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Let's talk about the Estoc...

Estoc Weapon Balance DR Reduction Two-Handed

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#41
Hatred

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IMO the estoc is fine because of the weapon group it's in. There's no really good ranged weapon or really good one-handed weapon in that group, so if you pick Adventurer weapon it's gonna be just the estoc. You gain in maximal striking power but you won't participate in opening volleys and you won't be much good at tanking or hitting accurately when that's needed.

 

Don't nerf the estoc I say.

 If you want to carry 6 guns for some opening volley I dont see how a lack of the right talent for that one shot stops you. I use a hunting bow on sagani though so that kind of shows you how much i feel the need to min max right now.



#42
TrashMan

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With your proposed system, you may as well scrap all DR types and resistances.


Yeah, scrapping those was kind of the point. It's a horrendous system that adds nothing except busywork for the player. Yes, I'm smart enough to get Weapon Focus: Adventurer and to hover over the enemy's stat block before I fight, please quit making me prove that I have mastered weapon-switch technology. It's not as satisfying in the same way that, say, landing the perfect fireball or choosing who to Pain Block is.

 

 

You brain is horrendous and need fixing more than PoE. :p



#43
Elerond

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There are quite lot enemies and some armors (Exceptional/Superb Breastplates Fine/Exceptional/Superb Mails) that have either slash or crush DR and in some case both over 5 points lower than pierce DR. So estoc is not always superior, especially when you compare it to pollaxe, But there are only three type enemies whose slash DR is over 5 point lower than their pierce DR: Adra Dragon, Giant Dank Spore, and Forest Lurker.  So Estoc is nearly always superior to Great Sword, only reasons to pick great sword as your weapon of choice are Tidefall and Justice which are quite good magic swords for burst damage dealers. Pollaxe is good secondary weapon for estoc against those enemies that are vulnerable to crush and those few that are vulnerable slash. 

 

EDIT: What makes Pollaxe and Estoc even better companion weapons each other is fact that they are in same weapon focus group.


Edited by Elerond, 03 April 2015 - 06:12 AM.

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#44
Matuse

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Estoc is nice, sure, but it is not unequivacably the best. Leaving aside anything with heavy pierce resistance, the fact that it doesn't have reach means there will be times when it won't be able to hit anything at all.

 

It also means that you'll need to get adjacent to any enemies to hit them, which means they can easily turn away from the tank and smack you (since there is no aggro generation mechanic that forces monsters to stay on the tank, and they do enjoy switching to whomever hits/debuffs them the hardest, which will emphatically NOT be your tank)...which means that any melee character using the Estoc needs to also be wearing something in the way of protection, and the -recovery means you are hitting less often than someone using a Pike/Quarterstaff.



#45
EmilAmundsen

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These armor penetration and related weapon balance issues are due to one thing:

During beta, some of the internal OE beta testers complained that the armor system confused them. It had something called Damage Threshold (what we now call DR) and the original Damage Reduction (percentile, not integer based like now). So weapons like the Estoc got through some DT but not the (old)DR. DT bypass was good but not as godly as it is now since player still had to deal with percentile DR. Also, weapon damages were lowered to accommodate for this change - this further amplified weapon imbalances created by the armor system.

The game still hasn't recovered weapon balance wise from the fateful decision to move away from its superior older armor system to move to the simple one it shipped with.

This is becoming an annoying trend.

 

 

 

 

 

I wish they would unbalance the weapons more. No weapons should be best for every situation, but DR-penetrating weapons should certainly be best against DR.

 
I feel the complete opposite way. As much as I like the game I hate the damage type and DR systems. All it does is force me to gauge the enemy's DRs and switch to the weapon that does the highest DPS to it, which is just a chore. If weapons just had a few niches (probably high-interrupt [two-weapon], high defense [shield], high damage [two-handed]) and otherwise were just aesthetic choices I'd be much, much happier.
 
The other matter is how incredibly annoying flat DR is. I've tinkered with some RPG systems of my own in the past and found that, just like the video game Gothic demonstrates, that a system of flat DR is incredibly difficult to balance well. You touched on PoE's big problem earlier in your post: heavy armor is too common, which means the high damage-per-hit weapons are the clear choices (long live the Estoc/Poleaxe combo!). Of course if heavy armor was too rare then dual-wielding would be the obvious choice, but that wouldn't be so bad since the toughest fights tend to have more DR so who would kit themselves out based on how to handle the easy fights?
 
Armor should just be a simple increase to deflection. It's much simpler and doesn't bias the game towards one weapon type or another.

 

 

 

I do agree that flat DR is incredebly difficult to balance. In fact in real life they didn't manage to balance it at all. They raced towards heavier armor and weapons, leaving lighter ones in the past..until they found the weapon that penetrates all armor they could conceivably wear. After that they stopped wearing armor, as it was almost pointless or even worse than not wearing it. This gives the unbalance in PoE an extra immersive dimension.

 

I don't care about the "balance" or weapons  in the game because that concept is moot in a 'single-player. I don't like character creation traps, but I really detest the idea of killing the well-functioning single-player mechanics just because some people can't cope with their pre-conceptions being broken.

 

I can't believe I have to keep saying this, but that is not how balance works. You want a balanced game, believe me you do, because an unbalanced game is a broken game that will, at best, quickly grow stale. Go turn on the cheat console and do a run where you start at level 12 with 24s in all of your stats and you'll see what I mean. There is a difference between balanced and everything being the same or even on the same level. 

 

 

Sir, this thread starts with a complaint that one weapon is better than the others, and that it unbalances the game with the 5 extra points of damage it does against monsters who doesen't have extra protection against piercing attacks. I think it's safe to say you're missing the mark by a fair bit there.

 

No, the thread started by saying one type of weapon is always better than the others because the condition for it to be better is always true. In a game that's all about building different characters, if one choice is always clearly superior in a category of weapons, then that is broken and you might as well not have a choice in the first place.

 

 

I'd say there is a fair difference between what OP reads and what you choose to interprit between it's lines.

 

Regardless, you're wrong. I use both pikes and quarterstaffs when I game with a party. Their reach ability outdoes the DR penetration by a fair bit for any caster. Then there is the morningstar, which I feel you need a build to make worthwhile. I don't know what that build is, but if morningstar is subpar it's so compared to all weapons in the category. Then there are just two remaining weapons in the category, pollaxe and greatsword. I feel that Estoc is better than both as a general purpose weapon, tho more so against the greatsword. Pollaxe is better against certain enemies. In the end the only comparable weapon that is almost always a bit poorer than the Estoc in terms of base stats is the Greatsword.

 

That said, weapon enhancements outdoes basic weapon stats. Since enhancements are escalating throughout the game, I'm limited more by what magic weapons I find than by weapon-type. The weapons I equip is based on what magic ones I find, and only secondarily each characters preferred weapon. Which makes your points moot.


Edited by EmilAmundsen, 03 April 2015 - 08:06 AM.


#46
EmilAmundsen

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The weapons in PoE should not be more "balanced", if anything they should be more unbalanced. The point is that they should be more diverse, not more alike. They should not be more unbalansed to make one weapon always best and another always worst, but to make them clearly shine under different conditions. I can't think of a game of the top of my head that does this better than PoE so I'm happy as it is, but I'm sure it can be improved further.

 

This thread have brought up a valid complaint about character creation traps. Devs should look into why players feel anything but two-handed weapons are traps and look for a good way to eliminate the traps. If nothing else the text "some players have reported that it's very hard to make non-giant melee-weapons worthwhile" could be useful. But maybe they would also discover something about their game design they hadn't realized. Regardless this is a task for about 6 months into the future.

 

Please ignore people who can't cope with their broken pre-conceptions, and demand that you break the game down to cope with their frustration instead. 



#47
dirigible

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The weapons in PoE should not be more "balanced", if anything they should be more unbalanced. The point is that they should be more diverse, not more alike. They should not be more unbalansed to make one weapon always best and another always worst, but to make them clearly shine under different conditions. I can't think of a game of the top of my head that does this better than PoE so I'm happy as it is, but I'm sure it can be improved further.

Balanced does not mean homogeneous.

You can have different weapons all of which have different areas of specialty, which are still balanced against each other.

 

When each weapon is useful and best in different circumstances, and no one weapon dominates all the others, that's balance.

When one weapon is the best weapon under 90% of situations, that's not balanced.


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#48
EmilAmundsen

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Balanced does not mean homogeneous.

happy as it is, but I'm sure it can be improved further.

You can have different weapons all of which have different areas of specialty, which are still balanced against each other.

 

When each weapon is useful and best in different circumstances, and no one weapon dominates all the others, that's balance.

When one weapon is the best weapon under 90% of situations, that's not balanced.

 

 

I don't find Estoc best 90% of the time unless I'm soloing. In a party I usually have 1 or 2 frontliners with Estocs, depending on what enhanced weapons I find. All my backliners use pikes or quarterstaffs.

 

I do agree "balance" can mean many things. The posts in this thread however have called for nerfing the Estoc with the consequense of making weapons more homogeneous, making it a good descriptor for what this thread rely as balance.

 

Edit: I do find two-handed melee-weapons best 90% of the time tho.


Edited by EmilAmundsen, 03 April 2015 - 09:10 AM.


#49
Shevek

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The best balance to the Estoc is to modify 50% of enemies by drastically increasing their endurance and decreasing their dr to 0.


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#50
Matt516

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There are quite lot enemies and some armors (Exceptional/Superb Breastplates Fine/Exceptional/Superb Mails) that have either slash or crush DR and in some case both over 5 points lower than pierce DR. So estoc is not always superior, especially when you compare it to pollaxe, But there are only three type enemies whose slash DR is over 5 point lower than their pierce DR: Adra Dragon, Giant Dank Spore, and Forest Lurker.  So Estoc is nearly always superior to Great Sword, only reasons to pick great sword as your weapon of choice are Tidefall and Justice which are quite good magic swords for burst damage dealers. Pollaxe is good secondary weapon for estoc against those enemies that are vulnerable to crush and those few that are vulnerable slash. 

 

EDIT: What makes Pollaxe and Estoc even better companion weapons each other is fact that they are in same weapon focus group.

 

 Yeah - my original post wasn't so much directed at the Poleaxe/Estoc pairing (since they are complements) but the Greatsword/Estoc pairing. Greatswords seem like they kinda get shafted, not having any 2H crush damage on the weapon focus and hardly ever being better than the Estoc. I like Greatswords... :/



#51
Matt516

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The weapons in PoE should not be more "balanced", if anything they should be more unbalanced. The point is that they should be more diverse, not more alike. They should not be more unbalansed to make one weapon always best and another always worst, but to make them clearly shine under different conditions. I can't think of a game of the top of my head that does this better than PoE so I'm happy as it is, but I'm sure it can be improved further.

Balanced does not mean homogeneous.

You can have different weapons all of which have different areas of specialty, which are still balanced against each other.

 

When each weapon is useful and best in different circumstances, and no one weapon dominates all the others, that's balance.

When one weapon is the best weapon under 90% of situations, that's not balanced.

 

 

Exactly. It's not about them all being the same - it's about there not being an obvious winner. Estoc is the obvious winner. Greatsword is terrible in comparison. Which makes Matt sad, because a Barbarian using Carnage with an Estoc just looks and feels wrong. :p


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#52
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The weapons in PoE should not be more "balanced", if anything they should be more unbalanced. The point is that they should be more diverse, not more alike. They should not be more unbalansed to make one weapon always best and another always worst, but to make them clearly shine under different conditions. I can't think of a game of the top of my head that does this better than PoE so I'm happy as it is, but I'm sure it can be improved further.

Balanced does not mean homogeneous.

You can have different weapons all of which have different areas of specialty, which are still balanced against each other.

 

When each weapon is useful and best in different circumstances, and no one weapon dominates all the others, that's balance.

When one weapon is the best weapon under 90% of situations, that's not balanced.

 

 

Exactly. It's not about them all being the same - it's about there not being an obvious winner. Estoc is the obvious winner. Greatsword is terrible in comparison. Which makes Matt sad, because a Barbarian using Carnage with an Estoc just looks and feels wrong. :p

 

 

Thats why you go quarterstaff Barb



#53
Judicator

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The weapons in PoE should not be more "balanced", if anything they should be more unbalanced. The point is that they should be more diverse, not more alike. They should not be more unbalansed to make one weapon always best and another always worst, but to make them clearly shine under different conditions. I can't think of a game of the top of my head that does this better than PoE so I'm happy as it is, but I'm sure it can be improved further.

Balanced does not mean homogeneous.

You can have different weapons all of which have different areas of specialty, which are still balanced against each other.

 

When each weapon is useful and best in different circumstances, and no one weapon dominates all the others, that's balance.

When one weapon is the best weapon under 90% of situations, that's not balanced.

 

 

Exactly. It's not about them all being the same - it's about there not being an obvious winner. Estoc is the obvious winner. Greatsword is terrible in comparison. Which makes Matt sad, because a Barbarian using Carnage with an Estoc just looks and feels wrong. :p

 

Eh, my Barb is using an Estoc and loving it.



#54
tnc

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Estocs and two handed swords are best 2H weapons by far. Estocs give DR and two handed swords have two damage types. Many enemies have high piercing DR and it's the disadvantage of Estocs, but still... Spoilers ahead:

 

The best Estoc in the game is Blade of the Endless Paths. You get it after clearing the Endless Paths!!! I think it's definately in the top five weapons. It gives extra attack speed(1.2) + marked effect (+10 accuracy to an ally attacking the same target) and it's top quality (12 acc. x1.45 dmg). Also 5 DR bypass that estocs have. I believe you can enchant it further. Imo best late game weapons are the ones that give attack speed since it's really hard to get and later on attack speed has the biggest impact on dps. And also endurance leech is really good.

 

There's also 'Drake's Bell' found early in the game, from a bounty quest. It has beast slaying and really effective against Dragons, one of the tougher enemies (maybe the toughest actually, anyone fought that Adra Dragon?) you'll ever face in POE. Btw i just noticed you can charm Drakes easily with a level 1 Druid spell(charm beast). It might even charm bigger dragons, since i think they're also beasts. I think that might need a nerf lol.



#55
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Estocs and two handed swords are best 2H weapons by far. Estocs give DR and two handed swords have two damage types.

 

The Estoc is actually in a weapon group with the Poleaxe, a two-handed weapon that also has two damage types. A match made in heaven, I'd say.



#56
tnc

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Estocs and two handed swords are best 2H weapons by far. Estocs give DR and two handed swords have two damage types.

 

The Estoc is actually in a weapon group with the Poleaxe, a two-handed weapon that also has two damage types. A match made in heaven, I'd say.

 

 

Yeah but too bad unique poleaxes in the game suck!! There are only four of them and they have the less useful stats such as 'crits can inflict prone' or '%10 hits converted to crits'. Really bad dps-wise!



#57
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Eh, I make my own stuff.







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