So, the plot.

[TheFearlessOne]

First of all, thanks to everyone for the discussion that helped me understand the main plot better. The plot was murky and the set-up with the Gods could have been better. It's obvious they tried to make invest more into the Gods and the lore surrounding them  (gaining the gods' favor and the whole Durance side-quest were designed with that in mind), but it just wasn't enough to make you really appreciate the revelation (which, in that world, would obviously have been a major one) at the end.

 

After reading this topic, I'm convinced the driving force behind the main plot events is Woedica trying to grab the throne and become an all-powerful God. The motivations behind it and the implications it would bring are unclear, and could be better explained if you ask me, but maybe that's something for the sequel. However, it's obvious it would disrupt the balance of the pantheon. Also, Woedica needs souls to empower her power-grab, and thus, she has stolen countless souls from the cycle, causing the Hollowborn epidemic. Therefore, she has to be stopped.

 

At some point, Eothas found out about the plan and used Waidwen to try and stop it. Whether he was actually Waidwen himself or merely used him as a plan is open to interpretation (although I find the second more likely), the fact is, he failed due to the Godhammer. It also seems likely that Magran had blessed the Godhammer, but whether she was in on the Woedica's plan or merely tried to prevent Eothas from overstepping (again, second one more likely for me personally) is once again not specified.

 

Thaos has been guarding the secret that Gods aren't "real". Some of the reasoning might seem broken at first glance, but if you think about it, it really isn't. The Engwithians sacrificed their whole civilization to create Gods and bring order to a world it desperately needed at that point. However, that order would have crumbled if people found out that Gods had been constructed by kith. Thaos had been tasked with keeping it a secret for those reasons and that's what he has been doing for countless generations, using whatever means necessary. For him, he simply cannot risk letting people know the secret, because he and his people have sacrificed too much and he has devoted too much time to all this. He has done horrible things to fulfill the impossible task he has been given and due to this, he has become a twisted man who is willing to do anything just to keep doing his job.

 

I think the role of animancy has been overplayed in this thread. I don't think they would have found out the secret any time soon, but Thaos was just trying to disturb them so he would be the only one in control of souls. Also, if animancy would have progressed further, they would have found a cure to Waidwen's legacy and thus destroyed the soul-stealing plan along with Woedica's plot. As animancers were dealing with souls and distrusted by the population anyway, it was easy to make them take the fall for the Hollowborn and provide cover to the overall conspiracy.

 

It's also unclear at what point, and why, did Thaos and Woedica decide to align with each other. This, along with the fact that there are TWO parallel major conspiracies (Woedica's power-grab vs. Leaden Key secrecy about the Gods being fake) seems to be the main thing that makes the endgame murky and confusing. It's almost as if the developers had two separate ideas and then tried to press them both into the game, tying them together loosely. While both the plots are excellent on their own, using both of them just creates confusion. Many of these holes might be filled with an expansion, and there has to be some room for speculation and mystery as well. Overall, the game and the writing are still wonderful, and the fact that we're here discussing the finer points of the plot simply proves that point.

[Achilles]

I would be very surprised if we don't see a lot more of Woedica in either Part 2 or the expansion(s).

 

In other words, I see a lot of people complaining that this aspect of the story is underdeveloped. My response is that it seems underdeveloped because we've only seen Act 1.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

I think the plot is a glorious ode to atheism and a kick in the nuts to religion.

 

I think the message is way more muddled than that (and not in a good way). I also don't think that's the sort of thing Obsidian would do, regardless of their personal beliefs. Their stories tend to be more nuanced than just "atheism = good, religion = bad." Much like how it's not that simple in real life.

[Achilles]

I don't know. Call it confirmation bias, but it seemed pretty blatant to me.

[Ormag]

I've helped woedica in the ending of my second playthrough, and she didn't seem all too ''evil''. She was more sensible than most other 'gods'.

[Evange]

Where are the Pillars!

[Achilles]

They're at the end.

[Psychevore]

 

I think the plot is a glorious ode to atheism and a kick in the nuts to religion.

 

I think the message is way more muddled than that (and not in a good way). I also don't think that's the sort of thing Obsidian would do, regardless of their personal beliefs. Their stories tend to be more nuanced than just "atheism = good, religion = bad." Much like how it's not that simple in real life.

 

Really now?

 

Gods do not exist.

Man creates Gods.

 

*badumtss*

[InfiniteEternity]

Hey, thanks for not using spoiler tags. I really appreciate it.

Ok so welcome to the SPOILER FORUM TO YOU TOO.

 

 

Some people are really daft-

[InfiniteEternity]

Thaos ix Arkannon = L. R. Hubbard.

[Psychevore]

Thaos ix Arkannon = L. R. Hubbard.

Can you see the lawyers piling up in front of your door yet?

[Wulfram]

 

 

I think the plot is a glorious ode to atheism and a kick in the nuts to religion.

 

I think the message is way more muddled than that (and not in a good way). I also don't think that's the sort of thing Obsidian would do, regardless of their personal beliefs. Their stories tend to be more nuanced than just "atheism = good, religion = bad." Much like how it's not that simple in real life.

 

Really now?

 

Gods do not exist.

Man creates Gods.

 

*badumtss*

 

 

Gods Eat Man

Woman inherits the earth

[WebShaman]

Aaaand it starts again at the begining...

 

I wanted an ending where I absorb the souls, kill all the gods, return the borrowed souls to the Wheel and take over The Leaden Key.

 

Who needs false gods, anyway?

[Holofaust]

I've helped woedica in the ending of my second playthrough, and she didn't seem all too ''evil''. She was more sensible than most other 'gods'.

Same, my interpretation is that Woedica exists to keep all the Gods in check and to maintain the status quo which I happened to agree with. What I don't understand is why she was deposed in the first place.

[WebShaman]

I think you answered your own question. Obviously the gods don't like someone controlling them...

 

Basically, she has no "check" to balance things, so she just got more and more authoritive until they ended her.

Edited April 19, 2015 by WebShaman

[dododad]

 

Hey, thanks for not using spoiler tags. I really appreciate it.

Ok so welcome to the SPOILER FORUM TO YOU TOO.

 

 

Some people are really daft-

 

 

Yeah, like the ones getting riled up by two week old posts...

Edited April 19, 2015 by dododad

[Karkarov]

Just as an aside OP I am not sure you caught it or if someone mentioned it but Thaos does not have eternal life.  He dies just like everyone else.  However Woedica is gaming the system on his behalf and makes sure he always resurrects as the same person and keeps all his memories.  So even though he is being reborn she keeps him outside the system so that he can keep doing his work into eternity.  I guess this is also sort of appropriate because the implication is the Engwithan society got wiped out in a sacrifice to create the gods to begin with... a sacrifice Thaos was actually running.

 

Also if you pay close attention at end game (especially if you hash it out with Durance) it is heavily implied the whole Waidwen thing was Eothas attempting to invade Dyrwood to stop Woedica's plans before they could really take off.  Unfortunately the other gods either weren't 100% down with what he was doing or were not as aware of the situation as he was and worked against him probably because they were afraid of him gaining too much power regardless of his intentions.  Hence Magran (and probably Abyddon) helping to make the Godhammer bomb.  It is also worth mentioning that the game isn't super clear about whether or not Eothas is actually "dead".

[Manart]

...  It is also worth mentioning that the game isn't super clear about whether or not Eothas is actually "dead".

 

In my epilogue, Eder joins the underground cult of Eothas in Dyrwood despite knowing that Eothas wasn't "real" and is probably dead, which speaks volumes about his dedication to the ideals his god represents, even if the god himself may or not have fell short of it. I do hope an expansion that reveals the truth about Waidwen's War and Eothas' role in it would be forthcoming since I find that aspect of the lore quite fascinating. The poor guy deserves to know the truth and put his faith to rest at the very least.

[WebShaman]

Eder already knows the truth (that the gods are false and that Waiden was a real Avatar of Eothas). His "conundrum" is why did his brother do as he did.

 

Aaaaand of course the answer is like ALL others - you never find out. I mean...you talk with the gods, I,m sure it would be an easy thing to find out "by the way, could you tell me X"

 

And that is still yet another irksome thing about the game - no matter how hard you as a Player try to help the Companions, the Developers don't allow closure options, even though ingame you have access to such power and knowledge.

[dododad]

They honestly underdeveloped main story to a level where subplots of Eothas and Magran became the most interesting parts of it. The big bombshell that Gods are Engwithan construct falls completely flat in delivering a closure to the game. It's not that it isn't trying to be grand and meaningful, it just doesn't achieve that.

 

There is a fine line in epic and pathetic, and I believe they actually crossed it. Pc and party reactions feel forced, scripted to a degree, and what's most important, unbelievable. Most of them are fully rooted in their believes, and then with a simple reveal everyone quickly and fully changes their opinions. Even tho, that's exactly what didn't happen to PC in his first life. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work. Given a sooner reveal, and some more time for pc and party to deal with it, it could be managed, but as it is, it feels completely forced.

 

 

 

Anyway, forgetting all that Thaos and Iowara nonsene, I'll also go into speculating about the interesting part of the story. Eothas, and Magra.

 

Game tells us that Waidwen was going bananas and was spreading chaos in Readceres, making Dyrwoodans afraid of open war, but they are also curiously vague as to who actually invaded who. In Dyrwood it's commonly known that it was an invasion, but are we completely sure that it was Readceres that invaded first? We learn of no Redcerean account, there is a curious decision to switch sides by Eders brother, and Webb also talks about 'keeping terrifying' truths from the people. So we go by two books and both are interesting:

 

Dyrwood Part 6:

"...Eothas, marched on the Dyrwood from Readceras, beginning The Saint's War. The Dyrwood rallied at Halgot Citadel and took the battle to him in Readceras, attempting to prevent as much damage to their own land as they could. Even though there were devastating losses for the Dyrwoodan forces, using Hadret's military techniques combined with Galven Regd's strategies, they were able to secure a few victories for themselves as well. Readceran forces made their way into the Dyrwood through White March - unopposed by the locals at Cold Morn - leaving Mercy Vale burned and devastated."

1. Eothas marched on Dyrwood (did he actually invade?)

2. Dyrwood rallies at Halgot/Godhammer and attacks him in Readceras. (why, isn't he in Dyrwood? is Dyrwood the one staring the war?)

3. Readceres invades Dyrwood through White March, uncontested by locals at first. (why uncontested? retribution for invasion of Readceras?)

 

Saint's War 1:

"It is widely accepted that the event that instigated it was the sanctuary flight of Readceran citizens to the Dyrwood. This led to direct strife between the two nations that escalated into battle"

"The people of the Dyrwood knew that they could not sustain explosive population growth if Waidwen's rule were to continue unchecked. They also feared that his eye would turn from Readceras and land on them next if nothing was done. This was exactly what ultimately happened, and open war broke out as Waidwen moved to spread his dominion into the lands of Dyrwood."

"At the beginning of the war the Dyrwood rallied at Halgot Citadel and took the battle to him in Readceras, attempting to prevent as much damage to their own land as they could."

 

Again nothing to say who started the war. The cause is said to be flight of Readcerans into Dyrwood, but part about war starting with spread of dominion is again vague. That dominion can be understood as invasion, or it can only be religious subversion. Rallying at Halgot is again curious. Why rally at the border of the invading country if you are already invaded?

 

What's obvious is that there was a religious conflict between Eothas and Magra. We learn very little about the causes of it. Waidwen goes crazy and starts destroying temples. End makes it almost certain that it was Eothas working through Waidwen to do that, but the causes are again obscured. Did he as Engwithan construct rebels against that idea and is in turn he the one attacked by Magra, who may be in league with Woedica as well, to hide it?

Edited April 19, 2015 by dododad

[Grimo88]

Eder already knows the truth (that the gods are false and that Waiden was a real Avatar of Eothas). His "conundrum" is why did his brother do as he did.

 

Aaaaand of course the answer is like ALL others - you never find out. I mean...you talk with the gods, I,m sure it would be an easy thing to find out "by the way, could you tell me X"

 

And that is still yet another irksome thing about the game - no matter how hard you as a Player try to help the Companions, the Developers don't allow closure options, even though ingame you have access to such power and knowledge.

 

It's the first game in a new universe, and a new series. 

 

Why do you want them to exhaust all their mysteries and wrap up everything in a neat little package in Game One? 

 

Also, Obsidian are masters of their craft. I would wager if they haven't wrapped something up, then it isn't through laziness, but by choice. Hell it's a theme that is constant through the whole goddamn game, that the truth is elusive, and most people go to their graves not knowing answers to life's great questions JUST LIKE WE DO. It's just like Wael says: the seeking of the knowledge is more important than the answer. I mean, it's spelled out for you right there as a major theme in the game. 

[Rumpelstilskin]

So, is there nothing special that connects the PC to Thaos (contrary to what the story up to the end leads you to believe), or did I miss it? After Iowara dropped a bombshell about the gods being artificial pretty much in the first sentence, and then added there were deeper secrets that only Thaos knew, I was genuinely worried that it was going to be an "I'm your father" thing. Thank god(s) it didn't come to that, but he also added almost nothing to what she said, so it was a bit anticlimactic.

 

Also, does this made-up religion completely sidestep the subject of who created the world and its inhabitants, or did I also miss it? It's not uncommon for polytheistic religions to be rather sketchy about it, but usually there's at least come cursory explanation.

[Manart]

...you talk with the gods, I,m sure it would be an easy thing to find out "by the way, could you tell me X"

 

I'm pretty sure you can't talk to Eothas while doing the gods' quests and none of the other gods could probably gave Eder a straightforward answer.

 

And while I'm not really keen on the "not everything is going to be answered right away" thing Obsidian is doing with this game, I respect their decision to do it and look forward to see where they take this series to in the future.

[Rostere]

Game tells us that Waidwen was going bananas and was spreading chaos in Readceres, making Dyrwoodans afraid of open war, but they are also curiously vague as to who actually invaded who. In Dyrwood it's commonly known that it was an invasion, but are we completely sure that it was Readceres that invaded first? We learn of no Redcerean account, there is a curious decision to switch sides by Eders brother, and Webb also talks about 'keeping terrifying' truths from the people. So we go by two books and both are interesting:

 

Dyrwood Part 6:

"...Eothas, marched on the Dyrwood from Readceras, beginning The Saint's War. The Dyrwood rallied at Halgot Citadel and took the battle to him in Readceras, attempting to prevent as much damage to their own land as they could. Even though there were devastating losses for the Dyrwoodan forces, using Hadret's military techniques combined with Galven Regd's strategies, they were able to secure a few victories for themselves as well. Readceran forces made their way into the Dyrwood through White March - unopposed by the locals at Cold Morn - leaving Mercy Vale burned and devastated."

1. Eothas marched on Dyrwood (did he actually invade?)

2. Dyrwood rallies at Halgot/Godhammer and attacks him in Readceras. (why, isn't he in Dyrwood? is Dyrwood the one staring the war?)

3. Readceres invades Dyrwood through White March, uncontested by locals at first. (why uncontested? retribution for invasion of Readceras?)

 

Saint's War 1:

"It is widely accepted that the event that instigated it was the sanctuary flight of Readceran citizens to the Dyrwood. This led to direct strife between the two nations that escalated into battle"

"The people of the Dyrwood knew that they could not sustain explosive population growth if Waidwen's rule were to continue unchecked. They also feared that his eye would turn from Readceras and land on them next if nothing was done. This was exactly what ultimately happened, and open war broke out as Waidwen moved to spread his dominion into the lands of Dyrwood."

"At the beginning of the war the Dyrwood rallied at Halgot Citadel and took the battle to him in Readceras, attempting to prevent as much damage to their own land as they could."

 

Again nothing to say who started the war. The cause is said to be flight of Readcerans into Dyrwood, but part about war starting with spread of dominion is again vague. That dominion can be understood as invasion, or it can only be religious subversion. Rallying at Halgot is again curious. Why rally at the border of the invading country if you are already invaded?

 

What's obvious is that there was a religious conflict between Eothas and Magra. We learn very little about the causes of it. Waidwen goes crazy and starts destroying temples. End makes it almost certain that it was Eothas working through Waidwen to do that, but the causes are again obscured. Did he as Engwithan construct rebels against that idea and is in turn he the one attacked by Magra, who may be in league with Woedica as well, to hide it?

 

Thanks for this interesting tidbit, I hadn't noticed this yet.

[sivasdahling]

So, is there nothing special that connects the PC to Thaos (contrary to what the story up to the end leads you to believe), or did I miss it? After Iowara dropped a bombshell about the gods being artificial pretty much in the first sentence, and then added there were deeper secrets that only Thaos knew, I was genuinely worried that it was going to be an "I'm your father" thing. Thank god(s) it didn't come to that, but he also added almost nothing to what she said, so it was a bit anticlimactic.

 

Also, does this made-up religion completely sidestep the subject of who created the world and its inhabitants, or did I also miss it? It's not uncommon for polytheistic religions to be rather sketchy about it, but usually there's at least come cursory explanation.

 

There is most definitely a connection between your character and Thaos!  In the past you betrayed a woman who you cared about deeply on Thaos' orders because she claimed the gods did not exist.  If she was right, you're actions had meaning, were horrible!  You tried to ask Thaos this question but were refused an answer, and this haunted you till you died.  Meeting Thaos in the context of the Biawac reignited this question in your soul, which is why you ultimately needed to find him and ask it to him, in order to get some closure.  

 

PoE I think is like Torment, in that it is based around a fundamental question, which in Torment's cased was "What can the change the nature of a man?"  In PoE this question is left unstated, but is probably something like, "if the meanings we ascribe to our lives turn out to be false, what can we do about it?"  The problem I think is that unlike Torment, PoE tries to be subtle, and I'm not sure subtlety works in this case.