[HUGE ending spoiler discussion] Eothas

[Longknife]

*****Turn back now if you don't want to be spoiled, I'm jumping right into this and spoiling things asap***

 

 

 

 

I've yet to see this pointed out, maybe I missed it though:

 

Is Eothas the one true God? Think about it.

 

Eothas supposedly wanted to march on the Dyrwood and was killed. (or rather his human incarnation was) Eder and others will mention this seemed highly out of character for Eothas, thus they believed him a false prophet.

 

Given the game's storyline and plot, I think Eothas functions as the fallback for religious players who don't like some of the more atheist implications of the plot question.

 

AKA, was Eothas the one true God?

 

Eothas marching on the Dyrwood makes sense: assume he's an actual God (not the fake kind) and therefore is aware of what's going on in Dyrwood. He wants to conquer the area not out of needless warfare, but to show the people that all other gods are false and to destroy the Engwithian machines. The Engwithian Gods however are sentient, even if they are more or less AI programs, and thus they don't want this to happen, thus they conspire against him. Magran and Woedica in particular take offense and see to it that Eothas is removed.

 

  This is supported by the fact that Eothas is absolutely nowhere to be found amongst the list of Gods in Twin Elms and thus is not an Engwithian construct. There's no broken altar to him that suggests he existed and was later removed, he was just never amongst them to begin with. He is not an Engwithian God.

 

This also manages to tie in with the Legacy so that you COULD in some ways interpret Eothas still holds sway, because while you can have the logical conclusion that you are the one to stop the Legacy, you can also make the faith-based conclusion Eothas was ultimately responsible in some ways and was appeased to when you stopped the false Gods. Yes yes, I realize this is illogical in the sense you HAVE the logic neccesary to conclude you did it, but if you're faith-inclined, you could argue Eothas has a hand in it too and of course you cannot be disproven.

 

 

 

Thoughts on this?

[Orchomene]

In Teir Evron, you can find a book for every of the 11 gods.

There are 6 shrines that are related to (1) Woedica (2) (Skaen)/Rymrgand/(Ondra) (3) Wael (4) Berath (5) Hylea (6) (Magran)/Galawain/(Abydon)

So every god doesn't have a shrine for itself. Only the gods that mean something for the Glanfathans, it appears. So it may be possible that Eothas doesn't appear on the ground because he is dead. Being a god mostly for farmers, he be related to another god for the Glanfathans, like Hylea, maybe (gods of sky/wind/light/air...). Like there is a shrine for Galawain but not for Magran, because those gods share some alliance/relation (through fire).

 

The great "truth"/discovery of the Engwithians is that there is no god. Why wouldn't have they found Eothas but he is found 2000 years later ? Why wouldn't have Thaos destroyed the Eothan religion before if he wasn't an Engwithian god ?

 

Many elements couldn't fit well with the psychology of Thaos if Eothas is not an Engwithian god.

I think he is not in Teir Evron just because he is no more a god/alive. That's all.

[Longknife]

In Teir Evron, you can find a book for every of the 11 gods.

There are 6 shrines that are related to (1) Woedica (2) (Skaen)/Rymrgand/(Ondra) (3) Wael (4) Berath (5) Hylea (6) (Magran)/Galawain/(Abydon)

So every god doesn't have a shrine for itself. Only the gods that mean something for the Glanfathans, it appears. So it may be possible that Eothas doesn't appear on the ground because he is dead. Being a god mostly for farmers, he be related to another god for the Glanfathans, like Hylea, maybe (gods of sky/wind/light/air...). Like there is a shrine for Galawain but not for Magran, because those gods share some alliance/relation (through fire).

 

The great "truth"/discovery of the Engwithians is that there is no god. Why wouldn't have they found Eothas but he is found 2000 years later ? Why wouldn't have Thaos destroyed the Eothan religion before if he wasn't an Engwithian god ?

 

Many elements couldn't fit well with the psychology of Thaos if Eothas is not an Engwithian god.

I think he is not in Teir Evron just because he is no more a god/alive. That's all.

 

 

But that's the thing: you cannot feasibly disprove a God. If I tell you right now there is an all-powerful being watching our every movement and ask you to prove me wrong, you cannot. It can't be disproven because anything you could throw at me, I can argue that my God planned for that or purposefully misled you or whatever.

 

  As such, we are left to presume the Engwithians did not actually somehow disprove the existence of gods, but that they simply failed to find proof of one time and time again until that was undeniably the most logical conclusion for them to make.

 

And yeah, his symbol being absent is what I was talking about, not the absence of an altar. Is there a symbol that appears on the floor but does not actually speak to you at some point in time or is Eothas the only one?

 

I'm not claiming to know for certain Eothas is a real god or the like, I'm merely stating I find it interesting that the presentation allows for such an interpretation to exist.

[Ganrich]

Awesome thread, Longknife. I actually think not having Eothas explained as definitively being dead or alive is a tell that we don't know everything, yet. I hope that makes sense. I don't think that situation is as cut and dry as it seems for sure. I am expecting the definitives of Eothas' fate will be part of the upcoming expansion or sequel. I look at Baldur's Gate, and I think of its ending and how it leaves you with unanswered questions. How many brothers and sisters do you have? This game has a lot of similarities to the first BG story-wise.

 

BG has a group corrupting ore, using bandits to block trade, etc to get a position of political and financial power over a region. In PoE we have a group of fanaticals using ancient machines to cause chaos, they assassinate political figures, etc to cause the populace to blame animancy. Because Animancy could cause the whole facade of the Gods to fall down. Both are conspiracy stories. PoEs expansion will be like Tales of the Sword Coast. They seem to be riffing somewhat off BG. Without copying or emulating.

 

I expect if PoEs sequel follows similar parallels with Baldur's Gate 2 we will see more on Eothas. I was half expecting us to run across him (or pieces of him) along our way in this game. Waidwen's

 

Eothas has one thing special about him: he is he only God that has taken physical form on Eora. That we know of anyway. This means it is easy to see him as something special. This could be intentional, or not. I don't disagree with you, though. I remain unsure. the first Hollowborn come within a year of the Godhammer. Could the some of the machines been turned on prior to the hammer falling on Eothas? Did the bomb destroy his soul or push it from Waidwen's body? How could Durance survive his proximity while others are destroyed? We are told the Machines act like magnets to souls. It would allow them to get Eothas out of the picture if the bomb just pushed the soul out to be collected by a Pillar, cause the locals to blame his demise for Hollowborn, and allow a campaign against animancy in other areas one stroke. Eothas' soul, if that thought pattern is correct, could have to go through the cycle of souls now. This could mean it is a matter of time before he pops back up.

 

I also find it odd that Eothas and Thaos are almost anagrams. Not that I think Thaos is Eothas, but it is an odd coincidence. Could mean something, but probably me looking for clues letting me see them where I will.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ganrich

[Peanuckle]

 

In Teir Evron, you can find a book for every of the 11 gods.

There are 6 shrines that are related to (1) Woedica (2) (Skaen)/Rymrgand/(Ondra) (3) Wael (4) Berath (5) Hylea (6) (Magran)/Galawain/(Abydon)

So every god doesn't have a shrine for itself. Only the gods that mean something for the Glanfathans, it appears. So it may be possible that Eothas doesn't appear on the ground because he is dead. Being a god mostly for farmers, he be related to another god for the Glanfathans, like Hylea, maybe (gods of sky/wind/light/air...). Like there is a shrine for Galawain but not for Magran, because those gods share some alliance/relation (through fire).

 

The great "truth"/discovery of the Engwithians is that there is no god. Why wouldn't have they found Eothas but he is found 2000 years later ? Why wouldn't have Thaos destroyed the Eothan religion before if he wasn't an Engwithian god ?

 

Many elements couldn't fit well with the psychology of Thaos if Eothas is not an Engwithian god.

I think he is not in Teir Evron just because he is no more a god/alive. That's all.

 

 

But that's the thing: you cannot feasibly disprove a God. If I tell you right now there is an all-powerful being watching our every movement and ask you to prove me wrong, you cannot. It can't be disproven because anything you could throw at me, I can argue that my God planned for that or purposefully misled you or whatever.

 

  As such, we are left to presume the Engwithians did not actually somehow disprove the existence of gods, but that they simply failed to find proof of one time and time again until that was undeniably the most logical conclusion for them to make.

 

And yeah, his symbol being absent is what I was talking about, not the absence of an altar. Is there a symbol that appears on the floor but does not actually speak to you at some point in time or is Eothas the only one?

 

I'm not claiming to know for certain Eothas is a real god or the like, I'm merely stating I find it interesting that the presentation allows for such an interpretation to exist.

 

You can't prove a negative (prove that something doesn't exist) at all. It's impossible. All you can do is build a body of evidence that suggests something does or doesn't exist. The Engwithans searched long and hard with all their magic and science, and found nothing but the Wheel.

 

If Eothas were a "true god," then why would he have hidden himself from the Engwithans only to reveal himself so blatantly later on? Why would he descend to a mortal rather than using his god-powers (which he must have, if he was the creator) to accomplish his goals?

 

Woedica wanted Eothas dead because he was moving to counter her plot. Magran wanted him dead because by incarnating on the world, he was breaking the rules of the gods removing the need for trials and tribulations; why bother seeking to better yourself if you can just follow the living god?

 

He doesn't have a shrine in Twin Elms because, as was said, he's dead. Anyone still following him isn't getting anything out of it. The temple of Eothas is an abandoned wreck haunted by monsters.

[Darkpriest]

well correct me if I am wrong, but The Wheel existed before the Engwithian "gods" right?

 

It might be funny, when it will appear later on, that there in fact is some kind of higher power that engineered the souls and wheel cycle, but is beyond the reach of comprehension even of the "construct gods". After all Engwithians merely achieved immensivly great animancy proficiency but they are not behind the creation of the Wheel and the circulation of souls as well as the way the souls were created. They can influence their flow and how the Wheel behaves, but they are not behind the creation of the cycle. At some point souls had to be created in one way or another. We have little knowledge of how religions behaved in Engwithian time,s but there were religions, yet we have only a one perspective on them, Thaos' perspective, and Ivonia is very vague about her refound true faith other than say that there are no gods (or that the Engwithian gods are not gods).

 

Is it possible that there were miracles happening before the Engwithian gods were created? I say, yes, but we have no knowledge about it, nor on how the souls and the world was created. So there is still place for a REAL higher power, but it would probably not be as responsive as the construct gods, and probably more in line what we have in real life and be a subject to speculations rather than facts, even though there sometimes are events that go beyond our current understanding of the world

Edited April 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Longknife]

Awesome thread, Longknife. I actually think not having Eothas explained as definitively being dead or alive is a tell that we don't know everything, yet. I hope that makes sense. I don't think that situation is as cut and dry as it seems for sure. I am expecting the definitives of Eothas' fate will be part of the upcoming expansion or sequel. I look at Baldur's Gate, and I think of its ending and how it leaves you with unanswered questions. How many brothers and sisters do you have? This game has a lot of similarities to the first BG story-wise.

 

BG has a group corrupting ore, using bandits to block trade, etc to get a position of political and financial power over a region. In PoE we have a group of fanaticals using ancient machines to cause chaos, they assassinate political figures, etc to cause the populace to blame animancy. Because Animancy could cause the whole facade of the Gods to fall down. Both are conspiracy stories. PoEs expansion will be like Tales of the Sword Coast. They seem to be riffing somewhat off BG. Without copying or emulating.

 

I expect if PoEs sequel follows similar parallels with Baldur's Gate 2 we will see more on Eothas. I was half expecting us to run across him (or pieces of him) along our way in this game. Waidwen's

 

Eothas has one thing special about him: he is he only God that has taken physical form on Eora. That we know of anyway. This means it is easy to see him as something special. This could be intentional, or not. I don't disagree with you, though. I remain unsure. the first Hollowborn come within a year of the Godhammer. Could the some of the machines been turned on prior to the hammer falling on Eothas? Did the bomb destroy his soul or push it from Waidwen's body? How could Durance survive his proximity while others are destroyed? We are told the Machines act like magnets to souls. It would allow them to get Eothas out of the picture if the bomb just pushed the soul out to be collected by a Pillar, cause the locals to blame his demise for Hollowborn, and allow a campaign against animancy in other areas one stroke. Eothas' soul, if that thought pattern is correct, could have to go through the cycle of souls now. This could mean it is a matter of time before he pops back up.

 

I also find it odd that Eothas and Thaos are almost anagrams. Not that I think Thaos is Eothas, but it is an odd coincidence. Could mean something, but probably me looking for clues letting me see them where I will.

 

 

Maybe it's the cynical part of me, but I personally think that...

 

Well quite frankly, the reality is that some people might hear Pillars' story and take offense, thinking the game has an athiest agenda for example. I don't think that's the actual intention, but rather the story is one of individuality, inner strength, and doing things because you think it's the right thing to do, not because someone else told you to. As such, the game needs a failsafe to suggest it's not about religion, and I think that failsafe is Eothas. I don't expect to ever see any concrete answers regarding him, I just expect ambiguous presence so as to foster the potential belief that Eothas is actually the one true god within the Pillars universe, the truth in that being the case or not being fully up to interpretation.

 

 

I too expect to see him again (or at least his name and whispers of him and his work), but I do NOT expect to ever see definitive answers about him, Waidwen, or his motivations.

 

 

 

If Eothas were a "true god," then why would he have hidden himself from the Engwithans only to reveal himself so blatantly later on? Why would he descend to a mortal rather than using his god-powers (which he must have, if he was the creator) to accomplish his goals?

 

 

Again, I do not expect logic here. I consider Eothas to function as a failsafe, open to interpretation. The questions you ask are very warranted, but they also cannot be answered or explained. If Eothas chose a hands-off approach of never confirming his existence, then obviously there would be reluctance to show himself to the Engwithians. Would a God let humankind force his hand? Though then again, one would question why Eothas cannot simply sabotage the machine and make it explode or the like. Perhaps he thought that in doing so, the Engwithians would be determined to rebuild it, and if the machines continued to explode, they WOULD recognize how inexplainable it is, conclude there's an outside power influencing their project, and determine his existence?

 

  If Eothas has a goal of his existence being unknown, then the method of appearing as a mortal human serves this purpose as people have doubts, and directly destroying the machine via warfare provides a solution that won't be called into question.

 

 

But ALL of this is pure speculation and we cannot rely on any of it, because we don't know the Pillars universe or how a God - if one exists - would think or work. We do not know if Eothas would even be all-powerful or if immediate intervention with the Engwithians would be possible.

 

I did not make this thread in hopes of pinpointing what Eothas is, or claiming that I could do so. I merely made this thread to highlight Eothas' function as a wild card. He can show how humans can and will ALWAYS have capacity to believe in something, he can show the potential for actual divine forces, and he can show room for tons of future speculation.

 

 

 

He doesn't have a shrine in Twin Elms because, as was said, he's dead. Anyone still following him isn't getting anything out of it. The temple of Eothas is an abandoned wreck haunted by monsters.

 

 

Twin Elms is thousands of years old. It predates anything else in the game, save for other Engwithian tech. It's older than even the books within it that explain who Eothas is. (the presence of that book is more the mystery) I'm arguing that I think we would see some form of evidence the machine within Twin Elms did at one time show Eothas if Eothas was infact an Engwithian construct. We would see a non-functional altar to pray at, or see his constellation on the floor.

 

Alternatively, some may theorize Eothas was an Engwithian construct who developed a way to become human, and Woedica/Magran for whatever reason opposed this.

 

 

Again, all we can do is speculate, as Eothas was designed as a loose end that we cannot tie up in order to instill doubt and question within us.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Longknife

[Darkpriest]

Well as far as Eothas is concerned, he is/was an Engwithian construct, but that does not mean that there is not higher power and "true gods/god" in the setting. After all Engwithians did not create the Wheel, they only discovered it and managed to establish a high level of control what allowed them to play the role of gods.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Longknife]

Well as far as Eothas is concerned, he is/was an Engwithian construct

 

Do you have evidence for this? Cause if so, I missed it.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Longknife

[dukefx]

 

In Teir Evron, you can find a book for every of the 11 gods.

There are 6 shrines that are related to (1) Woedica (2) (Skaen)/Rymrgand/(Ondra) (3) Wael (4) Berath (5) Hylea (6) (Magran)/Galawain/(Abydon)

So every god doesn't have a shrine for itself. Only the gods that mean something for the Glanfathans, it appears. So it may be possible that Eothas doesn't appear on the ground because he is dead. Being a god mostly for farmers, he be related to another god for the Glanfathans, like Hylea, maybe (gods of sky/wind/light/air...). Like there is a shrine for Galawain but not for Magran, because those gods share some alliance/relation (through fire).

 

The great "truth"/discovery of the Engwithians is that there is no god. Why wouldn't have they found Eothas but he is found 2000 years later ? Why wouldn't have Thaos destroyed the Eothan religion before if he wasn't an Engwithian god ?

 

Many elements couldn't fit well with the psychology of Thaos if Eothas is not an Engwithian god.

I think he is not in Teir Evron just because he is no more a god/alive. That's all.

 

 

But that's the thing: you cannot feasibly disprove a God. If I tell you right now there is an all-powerful being watching our every movement and ask you to prove me wrong, you cannot. It can't be disproven because anything you could throw at me, I can argue that my God planned for that or purposefully misled you or whatever.

 

  As such, we are left to presume the Engwithians did not actually somehow disprove the existence of gods, but that they simply failed to find proof of one time and time again until that was undeniably the most logical conclusion for them to make.

 

And yeah, his symbol being absent is what I was talking about, not the absence of an altar. Is there a symbol that appears on the floor but does not actually speak to you at some point in time or is Eothas the only one?

 

I'm not claiming to know for certain Eothas is a real god or the like, I'm merely stating I find it interesting that the presentation allows for such an interpretation to exist.

 

Eothas is grouped with Hylea. He doesn't appear when you pray to Hylea like Magran and Abydon when you pray to Galawain because he is dead. His symbol isn't there for the same reason.

[Darkpriest]

 

Well as far as Eothas is concerned, he is/was an Engwithian construct

 

Do you have evidence for this? Cause if so, I missed it.

 

 

Aside of him being mentioned together with Hylea, being mentioned in the revolt vs Woedicka, and being killed by Magran because he broke their internal rule.... not much i guess.

[Longknife]

 

 

Well as far as Eothas is concerned, he is/was an Engwithian construct

 

Do you have evidence for this? Cause if so, I missed it.

 

 

Aside of him being mentioned together with Hylea, being mentioned in the revolt vs Woedicka, and being killed by Magran because he broke their internal rule.... not much i guess.

 

 

 

We're talking about a theology made up thousands of years ago. Nothing you've said suggests he's Engwithian.

 

What I was suggesting is that perhaps Eothas predates Engwithian belief systems OR somehow sprung up afterwards and has managed to survive where other belief systems (as mentioned by Thaos, before the time of Engwithian gods) have not. That he has interacted with Engwithian gods or been presumed to be a part of the same circle of Gods does not neccesarily imply that he is one of them. We have absolute confirmation that the other gods are all constructs, for Eothas we have nothing.

[Darkpriest]

the point is, he would invalidate the whole point of Engwithians found no gods point made by Ivonia point and she would know about his existence, again, he broke their internal rules and was dismantled/destroyed for that. If Magran knew how to destroy it it ought to be one of them and not some god who would "merely" interact with them.

 

THAT said, it does not mean that there are no "real gods" in the setting, since the religions as you pointed out, existed before and during Engwithian times and the sole existence of the souls and The Wheel indicates that there might be real higher power(s) behind all that. It's just that Eothas is not within that kind of true higher power.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Longknife]

the point is, he would invalidate the whole point of Engwithians found no gods point made by Ivonia point and she would know about his existence, again, he broke their internal rules and was dismantled/destroyed for that. If Magran knew how to destroy it it ought to be one of them and not some god who would "merely" interact with them.

 

THAT said, it does not mean that there are no "real gods" in the setting, since the religions as you pointed out, existed before and during Engwithian times and the sole existence of the souls and The Wheel indicates that there might be real higher power(s) behind all that. It's just that Eothas is not within that kind of true higher power.

 

 

But:

 

1) You cannot disprove the existence of a God. This is fact. Try and disprove God in real life right now. You cannot. It's impossible for the Engwithians to do so aswell, meaning they only achieved overwhelming logical evidence (or lack thereof) that no God exists. It would not be impossible or even hard for Eothas to remain off the radar for them.

 

2) We do not know that Magran destroyed or killed Eothas, merely that the mortal vessel allegedly used by Eothas was killed. Eothas could still very much be in existence.

 

3) What's the line about "knew the internal rules and was dismantled/destroyed for it?" There's no evidence for this. If this were the case you'd think there'd be evidence for it, and that the gods would've redirected someone towards dismantling him, not towards bombing some guy claiming to be him.

 

 

Listen I get this is a bit frustrating in the sense my theory theoretically cannot be disproven....but that's exactly what a God is. And that's what I think the purpose of Eothas is: he's the failsafe for players who want to believe in a God. Unless there is evidence that is conclusively (keyword there, since even a book could be of questionable origin, though a book should still be looked over) highlighting Eothas to be an Engwithian construct of Engwithian origin that is no longer functional, then the possibility exists that Eothas is a real God.

 

The point is Eothas is a loose end. We never discover what became of him. We don't know his origin. The motivation for Eothas to march on Dyrwood (to dismantle the false Gods) and the motivation for Woedica and Magran to oppose him (to remain the strongest and to remain Gods of the world, not to mention defend themselves) is definitely there and plausible.

 

With this game you have to look at it like a piece of literature. You have to ask yourselves "why did they do things this way" and "what did Obsidian intend for us to conclude from this?" Eothas being left as a loose end? That's either shoddy writing or Eothas functioning as a failsafe for us to speculate off of and question if the gods really don't exist. It's ALSO possible he was a construct like the rest but has since been dismantled or deactivated or the like, but for that we need definitive proof. When that proof is lacking, the assumption falls to him being a failsafe.

[Darkpriest]

I think you just want the failsafe to be Eothas, while a lot points to that he was just a mere Engwithian construct, but i guess until Josh will tell that himself yo will stay on your belief.

 

I trust that there is the failsafe there still, but it is the sole existence of souls and The Wheel as the cycle for those souls. We also know NOTHING about the cosmology, i.e. how the planet looks, how the universe was created, etc. so there is a lot of potential for the existence of "real higher power" and that is the failsafe itself.

 

The game also points to ponder on the question, "what if all that you believed in was proved to be false?" would you maintain integrity, would you still follow your way of life? perhaps you would try to find the real higher power and believe that you are still rewarded with better existence in the next cycle when you will move through the Wheel.

 

It also ask the question, what if we would come to the point of being able to play as gods. Again, failsafe is already there, it is just not Eothas.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Longknife]

I think you just want the failsafe to be Eothas, while a lot points to that he was just a mere Engwithian construct, but i guess until Josh will tell that himself yo will stay on your belief.

 

 

No I'm just asking for evidence of this. The most that's been suggested thusfar is "a book about him is found within Twin Elms." Aside from that, no commentary is offered in regards to his absence.

 

Is it unreasonable to ask for evidence? We have definitive proof the others are Engwithian constructs. We know next to nothing about Eothas except that a guy made a very convincing proclaimation to be a God (he glowed) and made a very out-of-character assault on the Dyrwood for some reason. Therefore, confirmation that Eothas was a false God too does not exist.

[Orchomene]

As far as we know, when the Engwithian created their own gods, they destroyed all other religions through use of inquisition.

Thus, all the established religions are the religions of the 11 Engwithian gods. Eothas being one of the established religions up to recent times, it seems obvious he is considered as an Engwithian gods by Thaos and the inquisitors. Otherwise, its religion would have destroyed 2000 years ago.

 

That doesn't mean there is no other god, being unique or multiple. Just that Eothas is a construct god. That also doesn't mean that Eothas is dead for ever or anything like that.

The fact there is no constellation of Eothas in Teir Evron is no proof there wasn't before he died. The constellations are appearing dynamically when you put the Adra into the machine.

 

I too think we will hear again about Eothas, being that the PC is its reincarnation or anything else.

[Gallenger]

Well the other interesting point to be hide - sorry for disregarding you OP - is that if the soul trapping machines were active during the Saint's War (which I assume they were), that means that the "soul" entity-thing of Eothas may've been captured by the machine itself - unless the godhammer destroyed the soul construct entirely.

 

Obviously that works for Woedica's God rebirthing bit, since she'd be absorbing the power of a dead God - or the player's post-final battle choices may have had a HUGE impact on the game world, being as you may've unleashed the soul of a dead God into the world, destroyed it, hidden it, or whatever have you.   

Edited April 2, 2015 by Gallenger