not match mechanical reality and making, as some in this thread do, cries against the intended design itself.


Edited by Shevek, 27 May 2015 - 02:59 PM.

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#54
kaiki

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The Monk was always my favorite pnp and even BG style games type character. I had to pass on them for POE for all the reasons people mentioned but basically it boils down to the devs idea of a monk versus mine and seemingly every other rpg + the vast majority of fantasy fiction since the dawn of time.

 

Pretty sure the idea for unarmed monk fighters with powerful unarmed attacks comes a single source, Shaolin. All the other monks that fought, that I can think of off the top of my head, wore armor and used weapons. I've always found it strange that RPGs, ie dnd, took the concept of a Shaolin monk and mashed that into a western setting when Europe had its own fighting monks in history.

 

I've found that the PoE monk is less jarring then if they wore no armor at all and ran around like they had on full plate. I hope in upcoming sequels they keep the monks as is and don't turn them into Shaolin monks.



#55
JONNIN

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The Monk was always my favorite pnp and even BG style games type character. I had to pass on them for POE for all the reasons people mentioned but basically it boils down to the devs idea of a monk versus mine and seemingly every other rpg + the vast majority of fantasy fiction since the dawn of time.

 

Not being a min/maxer, I just can't get around the whole martial artist hand to hand specialist that requires and desires taking damage and not avoiding it. This just seems a far more applicable approach to some kinda masochistic tank subclass.

 

It is all in how you think about it.   Many of the throws and other moves are a reaction to being attacked in martial arts.  Someone throws a punch or kick and they are now off  balance and overextended, and there are tons of moves that take advantage of that.   But you can't do those moves until you are attacked....    you don't have to take a hit, but you can think of the wound mechanic as avoiding the hit before exploiting the attack if you prefer ...  

 

as for the not taking damage thing...  the D&D monk never really worked that way... with an 18 dex maybe it did, but the tiny armor class bonus from leveling up was negated by enemy attackers having a higher thaco at higher levels... you were fighting naked and you got hit, a lot, until very high levels.



#56
sim-h

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Hello :)

 

I know that balance is still being worked on, devs are still getting a TON of feedback a day about pretty much anything, and this is still a work in progress. But there's one thing that's bothering me, and I posted on a couple of related topics about it, but no one seemed to pitch in, and I figured maybe it was just overlooked or something.

 

So even with the bugs, and balancing issues, I really love this game. My only real problem is the current state of monks, and I was wondering maybe I'm the only one feeling that way. Monks are my favorite RPG class. I always picture them in my mind as these awesome martial arts guys, in light / no armor, kicking and punching faces, dodging / soaking hits in a decent manner.

But in this game, they really didn't live up to my expectations. The wounds system sounds awesome on paper, but you have to get hit for it to work. Now, I can theoretically run a monk with full plate armor, but it doesn't feel like it fits the class theme, or the way I picture them in my mind, and running with light / no armor gets me killed too quickly. I can avoid getting hit, but then there's no interactive play to it without wounds.

 

I'd really love it if they had some innate per-level damage reduction, for example starting at 3 DR, and reaching 9 or 10 at max level, so they are roughly equal to a breastplate. [Only when not wearing armor of course]. Maybe a boost to endurance, so they can soak the same damage as an equal level fighter with medium / heavy armor.

 

Anyone else feels the same way ? Or maybe I'm just picturing them differently than the devs ?

 

[I just want to note, I played with a monk on hard, got as far as Defiance Bay quests and gave up eventually, feeling very weak compared to other melee classes. Went with a balanced attributes, no min-maxing, trying to focus on RP as much as possible. Had 14 constitution]

 

I'm playing exactly the same as you - RP monk on hard, no stat below 10, fine robes and some bonus items for DR and deflection. No major problems at all, and great fun.

 

I suspect the rest of your party composition may be a problem? I built a couple of companions as soon as possible (1 x rogue, 1 x cipher) and it's a cakewalk. Apart from the Ogre Mage bounty quest which pwned me about 4 times over (is Swarm of Insects bugged? I got like 200+ damage off it on every char I'm sure). But I got through it.



#57
lastpawn

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I think the class works fine, it's just not up to everyone's taste. It tanks reasonably well, does plenty of damage, has very strong disables, but yes, you have to get hit.



#58
PlotinusRedux

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Monks have high to very high in all 4 categories--health, endurance, accuracy, and deflection.  Wounds and the abilities they allow are just icing on top of that.

The problem is thinking of them as AD&D monks--like several classes here, they play very different from their AD&D classes of the same name.  Chanters, for example, do very well in full plate since it doesn't slow down their songs, whereas the stereotypical bard doesn't wear more than light armor.

You just have to get past your idea of what the class should be and play it for what it actually is.



#59
Shevek

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Its the Hulk Hogan of PoE.

http://i897.photobuc...abardillo-o.gif

And there's nothing wrong with that

#60
Krajzen

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I have always played some boring crap in RPGs similar to myself in real life - tall slim brown haired weirdo dealing magical damage while sucking at dexterity and then I decided to try something different and this is how my 19 might honest crazy philosopher monk girl was born.

 

I have never had so much classical RPG fun with any character as with this one.

 

She is amazing. Currently I am halfway through the game and I (she? we!) have dealth 2 times more damage than second highest damaging character in my team (I have Eder, Hiravias, Aloth, Durance and GMother and please note I intentionally rushed to getting all of them super early). My gal jumps in the middle of the fight with nothing but her girly fists of justice and kills everything I encounter and I am playing on Hard difficulty level while being an idiot who constantly forgets to buff team before important fights. Eder is full super tank who barely gets hit, rest of team spams bullets and spells everywhere and my girl just runs across the entire battlefield with 145HP kicking drakes, undeads, mages and animats across the floor, punching stuff so hard it explodes.

 

I cannot say a single bad word about this wonderful class.

 

Also:

1) Lore is absurdly good skill for monk as it allows to use some very low range spells or spells more delicate traditional spellcasters have problems to position with. My personal favourite is Fan of Flames from low level spells (though my lore is high enough to use much stronger ones).

2) As for secondary weapon set I strongly recommend to arm monk with two one-hand weapons, each of them dealing cut/pierce damage, this is against enemies resistant on usual crush damage done by fists. The best choice is to wield hatchet and spear here because not only they provice cut+pierce dmg but also are included in Weapons: Peasant talent so you can get +6 Accuracy both to fists and to those weapons with this single talent.

3) ...yes, two-weapons talents work for bare fists. +6 accuracy and +20% attack speed rock.

 

As for attributes I went

Might - full throuttle

Very priority - Constitution, monk cannot have extremely high defenses because then he is not hit and doesn't get wounds, but in the same time he should be resistant sooo good defenses and very high HP are the best way to go

High priority - Resolve (for deflection, dialogue options, roleplay and concentration), Dexterity (for attack speed)

Further priority - Intellect (for spells and minor skill bonuses + roleplay, maybe that's my inferiority complex but I can't play a character with low intellect :p )

 

 

dump stat: perception, I have other characters with interrupt and other sources of defenses (...monk doesn't dramatically need them to begin with). It is also the least insulting weak point of a character: 

 

a guy with low resolve - weak-minded!

a guy with low intellect - stupid!

a guy with low might/constitution - weakling!

a guy with low dexterity - awkward!

 

a guy with low perception - oh, a hero struggling with his disability (sight of a mole, hearing of a stone) against all odds :D or at worst, source of comism.







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