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Paladins could use some TDC (Tender Developing Care)


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Okay so I've been having a great time with the game, my only real issue with it is Paladins seem really underwhelming. As I play, I find myself thinking that I probably should have gone with a Fighter and that feeling only grows the more I keep seeing other players suggest that they're the best tanks.

So why should I even bother with the class that exists for that purpose when regular fighters can fulfil that purpose better?
So while playing, I ran into a weird situation where my Paladin VS a Fighter class enemy ended up stuck in a stalemate together.

My Paladin's deflection of course was too high for him to kill me anytime soon. But because Fighters continuously regenerate endurance, my Paladin ended up not having the power or even the accuracy to out pace the Fighter's regeneration.

So it works out that eventually the Paladin will die from losing all his endurance over a long period of time as you only limited ways of regenerating it, while the fighter essentially outlives and/or becomes unkillable from continuously regenerating more than what he loses.

That... doesn't seem right to me, a fighter is just that, a regular fighting character that's kind of okay at different melee stuff, a middle of the road character. This scenario was early game stuff, but I feel like it's really representitive of a bigger problem I'm already seeing.


When I looked at the "warrior" melee classes, I thought "Okay so Barbarians are all about wrecklessness and going crazy and probably capable of more damage than other melee classes, that makes sense" and then I saw Fighter and thought "So they're suppose to be a generic middle ground I guess? That makes sense"

Then I saw Paladin and thought "Great, holy powers, flame on my sword, unstoppable wall of righteousness he we come" Generally in most games that have a Paladin class, that's pretty much what you get, they can support and tank, but mostly they tank better than most if not all classes, or else what is their purpose?

But in my case, I'm finding that I have a character who does feel pretty defensive and that's okay, but then you see the accuracy and whatnot is pretty low and occasionally you'll hit something, and that's fine too because I am a glorious Paladin, as long as I can take all of your tin foil weapon attacks, I don't need to land a hit on you ever!

But wait, what is this? this regular looking guy called "Generic sword guy" coming on through with his awesome forever regeneration and amazing tanking potential who can also hit things more frequently than almost never.

Who is this god among men, why... ladies and Gentlemen, it's the Fighter!

So yeah, unless I'm crazy, I feel like there is some issues here, whether the Fighter is just overpowered or the Paladin is too underpowered I'm not really sure honestly, personally I feel like it might be the latter.

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I think paladins could use some spells , 4 circles of magic in order to be in par with other classes.

 

The Flames of Devotion could get a buff where its either Raw Burning Damage or an Attack that is not possible to miss so its actually something that makes a difference to be used.

 

Fighters are fine in my opinion, just paladins that could use some love.

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Paladins are more of a support orientated tank. They have really high overall defenses with Faith and Conviction and they can support the group with their Zealous Auras and Lay on Hands. Shieldbearers of St. Elcga are the most notable since they have a talent that also adds a Deflection bonus on top of the Endurance regen from Lay on Hands. Later on, they'll get Exhortations which can provide some handy buffs to your other members, especially if you're running two tanks.

 

Fighters on the other hand... well they can tank and never die but they lack any of the support options Paladins have. They can knock enemies prone and pull distant enemies towards them though. Generally, if you're looking for a straight up tank, Fighter is the way to go. If you're looking for a tank that can support the party with buffs, Paladin is the way to go (Or Chanter, but that's another story all together).

 

As for DPSing... they're honestly both outclassed by... the DPS classes. Paladins are definitely better than Fighters in this area though. Intense Flames and either Enduring Flames (Goldpact Paladin talent) or Remember Rakhan Field (Bleakwalker Talent) makes Flames of Devotion ridiculously powerful. You'll want an Estoc for this though, since it really bites if you miss with it.

Edited by Wolken3156
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Paladin is a supportive hybrid, not too dissimilar to the Chanter. They aren't meant to be the best tanks or the best damage dealers, but a combination of both that can also provide some supportive auras and abilities.

 

I think it'd do a lot of good for her abilities to naturally scale as she leveled up. Lay on Hands is very lackluster later on, especially compared to... just about any spell-based healing other classes get. It needs more uses per encounter or a higher output. Similarly, Flames of Devotion could use an accuracy boost. Paladins get a lot of good buff spells (all of which can be used before battle, I think) at later levels. I just feel like their two staples (LoH and FoD) need to scale better and the paladins will be just fine.

 

Also, I'm not particularly excited about either of the 'when a paladin slays an enemy' abilities; I shouldn't have to micromanage my DPS to move away from a near-dead enemy so that I can use a paladin ability.

Edited by Lasci
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Paladins are more of a support orientated tank. They have really high overall defenses with Faith and Conviction and they can support the group with their Zealous Auras and Lay on Hands. Shieldbearers of St. Elcga are the most notable since they have a talent that also adds a Deflection bonus on top of the Endurance regen from Lay on Hands. Later on, they'll get Exhortations which can provide some handy buffs to your other members, especially if you're running two tanks.

 

Fighters on the other hand... well they can tank and never die but they lack any of the support options Paladins have. They can knock enemies prone and pull distant enemies towards them though. Generally, if you're looking for a straight up tank, Fighter is the way to go. If you're looking for a tank that can support the party with buffs, Paladin is the way to go (Or Chanter, but that's another story all together).

 

As for DPSing... they're honestly both outclassed by... the DPS classes. Paladins are definitely better than Fighters in this area though. Intense Flames and either Enduring Flames (Goldpact Paladin talent) or Remember Rakhan Field (Bleakwalker Talent) makes Flames of Devotion ridiculously powerful. You'll want an Estoc for this though, since it really bites if you miss with it.

actually, the deflection bonus upgrade you get to flames of devotion is superior to the lay on hands one, AND it applies to everyone in your party, not just the person you laid hands on.

 

frankly, you don't need lay on hands.  there are tons of healing abilities, spells, potions, scrolls, etc.  but there is no substitute for flames of devotion/shielding flames.

 

+10 deflection to everyone, twice per combat, is better than +8 to one person, once per combat.  Only for shieldbearers though.

 

 

Edited by Ichthyic
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Generally in most games that have a Paladin class, that's pretty much what you get, they can support and tank, but mostly they tank better than most if not all classes, or else what is their purpose?

 

Generally in most games that have a Paladin they support and tank, but are not generally the best tank.  The best tank is generally a class that just tanks, no support.  The purpose of a Paladin is to offer a different play experience.  The PoE Paladin does that.

 

 

 

So while playing, I ran into a weird situation where my Paladin VS a Fighter class enemy ended up stuck in a stalemate together.

 

My Paladin's deflection of course was too high for him to kill me anytime soon. But because Fighters continuously regenerate endurance, my Paladin ended up not having the power or even the accuracy to out pace the Fighter's regeneration.

 

So it works out that eventually the Paladin will die from losing all his endurance over a long period of time as you only limited ways of regenerating it, while the fighter essentially outlives and/or becomes unkillable from continuously regenerating more than what he loses.

 

That sounds very much like you were solo.  If that's the case, then no wonder you're getting the impression that Fighters are better than Paladins.  Paladins are intended to support a group.  It makes sense that a Fighter is going to outperform a Paladin one-on-one, because for balance purposes the Paladin has to give up some personal oomph in return for making the rest of the party better.  If Paladins were as good as Fighters in every way plus also buffed the rest of the party, then no one would play Fighters.

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Guys, I just figured it out. It's very simple.


A Paladin
Level 1, No gear, attributes I picked.
A Fighter
Level 1, no gear equipped, same attributes as the Paladin yada yada.
Paladin Again
Deep Faith equipped and both reputations at their highest rank.

I did some experimenting and this is what I noticed.

The Passive isn't even working, in any capacity.
That explains so much.

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I feel that the flaming sword ability should be an AoE if it's only going to be used 2x per battle. Secondly, the paladin needs something that results in passive damage increase bonuses. For instance, the boosts to the flaming sword ability could be made permanent. 25% corrode damage is in no way, shape, or form overpowered or unbalanced. Just give them some talents or something that adds a natural damage increase. Or perhaps an increase in attack speed or lower the recovery penalty from armor. As it stands literally every single class is capable of more damage than the paladin. Hell, changing the focused enemy ability to encounter instead of rest would be enough. Monks and barbarians naturally do more damage. Fighters need only pick one or two and they're out-damaging the paladin. Ciphers, chanters, wizards and priests all have spells that do more damage than the paladin. But if they're given the same equipment as the paladin, for instance a 2her, they'll do the same damage just auto-attacking. Rogues and rangers do more damage as well, talents or not.

The buffs that the paladin brings aren't that good either. I mean, they're not bad, it's just that priests and druids are both capable of more damage and have better buffs than the paladin. There is no reason other than RP to bring a paladin. It is, without a doubt, the only pointless class in the game right now. And that's tremendously frustrating as I love the paladin from an RP point of view. And I feel as if only a few small changes would bump them up enough to at least be middle of the pack. By taking a sub-par damage dealer and combining it with a mediocre buffer you do not get a good all-arounder. You get a sub-par damage dealer capable of mediocre buffs.

And why on earth does the paladin start with lower accuracy than the fighter? Make the paladin really accurate and at least his hits would be hard. I just feel as if the class is lacking substantially. It's like all the pieces are there but they're scattered. Putting a few of them in place would push the class up to be far more reasonable.

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It was my understanding that paladins were supposed to be strong single-target damagers and tanks with supportive auras because they're essentially a leadership figure.

 

I've pulled off some nice crits with my buffed up Bleak Walker whom I set up for big time damage, but he can't really compare to the adventurers that I've created to test the classes out. Even the paladin I specced for 100% tanking lost out to Edér in the long run due to his lack of passive endurance regeneration and was barely able to keep the enemy occupied in larger fights due to his lack of bonuses to engagement.

 

I tend to really enjoy the paladin class and it's had its fair share of absolutely OP reiterations, but in PoE it feels lacklustre. 

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Guys, I just figured it out. It's very simple.

 

 

A Paladin

Level 1, No gear, attributes I picked.

A Fighter

Level 1, no gear equipped, same attributes as the Paladin yada yada.

Paladin Again

Deep Faith equipped and both reputations at their highest rank.

So, Paladin with maxed reputation (I guess that is toward endgame) and 1 talent have:

+13 Deflect, +27 Fort, +27 Refl, +27 Will

 

Fighter with 1 talent and 1 ability have:

x0.8 attack speed, +2 engaged, +15 Deflect, +10 Fort, +10 Refl, +10 Will

 

...

 

You know what, Fighter still better tank than Paladin, but that could be ok if Paladin had more or better unique abilities. I really don't like "on killing enemy" abilities, especially buffs, it should be applied to allies, affected by aura, or commands.

 

There are new approach in PoE system for classes - 3 chargeable classes:

Chanter - from chants (time based)

Monk from sustained damage

Cipher - from inflicted damage

 

I suspect that Paladin somewhat chargeable too, with "buff on kill" system, but personally I would like to see Paladins as Leader-like class:

 

Rework existing commands to have condition and effect on execution, something like that:

 

"Attack" = +Acc buff, apply AoE +Acc buff after 5 successful attacks 

"Evade" = +Delf buff, apply AoE +Defl buff after 5 enemy misses

"Withstand" = +DR buff like ironskin for 5 attacks, AoE heal after depletion

"Together" = +Damage buff versus target of Paladin, apply AoE +Damage buff after kill

 

With various bonuses from different orders on command executions.

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You know what, Fighter still better tank than Paladin

not from your own numbers.

 

+2 better deflection, but loses 17 in comparison to all other defenses?

 

uh, buddy, that means the pally wins hands down on the defense front.

 

cobine that with shielding flames, for another +10 deflection... to everyone...  plus the outworn buckler, that only palys can use, and adds ANOTHER plus 5 defense... to everyone during combat.

 

plus auras.

 

sorry, but no, the paly is the better defensive tank.  people who are saying the fighter is better are just wrong.  the ONLY thing the fighter has going for it is that it can aggro one more enemy at a time than the paly can.

 

that's it really.

 

I've had eder with me since level 2, and even though he has 17 might, and a better weapon than mine, and should be attacking faster than my tanky paladin.... I see my paly still has more overall damage tallied from using the flames of devo ability all the time... and that's a paly PURELY designed as a tank, with only 11 might (and that from bonuses).

 

 

Edited by Ichthyic
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Ugh, I guess its too early to discuss right builds with so much bugs around, I just noticed that my Eder have 100+ deflect and other defenses, guess from bug that turn temporary buffs into permanent ones. Thats why he was so superior to my paly.

 

Tank usually need high deflect to tank swarms of melee enemies, other defenses not as much important, also 4 reputation is somewhat around 8-10 char lvl I suppose, its lategame.

Also Fighter have defender that give +15 deflect, have instant buff +20 defenses to self, have 2 knockdowns to deal with ranged guys, who target other party members.

 

I gave him arbalest and unique warhammer (+1 engagement, so 4 total) and shield, usually send him ahead and then paralyze ones who haven't stuck with him. Thing I value most is number of engaged enemies, so my squishy casters could debuff and deal damage.

Edited by ErlKing
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Personally I like the idea of the Paladin as a Commander Archetype, but started to get a bit disappointed because they don't really scale well with levels compared to other classes. Given the title of the thread I thought I'd try my hand at class balancing.

 

General Overview
  • Encounter Powers are pooled (ie using lay on hands uses the same usage pool as flames of devotion).
  • Extra Encounter powers to cover each order.
  • Order Passives redesigned to allow control rather than RNG
 
Encounter Abilities
Flames of Devotion
Does it's job, No Change
Bleak Walkers automatically gain FoD at level 1
 
Lay on Hands
Reduced to 20 base healing for additional uses.
Kind Wayfarers automatically gain LoH at level 1
 
Shared Burden (New)
Redirects 50% Damage the targeted ally would take to the Paladin
Shield-bearers automatically gain SB at level 1
 
Circle of Flame (New)
Creates a wall of flame that damages enemies passing through.
Darcozzi Paladini automatically gain CoF at level 1
 
Watchful Gaze (New)
Allies in a small area are immune to flanking.
Goldpact Knights automatically gain WG at level 1
 
Order Passives
Shieldbearers of St. Elcga 
Resolute Order (Replacing Shielding Flames) - Grants 4 DR to nearby Allies on giving a Command
Shielding Touch - Using Shared Burden Grants Deflection to the target and the Paladin.
 
Bleak Walkers 
The Black Path - Using a Command creates a fear effect in foes.
Remember Rakhan Field - No change, Bleak Walkers blow enemies up, it's their thing.
 
Kind Wayfarers 
Strange Mercy - Using a Command heals allies around the Paladin
Sword and the Shepherd - Using Lay on Hands on a target increases their damage by 15% for 10 seconds
 
Goldpact Knights 
Enduring Flames - Allies protected by Watchful Gaze retaliate with fire damage
Bond of Duty - Modfied to Allies near the Paladin using any Command 
 
Darcozzi Paladini 
Inspiring Voice - Grant Allies an Accuracy Boost on using a Command
Fires of Darcozzi Palace - Gain a Weak Fire Shield on using Circle of Flame.
 
Level Progression
1 - Gain Order based Encounter and choose 1 more
2 - Trait Pick
3 - Class Ability, +1 Encounter Use
4 - Trait Pick
5 - Class Ability, +1 Encounter Choice
6 - Trait Pick
7 - Class Ability,+1 Encounter Use
8 - Trait Pick
9 - Class Ability, +1 Encounter Choice
10 - Trait Pick
11 - Class Ability,+1 Encounter Use
12 - Trait Pick
Edited by Chaosbroker
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I fired up a Cipher build and, by Berath's endless cycle, they're the class everyone else wants to be.  They can attack every defense possible at least by 3rd level if not at 1st and some/all of the their spells get +5-10 accuracy against non-Deflection defenses!

 

I think Paladins should be able to choose Flames or LoH at 1st level in the same way that Ciphers and Wizards choose spells, and there probably ought to be more ways to alter the effects of both (more casts, extra damage effects a la AoE bomb on LoH for example, etc.).

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Game isn't balanced around tank 1vs1s. Paladin is a strong tank/support character. Fighter tanks have higher accuracy and their own regen but that will rarely matter while they're being supported by a party. Paladin support OTOH is invaluable for helping your lower defense characters with dispels, lay on hands, revives, and of course an aura.

 

 

 

Although I will say for PotD especially I could really use a fast mode for combat sometimes, when I have only a tank and one enemy left with the rest of my party down...ouch. It can be painful watching high deflection low accuracy things battle it out.

 

 

Also, it'd be nice if Paladins had a little more options for damage builds than mostly just 2x Flames of Devotion. You miss one or two of those and you just want to cry.

Edited by Odd Hermit
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Game isn't balanced around tank 1vs1s. Paladin is a strong tank/support character. Fighter tanks have higher accuracy and their own regen but that will rarely matter while they're being supported by a party. Paladin support OTOH is invaluable for helping your lower defense characters with dispels, lay on hands, revives, and of course an aura.

 

 

 

Although I will say for PotD especially I could really use a fast mode for combat sometimes, when I have only a tank and one enemy left with the rest of my party down...ouch. It can be painful watching high deflection low accuracy things battle it out.

 

 

Also, it'd be nice if Paladins had a little more options for damage builds than mostly just 2x Flames of Devotion. You miss one or two of those and you just want to cry.

 

 

I like quite a few of the suggestions in this thread. I'd also really like a talent for paladins that changes your Faith and Conviction into an offensive ability, similar to Aggrandizing Radiance for priests.

Paladin building is really quite boring.

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Try a flame build paladin. The battle forged increases in DMG by 2 per lvl. At 5th you can retaliate twice if your dracozzi and if you choose vulnerable they ignore 5 pts of resist. With my Palidan having 19 Dr and 80ish deflect that gets you (with 19 str) about 10-20 retaliation on anyone hitting him while being close to unkillable. With added talents and lvl 10 this can become about 50+ fire DMG per retaliation.

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Another Paladin Idea:

 

Paladin automatically get commands and oaths depending on Order, that will define their style of game.

 

Oath - self buff, with condition, execute condition - buff end, but you get Command.

Command - buff to ally, also with condition, execute condition - buff end, but recharge "Holy" abilities and Oath for Paladin.

 

Also execution of Oath and Commands applies various AoE Buffs or debuffs.

 

 

Shieldbearers of St. Elcga

Oath - Engage - add 2 extra engagement to Paladin, condition - engage 3 enemies.

Command - Defend - +20 to Defenses, condition - 2 miss or graze in row.

Bleak Walkers

Oath - First blood - +50% Attack speed, condition - damage someone for more than 30% endurance.
Command - Finish him - +100% damage buff vs enemy with less than 30% endurance, condition - kill enemy.

 

Kind Wayfarers 

Oath - Protect other - +50 Interrupt, condition - interrupt someone, who attacking party member.
Command - Helping Hand - +15 Accuracy vs Paladin's target, condition - hit same target twice.

 

Goldpact Knights

Oath - Keep Calm - +15 Accuracy, +15 Deflect , *0.8 attack speed, condition - 3 hits or crits in row. 

Command - Endure - +10 DR for 5 hits (iron skin), condition - 5 hits depletion.

 

Darcozzi Paladini

Oath - Gamble -  -5 Accuracy, -10 Deflect,  *1.5 attack speed,  condition  - 3 hits or crits in row.
Command - Shuffle - +30 Disengage defense, stun enemy on disengage, condition - disengage.

 

 

"Holy" abilities:

- Flames of Devotion

- Lay on Hands

- Sworn enemy

etc

Edited by ErlKing
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Try a flame build paladin. The battle forged increases in DMG by 2 per lvl. At 5th you can retaliate twice if your dracozzi and if you choose vulnerable they ignore 5 pts of resist. With my Palidan having 19 Dr and 80ish deflect that gets you (with 19 str) about 10-20 retaliation on anyone hitting him while being close to unkillable. With added talents and lvl 10 this can become about 50+ fire DMG per retaliation.

 

That is also my build, not to mention Dracozzi order gives Inspiring Liberation that give you another +10 accuracy.

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Shielding Flames affects all nearby allies within 5.0m (does not work with an aura they have to be already in range to benefit), but not the paladin, provides +10 deflection for 10sec does some minor damage (+50% burn) and can be used twice. It is a considerable buff for your front Line, excluding the Paladin.

 

Shielding Touch can be used on any team member including the Paladin within 3.0m, provides +8 deflection for 10sec and provides a beefy heal of 33.3 endurance. Can be used only once. This is your emergency button.

 

I prefer the second, because it provides more aimed benefits. It is a life saver for the character in need.

Edited by Mysh
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Guys, I just figured it out. It's very simple.

 

 

A Paladin

Level 1, No gear, attributes I picked.

A Fighter

Level 1, no gear equipped, same attributes as the Paladin yada yada.

Paladin Again

Deep Faith equipped and both reputations at their highest rank.

 

I did some experimenting and this is what I noticed.

 

The Passive isn't even working, in any capacity.

That explains so much.

That ability isn't active outside of combat.

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