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"To be fair. D&D wizards do represent many, many, things wrong with class design."

 

D&D wizards represent the awesomesauce of class design. They are perfect the way they are.

 

 

Can someone link to where the person mentioned hating d&d wizard designs?

 

 

I keep hearing it said that he hates the old wizard designs but I want to see the context.

 

 

 

That said, I preferred the older wizard designs, they were not balanced, but they were not SUPPOSED to be effing balanced.  They were not some dude that's kind of fit and can twirl around a metal stick well.  They are wielders of COSMIC power, beings that can project elemental energies from their fingertips, beings that can stop time, conjure wish makers, conjure armies of undead and elemental servants as meat shields, harness dragons flames and comets from the heavens, change the rules of nature itself.

 

Of COURSE those classes are going to be more versatile and impressive and powerful than some standard fighter.  THAT IS THE POINT !!!!!!!!

 

We want to play as gandalf, not some elf sharp shooter or swordsman.  So do not deny us that fantasy.  The solution to wizards being powerful is to craft harder battles where even all that power is not enough to hold back the impending hordes alone.  Or develop enemies that even a wizard has a harder time defeating where more martial fighters fair better.

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"To be fair. D&D wizards do represent many, many, things wrong with class design."

 

D&D wizards represent the awesomesauce of class design. They are perfect the way they are.

 

 

Can someone link to where the person mentioned hating d&d wizard designs?

 

 

I keep hearing it said that he hates the old wizard designs but I want to see the context.

 

 

 

That said, I preferred the older wizard designs, they were not balanced, but they were not SUPPOSED to be effing balanced.  They were not some dude that's kind of fit and can twirl around a metal stick well.  They are wielders of COSMIC power, beings that can project elemental energies from their fingertips, beings that can stop time, conjure wish makers, conjure armies of undead and elemental servants as meat shields, harness dragons flames and comets from the heavens, change the rules of nature itself.

 

Of COURSE those classes are going to be more versatile and impressive and powerful than some standard fighter.  THAT IS THE POINT !!!!!!!!

 

We want to play as gandalf, not some elf sharp shooter or swordsman.  So do not deny us that fantasy.  The solution to wizards being powerful is to craft harder battles where even all that power is not enough to hold back the impending hordes alone.  Or develop enemies that even a wizard has a harder time defeating where more martial fighters fair better.

 

What is with this "I don't want balance" meme? Yes, all of that is great in a book. Not so much in a game, particularly one with pretentions of difficulty or teamwork. There are ways to do wizards, and make them feel magical and powerful, without unbalancing them and there are ways to design games so wizards have crazy powers, without overshadowing all the other options, but neither of those are what old-school wizards did. Breaking the game, just because it fits your fluff, is not a good thing. It trivializes the game and, if you're playing with other people (like actual D&D), ruins the experience for other players. Even if you're playing on your own, why are you playing a game where you can trivialize every chalange?

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"To be fair. D&D wizards do represent many, many, things wrong with class design."

 

D&D wizards represent the awesomesauce of class design. They are perfect the way they are.

 

 

Can someone link to where the person mentioned hating d&d wizard designs?

 

 

I keep hearing it said that he hates the old wizard designs but I want to see the context.

 

 

 

That said, I preferred the older wizard designs, they were not balanced, but they were not SUPPOSED to be effing balanced.  They were not some dude that's kind of fit and can twirl around a metal stick well.  They are wielders of COSMIC power, beings that can project elemental energies from their fingertips, beings that can stop time, conjure wish makers, conjure armies of undead and elemental servants as meat shields, harness dragons flames and comets from the heavens, change the rules of nature itself.

 

Of COURSE those classes are going to be more versatile and impressive and powerful than some standard fighter.  THAT IS THE POINT !!!!!!!!

 

We want to play as gandalf, not some elf sharp shooter or swordsman.  So do not deny us that fantasy.  The solution to wizards being powerful is to craft harder battles where even all that power is not enough to hold back the impending hordes alone.  Or develop enemies that even a wizard has a harder time defeating where more martial fighters fair better.

 

What is with this "I don't want balance" meme? Yes, all of that is great in a book. Not so much in a game, particularly one with pretentions of difficulty or teamwork. There are ways to do wizards, and make them feel magical and powerful, without unbalancing them and there are ways to design games so wizards have crazy powers, without overshadowing all the other options, but neither of those are what old-school wizards did. Breaking the game, just because it fits your fluff, is not a good thing. It trivializes the game and, if you're playing with other people (like actual D&D), ruins the experience for other players. Even if you're playing on your own, why are you playing a game where you can trivialize every chalange?

 

 

 

That's an mmo model of mages where we have to pretend the guy who can incinerate his enemies with a thought is going to have a hard time taking out a warrior, this is a single player party based game, it's ok to have unbalanced characters in terms of power.  baldurs gate might have gone a bit overboard with the knock spell where even rogues lock picking skills were redundant, but in terms of bringing destruction to bare there is zero reason a mage should EVER take a back seat to any other class.  They are not bound by the constraints of the physical world, by Reality.  They are gods among insects, any pretense to the contrary is just massaging the egos of people who prefer to play warriors/rogues as their primary archetype.  As if a character that has mastered "stab stab" could EVER hope to match someone who can bring down the fires of heaven.

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Arcane Veil sucks

 

Druid as example starts with +10 deflection... and can take all from con... and still have more hitpoints... and then use them up perception/resolve.

 

Druid can start the game with +20 deflection over a wizard and do so with no talent points spent...

As a matter of fact druid is ALMOST as good as a wizard with arcane veil in deflection in this way, and has slightly over +50% more health then the wizard...

Also has more endurance so they can take more hits..

 

Wizard needs Arcane Veil and second level Spell too that still doesnt increase health anywhere near the unbuffed druid has and doesnt buff endurance.

 

So Druid starts the game at a health/deflection level that a Wizard needs to spend a Talent point AND cast a spell two spells to kinda match.

 

Which is the ENTIRE problem with the wizard... extra effort and work to match other spell casters... for no gain.

 

Every other spell casting class has 15-20 deflection and more health.

 

 

Ohh and just to drive this point home about wizards.

 

Cipher using a medium enchanted shield has about the same deflection(base 20+shield+enchant bonus) then granted by hardend Arcane viel and only -1 accuracy compared to a wizard(due to shield accuracy modifier)

 

 

You go though as a wizard spending talent points and casting spells... to bring your wizard UP to a level that other classes can match without talent points and spells.

Edited by Phoynix
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"To be fair. D&D wizards do represent many, many, things wrong with class design."

 

D&D wizards represent the awesomesauce of class design. They are perfect the way they are.

 

 

Can someone link to where the person mentioned hating d&d wizard designs?

 

 

I keep hearing it said that he hates the old wizard designs but I want to see the context.

 

 

 

That said, I preferred the older wizard designs, they were not balanced, but they were not SUPPOSED to be effing balanced.  They were not some dude that's kind of fit and can twirl around a metal stick well.  They are wielders of COSMIC power, beings that can project elemental energies from their fingertips, beings that can stop time, conjure wish makers, conjure armies of undead and elemental servants as meat shields, harness dragons flames and comets from the heavens, change the rules of nature itself.

 

Of COURSE those classes are going to be more versatile and impressive and powerful than some standard fighter.  THAT IS THE POINT !!!!!!!!

 

We want to play as gandalf, not some elf sharp shooter or swordsman.  So do not deny us that fantasy.  The solution to wizards being powerful is to craft harder battles where even all that power is not enough to hold back the impending hordes alone.  Or develop enemies that even a wizard has a harder time defeating where more martial fighters fair better.

 

What is with this "I don't want balance" meme? Yes, all of that is great in a book. Not so much in a game, particularly one with pretentions of difficulty or teamwork. There are ways to do wizards, and make them feel magical and powerful, without unbalancing them and there are ways to design games so wizards have crazy powers, without overshadowing all the other options, but neither of those are what old-school wizards did. Breaking the game, just because it fits your fluff, is not a good thing. It trivializes the game and, if you're playing with other people (like actual D&D), ruins the experience for other players. Even if you're playing on your own, why are you playing a game where you can trivialize every chalange?

 

 

 

That's an mmo model of mages where we have to pretend the guy who can incinerate his enemies with a thought is going to have a hard time taking out a warrior, this is a single player party based game, it's ok to have unbalanced characters in terms of power.  baldurs gate might have gone a bit overboard with the knock spell where even rogues lock picking skills were redundant, but in terms of bringing destruction to bare there is zero reason a mage should EVER take a back seat to any other class.  They are not bound by the constraints of the physical world, by Reality.  They are gods among insects, any pretense to the contrary is just massaging the egos of people who prefer to play warriors/rogues as their primary archetype.  As if a character that has mastered "stab stab" could EVER hope to match someone who can bring down the fires of heaven.

 

No. No it really isn't and the idea that MMO can be used as a derogatory adjective as if it explains anything is almost as annoying as the "I don't want balance meme." Player classes should be comprable to each other is a basic tenent of game design, as a whole, because disenfranchising more than half of your player base is a bad idea. When wizards can be better than any non-mage class in every catagory, there is no reason to play any of those classes and you have wasted your time in creating them and slieghted your players by pretending they are viable. You have also revealed an unforgivable lack of imagination.

 

Want to see balance done right? Go play a game of Legend. I have a level 16 magic-type character. She can teleport with nearly every possible action. Standard? I summon a tidal wave, everything in a cone takes damage and get's nocked prone and I can move to any point in the cone. Move? I can teleport next to anything that's burning and then open up with my minigun for unavoidable damage, because I felt like it. Swift? Myst aura for miss chance and teleport at the same time. 5-ft step? I'm treating a square on the other side of the map as coterminous; also, you're on fire, deal with it. Except I'm not actually teleporting; what I do is better. I can lift 12 tons of matter telekinetically. I have an array of at-will aoes that would make a sorcerer blush, allowing me to taget any save or damage type and apply nearly any condition in the game. I can raze armies. Tell me that does not fit the immage of a powerful mage.

 

And yet, through all of that insanity, I do not normally overshadow the other players, even the more mundane melee players, because they are good at what they do. We have a fencer who's single target damage is sikening. Give me 4 mobs and I'll dwarf his dpr without even trying, but against a single target? Not a chance. I can regen a significant fracition of my health every round, but I still can't tank damage like our beast man, who can also apply slow just by attacking. My mage can do awesome thing, but so can the people she adventures with. After all, why would she adventure with them otherwise?

 

All classes don't need to be good at all things, but they do need to be at comprable levels of power. You can write a game where mages are handsdown better than mundanes, several good ones already exist, but you better not offer mundanes to the players as an equivilent choice of character, because then you're lying to them and failing at your job as a game designer.

Edited by Epsilon Rose
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