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Let's talk about the Estoc...

Estoc Weapon Balance DR Reduction Two-Handed

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#21
Hatred

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No weapons should be best for every situation, but DR-penetrating weapons should certainly be best against DR.

 

The problem with this is that most enemies are going to have at least 5 DR, thereby benefiting fully from the Estoc's ability. You get no more benefit from using the Estoc against someone in Plate than you do from using it against someone in Leather. Which is silly.

 

I'd prefer it if it was more along the lines of "penetrates 50% of DR or 5 DR, whichever is less". That way it's actually an anti-armor weapon and not an anti-everything-that-isn't-naked weapon.

 

 I actually like this suggestion. Making the Estoc lose a little bit of accuracy like the firearms which have an accuracy penalty to offset the DR pen would maybe be something hey could throw into the mix also. That said I have spent some time using Just Ice and it isnt that bad. Sure estocs are best but I feel like people are getting just a wee bit too worked up about it. 


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#22
dirigible

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I do agree that flat DR is incredebly difficult to balance. In fact in real life they didn't manage to balance it at all. They raced towards heavier armor and weapons, leaving lighter ones in the past..until they found the weapon that penetrates all armor they could conceivably wear. After that they stopped wearing armor, as it was almost pointless or even worse than not wearing it. This gives the unbalance in PoE an extra immersive dimension.

Actually, this isn't what happened at all.

 

Armor did not get heavier. People wore MORE armor because armorsmithing techniques improved, which allowed people to wear more metal without being more encumbered. A full suit of fitted plate armor was (is) surprisingly light. A cursory google search will show you people performing cartwheels and jumping jacks in it.

 

Weapons, too, did not get heavier. Weapons which were designed to counter armor actually tended to be smaller. Daggers turned into spikes, swords turned into maces or hammers. Pikes evolved to counter cavalry, NOT to defeat armor.

 

Finally, guns did not penetrate armor. That is, guns did not penetrate a breastplate. Guns certainly did not lead to the fall of plate armor (at least, not in the way you might expect). It's important to realize that articulated plate armor was developed at the same time guns were becoming popular. One didn't succeed the other, they were contemporaries. Guns stuck and armor didn't for the simple reason that armor is expensive and guns are cheap. It's much more cost effective to buy 100 guns than to buy a single suit of armor.

 

Finally, people continued to wear armor (cuirasses) up until the 1900s.


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#23
EmilAmundsen

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I do agree that flat DR is incredebly difficult to balance. In fact in real life they didn't manage to balance it at all. They raced towards heavier armor and weapons, leaving lighter ones in the past..until they found the weapon that penetrates all armor they could conceivably wear. After that they stopped wearing armor, as it was almost pointless or even worse than not wearing it. This gives the unbalance in PoE an extra immersive dimension.

Actually, this isn't what happened at all.

 

Armor did not get heavier. People wore MORE armor because armorsmithing techniques improved, which allowed people to wear more metal without being more encumbered. A full suit of fitted plate armor was (is) surprisingly light. A cursory google search will show you people performing cartwheels and jumping jacks in it.

 

Weapons, too, did not get heavier. Weapons which were designed to counter armor actually tended to be smaller. Daggers turned into spikes, swords turned into maces or hammers. Pikes evolved to counter cavalry, NOT to defeat armor.

 

Finally, guns did not penetrate armor. That is, guns did not penetrate a breastplate. Guns certainly did not lead to the fall of plate armor (at least, not in the way you might expect). It's important to realize that articulated plate armor was developed at the same time guns were becoming popular. One didn't succeed the other, they were contemporaries. Guns stuck and armor didn't for the simple reason that armor is expensive and guns are cheap. It's much more cost effective to buy 100 guns than to buy a single suit of armor.

 

Finally, people continued to wear armor (cuirasses) up until the 1900s.

 

 

Frankly my jabber about armor-history is just hear-say, as my interest in the subject is somewhat low. Being contradicted so completely however made me curious. Maybe I've been subscribing to lies? However, these two wikis about the arquebus and plate mail contradicts you in turn..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Plate_armour

 

Can I assume you have a more credible source of evidence?



#24
dirigible

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Frankly my jabber about armor-history is just hear-say, as my interest in the subject is somewhat low. Being contradicted so completely however made me curious. Maybe I've been subscribing to lies? However, these two wikis about the arquebus and plate mail contradicts you in turn..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Plate_armour

 

Can I assume you have a more credible source of evidence?

 

You're gonna have to be more specific on how they're contradicting me.



#25
EmilAmundsen

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Frankly my jabber about armor-history is just hear-say, as my interest in the subject is somewhat low. Being contradicted so completely however made me curious. Maybe I've been subscribing to lies? However, these two wikis about the arquebus and plate mail contradicts you in turn..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Plate_armour

 

Can I assume you have a more credible source of evidence?

 

You're gonna have to be more specific on how they're contradicting me.

 

 Well, they read that everything you write in your post is complete bollocks. With the exeption of your claim that someone on youtube did a cartwheel in some armor, but that point was really neither here nor there.

 

But no you're wrong, I didn't even have to be more specific. You made a boast of superior knowledge, and I asked for evidence. You don't deliver you're just a phony who conveys his own fantasies to seem important, getting hooked up on something entirely beside the point in the first place. Now you just look self-important.


Edited by EmilAmundsen, 02 April 2015 - 07:49 PM.


#26
dirigible

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 Well, they read that everything you write in your post is complete bollocks. With the exeption of your claim that someone on youtube did a cartwheel in some armor, but that point was really neither here nor there.

If you want to have a conversation then you need to say something specific, like "In this article it says that X happened in Y century, which conflicts with what you said".

 

If you want to ****post and waste your time, then continue being smugly vague. I'm not going to read an entire wikipedia article and then GUESS which part you want me to address.


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#27
Daemonjax

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Plate armor was made to stop swords not bullets... not that many people could afford plate, anyways.



#28
Shevek

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These armor penetration and related weapon balance issues are due to one thing:

During beta, some of the internal OE beta testers complained that the armor system confused them. It had something called Damage Threshold (what we now call DR) and the original Damage Reduction (percentile, not integer based like now). So weapons like the Estoc got through some DT but not the (old)DR. DT bypass was good but not as godly as it is now since player still had to deal with percentile DR. Also, weapon damages were lowered to accommodate for this change - this further amplified weapon imbalances created by the armor system.

The game still hasn't recovered weapon balance wise from the fateful decision to move away from its superior older armor system to move to the simple one it shipped with.

Edited by Shevek, 02 April 2015 - 08:42 PM.

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#29
ErlKing

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I think there should be 3 types of enemies scalling:

 

a-type - Ironclads, DR scale with difficulty (15+), health low  - use firearms, poison, RAW spells, DR debuffs, slow n hard-hitting weapons.

 

b-type - hybrids, DR scale, but not that crazy, health scale mostly - each approach viable, but monsters have their weaknesses

 

c-type - meatbags, DR 0-5, only Health (stamina/endurance) scale with enemy type, so fast / duals weapons, aoe damage spells, much better than two-handers/firearms.

 

As I understand:

 

a-type - skeletons (high pierce, zero crush), armored humans, automates...

 

b-type - various...

 

c-type - flesh zombies, beasts...



#30
Epsilon Rose

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These armor penetration and related weapon balance issues are due to one thing:

During beta, some of the internal OE beta testers complained that the armor system confused them. It had something called Damage Threshold (what we now call DR) and the original Damage Reduction (percentile, not integer based like now). So weapons like the Estoc got through some DT but not the (old)DR. DT bypass was good but not as godly as it is now since player still had to deal with percentile DR. Also, weapon damages were lowered to accommodate for this change - this further amplified weapon imbalances created by the armor system.

The game still hasn't recovered weapon balance wise from the fateful decision to move away from its superior older armor system to move to the simple one it shipped with.

This is becoming an annoying trend.

 

 

 

 

 

I wish they would unbalance the weapons more. No weapons should be best for every situation, but DR-penetrating weapons should certainly be best against DR.

 
I feel the complete opposite way. As much as I like the game I hate the damage type and DR systems. All it does is force me to gauge the enemy's DRs and switch to the weapon that does the highest DPS to it, which is just a chore. If weapons just had a few niches (probably high-interrupt [two-weapon], high defense [shield], high damage [two-handed]) and otherwise were just aesthetic choices I'd be much, much happier.
 
The other matter is how incredibly annoying flat DR is. I've tinkered with some RPG systems of my own in the past and found that, just like the video game Gothic demonstrates, that a system of flat DR is incredibly difficult to balance well. You touched on PoE's big problem earlier in your post: heavy armor is too common, which means the high damage-per-hit weapons are the clear choices (long live the Estoc/Poleaxe combo!). Of course if heavy armor was too rare then dual-wielding would be the obvious choice, but that wouldn't be so bad since the toughest fights tend to have more DR so who would kit themselves out based on how to handle the easy fights?
 
Armor should just be a simple increase to deflection. It's much simpler and doesn't bias the game towards one weapon type or another.

 

 

 

I do agree that flat DR is incredebly difficult to balance. In fact in real life they didn't manage to balance it at all. They raced towards heavier armor and weapons, leaving lighter ones in the past..until they found the weapon that penetrates all armor they could conceivably wear. After that they stopped wearing armor, as it was almost pointless or even worse than not wearing it. This gives the unbalance in PoE an extra immersive dimension.

 

I don't care about the "balance" or weapons  in the game because that concept is moot in a 'single-player. I don't like character creation traps, but I really detest the idea of killing the well-functioning single-player mechanics just because some people can't cope with their pre-conceptions being broken.

 

I can't believe I have to keep saying this, but that is not how balance works. You want a balanced game, believe me you do, because an unbalanced game is a broken game that will, at best, quickly grow stale. Go turn on the cheat console and do a run where you start at level 12 with 24s in all of your stats and you'll see what I mean. There is a difference between balanced and everything being the same or even on the same level. 

 

 

Sir, this thread starts with a complaint that one weapon is better than the others, and that it unbalances the game with the 5 extra points of damage it does against monsters who doesen't have extra protection against piercing attacks. I think it's safe to say you're missing the mark by a fair bit there.

 

No, the thread started by saying one type of weapon is always better than the others because the condition for it to be better is always true. In a game that's all about building different characters, if one choice is always clearly superior in a category of weapons, then that is broken and you might as well not have a choice in the first place.



#31
Hatred

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Frankly my jabber about armor-history is just hear-say, as my interest in the subject is somewhat low. Being contradicted so completely however made me curious. Maybe I've been subscribing to lies? However, these two wikis about the arquebus and plate mail contradicts you in turn..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Plate_armour

 

Can I assume you have a more credible source of evidence?

 

You're gonna have to be more specific on how they're contradicting me.

 

 Well, they read that everything you write in your post is complete bollocks. With the exeption of your claim that someone on youtube did a cartwheel in some armor, but that point was really neither here nor there.

 

But no you're wrong, I didn't even have to be more specific. You made a boast of superior knowledge, and I asked for evidence. You don't deliver you're just a phony who conveys his own fantasies to seem important, getting hooked up on something entirely beside the point in the first place. Now you just look self-important.

 

 The first thing I read in the wiki you linked was how an arquebus didn't penetrate a breastplate. So yeah. Sorry. You do need to be more specific. In a general sense you are quite wrong about how arms and armour work though.



#32
Hatred

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 Hmm back to the topic of Estoc's. The two best weapons I have found to date are both Estoc. So that does kind of further push them into the 'you should definitely choose these' category.



#33
Daemonjax

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These armor penetration and related weapon balance issues are due to one thing:

During beta, some of the internal OE beta testers complained that the armor system confused them. It had something called Damage Threshold (what we now call DR) and the original Damage Reduction (percentile, not integer based like now). So weapons like the Estoc got through some DT but not the (old)DR. DT bypass was good but not as godly as it is now since player still had to deal with percentile DR. Also, weapon damages were lowered to accommodate for this change - this further amplified weapon imbalances created by the armor system.

The game still hasn't recovered weapon balance wise from the fateful decision to move away from its superior older armor system to move to the simple one it shipped with.

 

That would actually be a very good system for DR in a video game (it would suck for PnP -- too much math).  

 

Too bad they didn't stick with it.


Edited by Daemonjax, 02 April 2015 - 11:04 PM.


#34
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It's okay for a weapon to be good.  The estoc is good, but not overwhelmingly so.  The counterpoint to estoc goodness is their rarity, especially the rarity of magical ones, at least in my play so far.  I have only seen ones with fine/exceptional...no special magical effects.  This is in contrast two two-handed swords; I have seen a couple special ones, including one so good that my second playthrough will be with a character designed specifically to use it.

 

Edit: Even finding a non-magical estoc to buy is a chore.

 

What rarity? Eder literally hands you a good estoc at lvl 2. And you can get and exceptional Estoc and a ridiculously awesome blizzard casting estoc after doing one easy quest immediately in act 2. 



#35
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What rarity? Eder literally hands you a good estoc at lvl 2. And you can get and exceptional Estoc and a ridiculously awesome blizzard casting estoc after doing one easy quest immediately in act 2. 

 

 Whoa. I didn't even find those two. I have one which has extra DR punch and Fire resist and also the one which is superb and with bonus attack speed and marking. Where is this blizzard one ?



#36
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What rarity? Eder literally hands you a good estoc at lvl 2. And you can get and exceptional Estoc and a ridiculously awesome blizzard casting estoc after doing one easy quest immediately in act 2. 

 

 Whoa. I didn't even find those two. I have one which has extra DR punch and Fire resist and also the one which is superb and with bonus attack speed and marking. Where is this blizzard one ?

 

Spoiler



#37
Hatred

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What rarity? Eder literally hands you a good estoc at lvl 2. And you can get and exceptional Estoc and a ridiculously awesome blizzard casting estoc after doing one easy quest immediately in act 2. 

 

 Whoa. I didn't even find those two. I have one which has extra DR punch and Fire resist and also the one which is superb and with bonus attack speed and marking. Where is this blizzard one ?

 

Spoiler

 

ooh how do you do the spoiler tag >.> I am such a forum noob. Thanks for the info I just now headed over there. If you explain how to add spoiler tags I can tell you where I got my two super awesome Estocs.



#38
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IMO the estoc is fine because of the weapon group it's in. There's no really good ranged weapon or really good one-handed weapon in that group, so if you pick Adventurer weapon it's gonna be just the estoc. You gain in maximal striking power but you won't participate in opening volleys and you won't be much good at tanking or hitting accurately when that's needed.

 

Don't nerf the estoc I say.


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#39
Matt516

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These armor penetration and related weapon balance issues are due to one thing:

During beta, some of the internal OE beta testers complained that the armor system confused them. It had something called Damage Threshold (what we now call DR) and the original Damage Reduction (percentile, not integer based like now). So weapons like the Estoc got through some DT but not the (old)DR. DT bypass was good but not as godly as it is now since player still had to deal with percentile DR. Also, weapon damages were lowered to accommodate for this change - this further amplified weapon imbalances created by the armor system.

The game still hasn't recovered weapon balance wise from the fateful decision to move away from its superior older armor system to move to the simple one it shipped with.

 

Eh... I wouldn't say that. Integer damage reduction may be hard to balance, but integer damage reduction with percentile damage reduction is even harder. If they really wanted to go with integer reduction, removing the percentile reduction was probably a good call. It's simpler as well.

 

Granted, the fast weapons conundrum is still an issue - but in my experience, most enemies that aren't specifically super resistant to some damage type have DR that is below what even a fast weapon does on a hit - so it's not a huge deal. It could certainly be balanced better, and I'm sure they're working on it. But just from playing the game, I've found most of my initial concerns from the Beta about the armor system to be relatively moot. Theoretical concerns aside, the game feels very good to play, and I'm using a variety of different fighting styles to considerable success on Hard.


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#40
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IMO the estoc is fine because of the weapon group it's in. There's no really good ranged weapon or really good one-handed weapon in that group, so if you pick Adventurer weapon it's gonna be just the estoc. You gain in maximal striking power but you won't participate in opening volleys and you won't be much good at tanking or hitting accurately when that's needed.

 

Don't nerf the estoc I say.

 

Fair enough. And after playing a bit more, I've found a few more enemies who are heavily resistant to piercing (as well as a few more who have less than 5 DR), so it's probably not that big a deal. I may have overstated the imbalance - as I said above, theoretical concerns about the mechanics aside, the game feels fantastic to play and I haven't felt like I'm being punished for using basically whatever weapons I feel like using. I'm playing on Hard, not PotD - but I'm liking the difficulty (at least this time around). In the Eothas temple (only long dungeon I've done), I had a few fights necessitating a reload due to party wipe - but when I came back the second (or third) time with better tactics, I was able to pull it through (and without ever having to leave to use the inn :) ).

 

Game feels good. Plays great. Much fun.


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