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Understanding the stronghold

Stronghold Hirelings

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#41
mudd1

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In short, you seem unable to criticize without resorting to excessive hyperbole, otherwise known as being a drama queen.  If you toned down the hyperbole and stuck to the logic of your points, you'd make much more convincing arguments.

 

I'm trying to remember when I last heard such a call for moderation being said on the internet, a place that is famous for being anything but. Usually, the one that can shout their point the loudest in the most drastic language wins in that at least they get vastly more attention from either side of a debate. So this truly impressed me. In an ideal world it shouldn't but in this one it does. 


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#42
Ceranai

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In short, you seem unable to criticize without resorting to excessive hyperbole, otherwise known as being a drama queen.  If you toned down the hyperbole and stuck to the logic of your points, you'd make much more convincing arguments.

 

I'm trying to remember when I last heard such a call for moderation being said on the internet, a place that is famous for being anything but. Usually, the one that can shout their point the loudest in the most drastic language wins in that at least they get vastly more attention from either side of a debate. So this truly impressed me. In an ideal world it shouldn't but in this one it does. 

 

besides which you werent really overstating it tbh. The stronghold is useless, the only thing ive enjoyed it for is the endless paths but over than that its actually just a money sink nd a rubbish one at that. Mine is almost fully upgraded and it still feels dead as hell. How much effort would it be to drop some NPC farmers and villagers to make it fell less like an empty castle. Dont even get me started on hirelings lol.



#43
Eggnog

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I wish it was possible to opt out of the stronghold, like "No, I won't stay.  In fact, it's all yours,Steward.  Here is the deed".  Maybe the option to opt out is there and I missed it.  But it appears to me that the best you can do is repair the barbican, get out of Dodge, and don't look back.  But I think it's still your stronghold, though I don't know how much that matters if you don't do anything to repair it.



#44
Crucis

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In short, you seem unable to criticize without resorting to excessive hyperbole, otherwise known as being a drama queen.  If you toned down the hyperbole and stuck to the logic of your points, you'd make much more convincing arguments.

 

I'm trying to remember when I last heard such a call for moderation being said on the internet, a place that is famous for being anything but. Usually, the one that can shout their point the loudest in the most drastic language wins in that at least they get vastly more attention from either side of a debate. So this truly impressed me. In an ideal world it shouldn't but in this one it does. 

 

besides which you werent really overstating it tbh. The stronghold is useless, the only thing ive enjoyed it for is the endless paths but over than that its actually just a money sink nd a rubbish one at that. Mine is almost fully upgraded and it still feels dead as hell. How much effort would it be to drop some NPC farmers and villagers to make it fell less like an empty castle. Dont even get me started on hirelings lol.

 

 

I utterly disagree that the Stronghold is "useless".  That's rubbish.  Does it seem less than great?  Sure.  I can accept that in a heart beat.  Less than exciting?  Yep.   Seems difficult to get your investment in the repairs back?  Yep.   But useless?  No way.  This is what I mean by hyperbole.  If you got nothing other than access to the dungeon and the game warden bounty missions, it'd still have value.  Even if you got no resting bonuses at all, it'd still be a free place to rest when you wanted to crawl up out of the dungeon, before heading back out to do other quests.  Even if the merchants had literally nothing to sell, even a single merchant where you could sell off your loot from the dungeon or various other quests would have value.

 

Saying that the SH is useless is just plain wrong.  Saying that it underperforms and could be better, perhaps much better, would be entirely fair.



#45
Crucis

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I wish it was possible to opt out of the stronghold, like "No, I won't stay.  In fact, it's all yours,Steward.  Here is the deed".  Maybe the option to opt out is there and I missed it.  But it appears to me that the best you can do is repair the barbican, get out of Dodge, and don't look back.  But I think it's still your stronghold, though I don't know how much that matters if you don't do anything to repair it.

 

 

I think that it was possible to opt out, though it's been long enough since I chose to do it that I can't be certain. 

 

It seems to me that the problem with not accepting is that you will miss out on the Game Warden's bounty missions, and you might possibly get locked out of the Endless Paths dungeon (at least I've read someone here claiming to have gotten locked out for unknown reasons), both of which are great for earning lots of XP and money.



#46
Koth

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In short, you seem unable to criticize without resorting to excessive hyperbole, otherwise known as being a drama queen.  If you toned down the hyperbole and stuck to the logic of your points, you'd make much more convincing arguments.

 

I'm trying to remember when I last heard such a call for moderation being said on the internet, a place that is famous for being anything but. Usually, the one that can shout their point the loudest in the most drastic language wins in that at least they get vastly more attention from either side of a debate. So this truly impressed me. In an ideal world it shouldn't but in this one it does. 

 

besides which you werent really overstating it tbh. The stronghold is useless, the only thing ive enjoyed it for is the endless paths but over than that its actually just a money sink nd a rubbish one at that. Mine is almost fully upgraded and it still feels dead as hell. How much effort would it be to drop some NPC farmers and villagers to make it fell less like an empty castle. Dont even get me started on hirelings lol.

 

 

I utterly disagree that the Stronghold is "useless".  That's rubbish.  Does it seem less than great?  Sure.  I can accept that in a heart beat.  Less than exciting?  Yep.   Seems difficult to get your investment in the repairs back?  Yep.   But useless?  No way.  This is what I mean by hyperbole.  If you got nothing other than access to the dungeon and the game warden bounty missions, it'd still have value.  Even if you got no resting bonuses at all, it'd still be a free place to rest when you wanted to crawl up out of the dungeon, before heading back out to do other quests.  Even if the merchants had literally nothing to sell, even a single merchant where you could sell off your loot from the dungeon or various other quests would have value.

 

Saying that the SH is useless is just plain wrong.  Saying that it underperforms and could be better, perhaps much better, would be entirely fair.

 

People exaggerating on the interwebz? no... really? (For the record I agree with you).



#47
HozzM

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In short, you seem unable to criticize without resorting to excessive hyperbole, otherwise known as being a drama queen.  If you toned down the hyperbole and stuck to the logic of your points, you'd make much more convincing arguments.

 

I'm trying to remember when I last heard such a call for moderation being said on the internet, a place that is famous for being anything but. Usually, the one that can shout their point the loudest in the most drastic language wins in that at least they get vastly more attention from either side of a debate. So this truly impressed me. In an ideal world it shouldn't but in this one it does. 

 

besides which you werent really overstating it tbh. The stronghold is useless, the only thing ive enjoyed it for is the endless paths but over than that its actually just a money sink nd a rubbish one at that. Mine is almost fully upgraded and it still feels dead as hell. How much effort would it be to drop some NPC farmers and villagers to make it fell less like an empty castle. Dont even get me started on hirelings lol.

 

 

I utterly disagree that the Stronghold is "useless".  That's rubbish.  Does it seem less than great?  Sure.  I can accept that in a heart beat.  Less than exciting?  Yep.   Seems difficult to get your investment in the repairs back?  Yep.   But useless?  No way.  This is what I mean by hyperbole.  If you got nothing other than access to the dungeon and the game warden bounty missions, it'd still have value.  Even if you got no resting bonuses at all, it'd still be a free place to rest when you wanted to crawl up out of the dungeon, before heading back out to do other quests.  Even if the merchants had literally nothing to sell, even a single merchant where you could sell off your loot from the dungeon or various other quests would have value.

 

Saying that the SH is useless is just plain wrong.  Saying that it underperforms and could be better, perhaps much better, would be entirely fair.

 

 

I disagree with you completely.  The two pieces of the Stronghold that have merit are the Od Nua Dungeon and the Bounties.  Both of which could have been tacked on, literally, anywhere else in the game. 

 

The rest of the Stronghold is RP/window dressing at best, garbage and a waste of time and money at worst.

 

edit: Specifics:

 

Resting...why would anyone choose to rest here?  Money is no object in this game.  So 'free' resting is not a strength.  Further, there are better bonuses in almost every inn.  Lastly, and most importantly, resting in CN has more loading screens and in-map travel time to deal with than other rest areas.

 

The Merchants...they are really a slap in the face.  First off, for the purposes of selling, there are Merchants on tons of maps.  So just being able to BUY a merchant to put here, is not a point in the Stronghold's favor.  But maybe the merchants would offer you unique items, or at the very least, a discount.  Nope on both counts.

 

What else is there?  The Prestige/Security concept.  This is broken.  Hirelings are terrible, if you auto-resolve combats you lose buildings which can cost you literally 5K+ cp.  Even in a game where money is trivial, this is ****.  The attack events are cool the first time but really you have nothing to gain from them.

 

Adventures and random guests?  Great idea, just like the Stronghold.  But also like the Stronghold, terrible execution.  The guest do nothing other than cost you money or time.  The adventures sound great!  Legendary adventure?  Sign me up!  Wait the rewards are a ****ing scroll and some common crafting mats?  What?

 

The Stronghold, as it is implemented, is objectively worse than almost every other type of content in the game (I say almost but I literally can not think of any system or content in the game that I dislike more).  Saying that is not whining, its providing valuable feedback to Obsidian and doing a service to both them and their customers.  


Edited by HozzM, 12 April 2015 - 08:25 PM.

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#48
Gromnir

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

1. Bandits take nearly as much as I earn through taxes even though I have much higher security than prestige. How are the bandits so effective if I have sky-high security? This means that I'll earn something like 50 copper. Camping just once is more expensive than this, and what's worse is that when I subtract the cost of hirelings, I'm losing quite a bit of money.

 

2. It seems that hirelings are paid per day, but taxes are earned per turn. This means that you can never generate infinite wealth, but you can LOSE infinite wealth. Is that really true?

 

I do like the stronghold, don't get me wrong, but so far all it does is cost me money. A lot of money. I understand that you can get resting bonuses, sure, but for the thousands I spend upgrading the stronghold, I'm sure I could have gotten a full game's worth of resting bonuses from inns.

 

What am I missing here?

 

PS: If it had generated taxes per day, it would have made sense. Sure some nutty people could have gained infinite wealth, but does that really matter?

the keep poses a ridiculous difficult balancing problem for the developers.  in a game with abundant copper/gold, making the keep produce copious amounts o' wealth for the player would be inimical to their overall design philosophies.  sure, the player wants something for their investment in the keep, but rewarding with gold is bad.  the keep could be an effective gold sink, but so far, players appear less than enthusiastic with the results.   a gold sink is not a popular feature in single-player crpgs.  get a largely cosmetic or illusory benefit from a huge currency investment works in an mmo 'cause conspicuous consumption is an exploitable social failing.  what is the point o' such stuff in a single-player game, eh?  

 

likewise, the keep should not be providing enormous amounts o' additional xp, but it does via the bounties.

 

am realizing that it sounds a bit silly, but the keep, ideally, should reward you with nothing, and make you happy with your nothingness.

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#49
Crucis

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In short, you seem unable to criticize without resorting to excessive hyperbole, otherwise known as being a drama queen.  If you toned down the hyperbole and stuck to the logic of your points, you'd make much more convincing arguments.

 

I'm trying to remember when I last heard such a call for moderation being said on the internet, a place that is famous for being anything but. Usually, the one that can shout their point the loudest in the most drastic language wins in that at least they get vastly more attention from either side of a debate. So this truly impressed me. In an ideal world it shouldn't but in this one it does. 

 

besides which you werent really overstating it tbh. The stronghold is useless, the only thing ive enjoyed it for is the endless paths but over than that its actually just a money sink nd a rubbish one at that. Mine is almost fully upgraded and it still feels dead as hell. How much effort would it be to drop some NPC farmers and villagers to make it fell less like an empty castle. Dont even get me started on hirelings lol.

 

 

I utterly disagree that the Stronghold is "useless".  That's rubbish.  Does it seem less than great?  Sure.  I can accept that in a heart beat.  Less than exciting?  Yep.   Seems difficult to get your investment in the repairs back?  Yep.   But useless?  No way.  This is what I mean by hyperbole.  If you got nothing other than access to the dungeon and the game warden bounty missions, it'd still have value.  Even if you got no resting bonuses at all, it'd still be a free place to rest when you wanted to crawl up out of the dungeon, before heading back out to do other quests.  Even if the merchants had literally nothing to sell, even a single merchant where you could sell off your loot from the dungeon or various other quests would have value.

 

Saying that the SH is useless is just plain wrong.  Saying that it underperforms and could be better, perhaps much better, would be entirely fair.

 

 

I disagree with you completely.  The two pieces of the Stronghold that have merit are the Od Nua Dungeon and the Bounties.  Both of which could have been tacked on, literally, anywhere else in the game. 

 

The rest of the Stronghold is RP/window dressing at best, garbage and a waste of time and money at worst.

 

edit: Specifics:

 

Resting...why would anyone choose to rest here?  Money is no object in this game.  So 'free' resting is not a strength.  Further, there are better bonuses in almost every inn.  Lastly, and most importantly, resting in CN has more loading screens and in-map travel time to deal with than other rest areas.

 

The Merchants...they are really a slap in the face.  First off, for the purposes of selling, there are Merchants on tons of maps.  So just being able to BUY a merchant to put here, is not a point in the Stronghold's favor.  But maybe the merchants would offer you unique items, or at the very least, a discount.  Nope on both counts.

 

What else is there?  The Prestige/Security concept.  This is broken.  Hirelings are terrible, if you auto-resolve combats you lose buildings which can cost you literally 5K+ cp.  Even in a game where money is trivial, this is ****.  The attack events are cool the first time but really you have nothing to gain from them.

 

Adventures and random guests?  Great idea, just like the Stronghold.  But also like the Stronghold, terrible execution.  The guest do nothing other than cost you money or time.  The adventures sound great!  Legendary adventure?  Sign me up!  Wait the rewards are a ****ing scroll and some common crafting mats?  What?

 

The Stronghold, as it is implemented, is objectively worse than almost every other type of content in the game (I say almost but I literally can not think of any system or content in the game that I dislike more).  Saying that is not whining, its providing valuable feedback to Obsidian and doing a service to both them and their customers.  

 

 

Hozz, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with anyone who resorts to hyperbole such as saying that something is "garbage and a waste of time and money".  If you can't discuss a topic and try to convince someone without resorting to hyperbole, then it seems to me that you're going to have a hard time making your case, because some people will be turned off by the hyperbole.

 


Edited by Crucis, 12 April 2015 - 09:21 PM.


#50
Epsilon Rose

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

1. Bandits take nearly as much as I earn through taxes even though I have much higher security than prestige. How are the bandits so effective if I have sky-high security? This means that I'll earn something like 50 copper. Camping just once is more expensive than this, and what's worse is that when I subtract the cost of hirelings, I'm losing quite a bit of money.

 

2. It seems that hirelings are paid per day, but taxes are earned per turn. This means that you can never generate infinite wealth, but you can LOSE infinite wealth. Is that really true?

 

I do like the stronghold, don't get me wrong, but so far all it does is cost me money. A lot of money. I understand that you can get resting bonuses, sure, but for the thousands I spend upgrading the stronghold, I'm sure I could have gotten a full game's worth of resting bonuses from inns.

 

What am I missing here?

 

PS: If it had generated taxes per day, it would have made sense. Sure some nutty people could have gained infinite wealth, but does that really matter?

the keep poses a ridiculous difficult balancing problem for the developers.  in a game with abundant copper/gold, making the keep produce copious amounts o' wealth for the player would be inimical to their overall design philosophies.  sure, the player wants something for their investment in the keep, but rewarding with gold is bad.  the keep could be an effective gold sink, but so far, players appear less than enthusiastic with the results.   a gold sink is not a popular feature in single-player crpgs.  get a largely cosmetic or illusory benefit from a huge currency investment works in an mmo 'cause conspicuous consumption is an exploitable social failing.  what is the point o' such stuff in a single-player game, eh?  

 

likewise, the keep should not be providing enormous amounts o' additional xp, but it does via the bounties.

 

am realizing that it sounds a bit silly, but the keep, ideally, should reward you with nothing, and make you happy with your nothingness.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It could also reward you with intangibles or things that change your power orthogonally. Here are a few possible ideas off the top of my head:

 

  • Being able to directly access the resting option from the travel screen and the travel screen from anywhere in the keep. Possibly ditto for the merchants. This would allow you to skip loading screens, which doesn't effect in game power in the slightest but would be an incredibly nice feature.
  • Being able to leave a companion at a structure for a number of quests and respec them (possibly to varying degrees, depending on how long you leave them). This wouldn't change a hypothetical player's power, since they could have theoretically made any of those choices to start with, but it could let them correct early game mistakes or make the game more pleasant. It could also make it easier to try out new builds.
  • Move enchantments from one weapon to another or strip enchantments from a weapon and salvage their components. This would let you experiment with enchantments more and put interesting enchantments on weapons you're more likely to use, but it doesn't actually give you anything new.
  • Have the merchants take custom orders for a slight markup (I want a weapon with these enchantments and get me these ingredients while you're at it). This could, potentially increase a player's power, but at least they'd be paying to get the things.
  • Training room where you can spawn monsters (who would drop no loot and grant no XP) to fight against and test new strategies.

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#51
Crucis

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

1. Bandits take nearly as much as I earn through taxes even though I have much higher security than prestige. How are the bandits so effective if I have sky-high security? This means that I'll earn something like 50 copper. Camping just once is more expensive than this, and what's worse is that when I subtract the cost of hirelings, I'm losing quite a bit of money.

 

2. It seems that hirelings are paid per day, but taxes are earned per turn. This means that you can never generate infinite wealth, but you can LOSE infinite wealth. Is that really true?

 

I do like the stronghold, don't get me wrong, but so far all it does is cost me money. A lot of money. I understand that you can get resting bonuses, sure, but for the thousands I spend upgrading the stronghold, I'm sure I could have gotten a full game's worth of resting bonuses from inns.

 

What am I missing here?

 

PS: If it had generated taxes per day, it would have made sense. Sure some nutty people could have gained infinite wealth, but does that really matter?

the keep poses a ridiculous difficult balancing problem for the developers.  in a game with abundant copper/gold, making the keep produce copious amounts o' wealth for the player would be inimical to their overall design philosophies.  sure, the player wants something for their investment in the keep, but rewarding with gold is bad.  the keep could be an effective gold sink, but so far, players appear less than enthusiastic with the results.   a gold sink is not a popular feature in single-player crpgs.  get a largely cosmetic or illusory benefit from a huge currency investment works in an mmo 'cause conspicuous consumption is an exploitable social failing.  what is the point o' such stuff in a single-player game, eh?  

 

likewise, the keep should not be providing enormous amounts o' additional xp, but it does via the bounties.

 

am realizing that it sounds a bit silly, but the keep, ideally, should reward you with nothing, and make you happy with your nothingness.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It could also reward you with intangibles or things that change your power orthogonally. Here are a few possible ideas off the top of my head:

 

  • Being able to directly access the resting option from the travel screen and the travel screen from anywhere in the keep. Possibly ditto for the merchants. This would allow you to skip loading screens, which doesn't effect AFFECT in game power in the slightest but would be an incredibly nice feature.
  • Being able to leave a companion at a structure for a number of quests and respec them (possibly to varying degrees, depending on how long you leave them). This wouldn't change a hypothetical player's power, since they could have theoretically made any of those choices to start with, but it could let them correct early game mistakes or make the game more pleasant. It could also make it easier to try out new builds.
  • Move enchantments from one weapon to another or strip enchantments from a weapon and salvage their components. This would let you experiment with enchantments more and put interesting enchantments on weapons you're more likely to use, but it doesn't actually give you anything new.
  • Have the merchants take custom orders for a slight markup (I want a weapon with these enchantments and get me these ingredients while you're at it). This could, potentially increase a player's power, but at least they'd be paying to get the things.
  • Training room where you can spawn monsters (who would drop no loot and grant no XP) to fight against and test new strategies.

 

 

Some interesting ideas here.  :thumbsup:

 

Not sure I like idea of changing the enchantment on an item beyond merely upgrading it.  OTOH, the idea of custom orders is interesting.

 

Don't particularly like the idea of being able to respec pre-made NPC's either.  They should be made reasonably well in the first place.  To me, this smacks of powergaming which I'm honestly not a fan of.  Hell, in a game like this, if I had my druthers, I'd set some hard caps below which a character's stats could not go.  Extreme min-maxing of stats in IWD2 always bothered me, because the idea of having a character running around with the intelligence of a ferret or a toad just seemed wrong to me, and still does.  But if the devs are going to provide a mega-hard game mode, then I suppose that role playing concerns sort of fly out the window and the idea of "realistic" stats with it.

 

Back to pre-made NPCs.  A different way to deal with them could go something like this.  As long as the # of pre-mades was small, what could be done is provide the character's scripted background, dialogs, and so forth.  And have their class and race and so forth be fixed, but let the player select the NPC's distribution of stat points, skill points, and other abilities and talents.  This would let the player customize the NPCs to be more to his liking.  Having said that, this could seem like a lot of work for people who are really new to this sort of game.  And I suppose that for that sort of person, you could also include traditional pre-mades as well.

 

 

A training room sounds pretty cool.  It'd be great to be able to test out strats for fighting mobs of ogres or vithracks, for example. OTOH, I'm not entirely sure how one would justify what amounts to a fantasy world "holodeck", except possibly through magics though I suppose that that's rather obvious.

 

 

The first item sounds good, but I could see some people complaining about it breaking the immersion of moving around your stronghold. (Heck there was some poster complaining about the upgraded loot picking up feature of PoE, for crying out loud.  Somebody actually wants to have to go pick up every single freakin' item that gets dropped after a battle?  Wow.)

 

 

Still, good stuff.


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#52
Epsilon Rose

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

1. Bandits take nearly as much as I earn through taxes even though I have much higher security than prestige. How are the bandits so effective if I have sky-high security? This means that I'll earn something like 50 copper. Camping just once is more expensive than this, and what's worse is that when I subtract the cost of hirelings, I'm losing quite a bit of money.

 

2. It seems that hirelings are paid per day, but taxes are earned per turn. This means that you can never generate infinite wealth, but you can LOSE infinite wealth. Is that really true?

 

I do like the stronghold, don't get me wrong, but so far all it does is cost me money. A lot of money. I understand that you can get resting bonuses, sure, but for the thousands I spend upgrading the stronghold, I'm sure I could have gotten a full game's worth of resting bonuses from inns.

 

What am I missing here?

 

PS: If it had generated taxes per day, it would have made sense. Sure some nutty people could have gained infinite wealth, but does that really matter?

the keep poses a ridiculous difficult balancing problem for the developers.  in a game with abundant copper/gold, making the keep produce copious amounts o' wealth for the player would be inimical to their overall design philosophies.  sure, the player wants something for their investment in the keep, but rewarding with gold is bad.  the keep could be an effective gold sink, but so far, players appear less than enthusiastic with the results.   a gold sink is not a popular feature in single-player crpgs.  get a largely cosmetic or illusory benefit from a huge currency investment works in an mmo 'cause conspicuous consumption is an exploitable social failing.  what is the point o' such stuff in a single-player game, eh?  

 

likewise, the keep should not be providing enormous amounts o' additional xp, but it does via the bounties.

 

am realizing that it sounds a bit silly, but the keep, ideally, should reward you with nothing, and make you happy with your nothingness.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It could also reward you with intangibles or things that change your power orthogonally. Here are a few possible ideas off the top of my head:

 

  • Being able to directly access the resting option from the travel screen and the travel screen from anywhere in the keep. Possibly ditto for the merchants. This would allow you to skip loading screens, which doesn't effect AFFECT in game power in the slightest but would be an incredibly nice feature.
  • Being able to leave a companion at a structure for a number of quests and respec them (possibly to varying degrees, depending on how long you leave them). This wouldn't change a hypothetical player's power, since they could have theoretically made any of those choices to start with, but it could let them correct early game mistakes or make the game more pleasant. It could also make it easier to try out new builds.
  • Move enchantments from one weapon to another or strip enchantments from a weapon and salvage their components. This would let you experiment with enchantments more and put interesting enchantments on weapons you're more likely to use, but it doesn't actually give you anything new.
  • Have the merchants take custom orders for a slight markup (I want a weapon with these enchantments and get me these ingredients while you're at it). This could, potentially increase a player's power, but at least they'd be paying to get the things.
  • Training room where you can spawn monsters (who would drop no loot and grant no XP) to fight against and test new strategies.

 

 

Some interesting ideas here.  :thumbsup:

 

Not sure I like idea of changing the enchantment on an item beyond merely upgrading it.  OTOH, the idea of custom orders is interesting.

 

Don't particularly like the idea of being able to respec pre-made NPC's either.  They should be made reasonably well in the first place.  To me, this smacks of powergaming which I'm honestly not a fan of.  Hell, in a game like this, if I had my druthers, I'd set some hard caps below which a character's stats could not go.  Extreme min-maxing of stats in IWD2 always bothered me, because the idea of having a character running around with the intelligence of a ferret or a toad just seemed wrong to me, and still does.  But if the devs are going to provide a mega-hard game mode, then I suppose that role playing concerns sort of fly out the window and the idea of "realistic" stats with it.

 

Back to pre-made NPCs.  A different way to deal with them could go something like this.  As long as the # of pre-mades was small, what could be done is provide the character's scripted background, dialogs, and so forth.  And have their class and race and so forth be fixed, but let the player select the NPC's distribution of stat points, skill points, and other abilities and talents.  This would let the player customize the NPCs to be more to his liking.  Having said that, this could seem like a lot of work for people who are really new to this sort of game.  And I suppose that for that sort of person, you could also include traditional pre-mades as well.

 

 

A training room sounds pretty cool.  It'd be great to be able to test out strats for fighting mobs of ogres or vithracks, for example. OTOH, I'm not entirely sure how one would justify what amounts to a fantasy world "holodeck", except possibly through magics though I suppose that that's rather obvious.

 

 

The first item sounds good, but I could see some people complaining about it breaking the immersion of moving around your stronghold. (Heck there was some poster complaining about the upgraded loot picking up feature of PoE, for crying out loud.  Somebody actually wants to have to go pick up every single freakin' item that gets dropped after a battle?  Wow.)

 

 

Still, good stuff.

 

Keep in mind that the respecs could be limited to talents only and even for the premade companions you'll be picking some talents that you might make mistakes on. Also keep in mind that there are completely custom NPCs available as well. I'm also not sure why replacing talents with ones you're more likely to use is automatically power gaming. I can understand why doing something like dropping stats to 3 would be power gaming, but how is "Kana, I hate that story. Stop telling it. Go spend a week in the library studying something else." power gaming or immersion breaking?


Edited by Epsilon Rose, 12 April 2015 - 10:06 PM.


#53
Daemonjax

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

While I agree the Stronghold could be better, and I really hope it can be improved with mods, I think it's meant to be upgraded only while you're committed to exploring the Endless Dungeon all the way to the bottom and have no other use for your money because you've basically beaten the game already.

 

When you look at it under that light, most of it starts making more sense.

 

I could be wrong, because we can't know the minds of the developers unless they speak them.  But I think that's why the stronghold is the way it is... it's not really something you're supposed to invest in until you're in the endgame -- the Endless Dungeon.


Edited by Daemonjax, 12 April 2015 - 10:25 PM.


#54
Epsilon Rose

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

While I agree the Stronghold could be better, and I really hope it can be improved with mods, I think it's meant to be upgraded only while you're committed to exploring the Endless Dungeon all the way to the bottom and have no other use for your money because you've basically beaten the game already.

 

When you look at it under that light, most of it starts making more sense.

 

I could be wrong, because we can't know the minds of the developers unless they speak them.  But I think that's why the stronghold is the way it is... it's not really something you're supposed to invest in until you're in the endgame -- the Endless Dungeon.

 

But don't a number of it's features (the taxes, and to free material upgrades) only function while you have new quests to do?



#55
Daemonjax

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

While I agree the Stronghold could be better, and I really hope it can be improved with mods, I think it's meant to be upgraded only while you're committed to exploring the Endless Dungeon all the way to the bottom and have no other use for your money because you've basically beaten the game already.

 

When you look at it under that light, most of it starts making more sense.

 

I could be wrong, because we can't know the minds of the developers unless they speak them.  But I think that's why the stronghold is the way it is... it's not really something you're supposed to invest in until you're in the endgame -- the Endless Dungeon.

 

But don't a number of it's features (the taxes, and to free material upgrades) only function while you have new quests to do?

 

 

There are quests in the Endless Dungeon, and I did say it wasn't perfect. ;)



#56
Crucis

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So I'm trying to understand how to best use the stronghold. There are some issues that have come up though:

 

1. Bandits take nearly as much as I earn through taxes even though I have much higher security than prestige. How are the bandits so effective if I have sky-high security? This means that I'll earn something like 50 copper. Camping just once is more expensive than this, and what's worse is that when I subtract the cost of hirelings, I'm losing quite a bit of money.

 

2. It seems that hirelings are paid per day, but taxes are earned per turn. This means that you can never generate infinite wealth, but you can LOSE infinite wealth. Is that really true?

 

I do like the stronghold, don't get me wrong, but so far all it does is cost me money. A lot of money. I understand that you can get resting bonuses, sure, but for the thousands I spend upgrading the stronghold, I'm sure I could have gotten a full game's worth of resting bonuses from inns.

 

What am I missing here?

 

PS: If it had generated taxes per day, it would have made sense. Sure some nutty people could have gained infinite wealth, but does that really matter?

the keep poses a ridiculous difficult balancing problem for the developers.  in a game with abundant copper/gold, making the keep produce copious amounts o' wealth for the player would be inimical to their overall design philosophies.  sure, the player wants something for their investment in the keep, but rewarding with gold is bad.  the keep could be an effective gold sink, but so far, players appear less than enthusiastic with the results.   a gold sink is not a popular feature in single-player crpgs.  get a largely cosmetic or illusory benefit from a huge currency investment works in an mmo 'cause conspicuous consumption is an exploitable social failing.  what is the point o' such stuff in a single-player game, eh?  

 

likewise, the keep should not be providing enormous amounts o' additional xp, but it does via the bounties.

 

am realizing that it sounds a bit silly, but the keep, ideally, should reward you with nothing, and make you happy with your nothingness.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It could also reward you with intangibles or things that change your power orthogonally. Here are a few possible ideas off the top of my head:

 

  • Being able to directly access the resting option from the travel screen and the travel screen from anywhere in the keep. Possibly ditto for the merchants. This would allow you to skip loading screens, which doesn't effect AFFECT in game power in the slightest but would be an incredibly nice feature.
  • Being able to leave a companion at a structure for a number of quests and respec them (possibly to varying degrees, depending on how long you leave them). This wouldn't change a hypothetical player's power, since they could have theoretically made any of those choices to start with, but it could let them correct early game mistakes or make the game more pleasant. It could also make it easier to try out new builds.
  • Move enchantments from one weapon to another or strip enchantments from a weapon and salvage their components. This would let you experiment with enchantments more and put interesting enchantments on weapons you're more likely to use, but it doesn't actually give you anything new.
  • Have the merchants take custom orders for a slight markup (I want a weapon with these enchantments and get me these ingredients while you're at it). This could, potentially increase a player's power, but at least they'd be paying to get the things.
  • Training room where you can spawn monsters (who would drop no loot and grant no XP) to fight against and test new strategies.

 

 

Some interesting ideas here.  :thumbsup:

 

Not sure I like idea of changing the enchantment on an item beyond merely upgrading it.  OTOH, the idea of custom orders is interesting.

 

Don't particularly like the idea of being able to respec pre-made NPC's either.  They should be made reasonably well in the first place.  To me, this smacks of powergaming which I'm honestly not a fan of.  Hell, in a game like this, if I had my druthers, I'd set some hard caps below which a character's stats could not go.  Extreme min-maxing of stats in IWD2 always bothered me, because the idea of having a character running around with the intelligence of a ferret or a toad just seemed wrong to me, and still does.  But if the devs are going to provide a mega-hard game mode, then I suppose that role playing concerns sort of fly out the window and the idea of "realistic" stats with it.

 

Back to pre-made NPCs.  A different way to deal with them could go something like this.  As long as the # of pre-mades was small, what could be done is provide the character's scripted background, dialogs, and so forth.  And have their class and race and so forth be fixed, but let the player select the NPC's distribution of stat points, skill points, and other abilities and talents.  This would let the player customize the NPCs to be more to his liking.  Having said that, this could seem like a lot of work for people who are really new to this sort of game.  And I suppose that for that sort of person, you could also include traditional pre-mades as well.

 

 

A training room sounds pretty cool.  It'd be great to be able to test out strats for fighting mobs of ogres or vithracks, for example. OTOH, I'm not entirely sure how one would justify what amounts to a fantasy world "holodeck", except possibly through magics though I suppose that that's rather obvious.

 

 

The first item sounds good, but I could see some people complaining about it breaking the immersion of moving around your stronghold. (Heck there was some poster complaining about the upgraded loot picking up feature of PoE, for crying out loud.  Somebody actually wants to have to go pick up every single freakin' item that gets dropped after a battle?  Wow.)

 

 

Still, good stuff.

 

Keep in mind that the respecs could be limited to talents only and even for the premade companions you'll be picking some talents that you might make mistakes on. Also keep in mind that there are completely custom NPCs available as well. I'm also not sure why replacing talents with ones you're more likely to use is automatically power gaming. I can understand why doing something like dropping stats to 3 would be power gaming, but how is "Kana, I hate that story. Stop telling it. Go spend a week in the library studying something else." power gaming or immersion breaking?

 

 

Rose, my powergaming comment was really about extremely min-maxed stats than anything else.  Respeccing skills, abilities, and talents isn't nearly that big a deal, at least to me.  Honestly, I probably wouldn't mind respeccing those things in the least because it seems to me that some of the pre-made choices are rather suspect and seem to have been intentionally chosen to make the pre-mades weaker.  It seems to me that the NPC's basic character isn't going to change much, if at all, based on the choices a player makes with those things.

 

I could even see a minimal degree of stat respeccing.  Perhaps by setting each pre-made to a certain set of values to which you have, let's say 6 more stat points to add amongst the 6 attributes.  This would all for a mild degree of adjustment without allowing for any extreme min-maxing.  You couldn't lower any of the base stats.  Only decide where to add the remaining 6 points.  Just an idea.

 

 

Back to skill/ability/talent respeccing.  Here's another idea. This is going to date me quite a bit but the first DnD computer games, the gold box games required you to go to some sort of a training hall and pay gold to level up.  What if there was some training hall where you could pay some gold (and not an insignificant amount, perhaps 1000 gold?) and get a one time chance to respec an NPC.  One time, one fee for each NPC, not one time/one fee for all of them.  So, let's say that you don't like Durance's skills/talents/abilities.  You go to the Acme Training Hall, pay 1000 gold and you're allowed to completely respec Durance's skills, talents, and abilities.  ONCE.    Now having said that, if you wanted to allow it more than once per character (something that could be really abused, but what the heck), first time you pay 1k gold.  Second time, 5k gold.  Third time, 10k gold.  Fourth time, 20k gold.  And so on.  Basically, the first time would be affordable. , but each succeeding time would get increasingly painful to the coin purse.  I suppose that you could even allow PC's to be respecced because we all know that we can make a choice we later regret along the way when it comes to our skill/talent/ability choices.

 

 

 

 


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#57
Epsilon Rose

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I could even see a minimal degree of stat respeccing.  Perhaps by setting each pre-made to a certain set of values to which you have, let's say 6 more stat points to add amongst the 6 attributes.  This would all for a mild degree of adjustment without allowing for any extreme min-maxing.  You couldn't lower any of the base stats.  Only decide where to add the remaining 6 points.  Just an idea.

That's interesting. More generous than I'd normally be, but I can also see a lot of reasons to do it that way. 
 

Back to skill/ability/talent respeccing.  Here's another idea. This is going to date me quite a bit but the first DnD computer games, the gold box games required you to go to some sort of a training hall and pay gold to level up.  What if there was some training hall where you could pay some gold (and not an insignificant amount, perhaps 1000 gold?) and get a one time chance to respec an NPC.  One time, one fee for each NPC, not one time/one fee for all of them.  So, let's say that you don't like Durance's skills/talents/abilities.  You go to the Acme Training Hall, pay 1000 gold and you're allowed to completely respec Durance's skills, talents, and abilities.  ONCE.    Now having said that, if you wanted to allow it more than once per character (something that could be really abused, but what the heck), first time you pay 1k gold.  Second time, 5k gold.  Third time, 10k gold.  Fourth time, 20k gold.  And so on.  Basically, the first time would be affordable. , but each succeeding time would get increasingly painful to the coin purse.  I suppose that you could even allow PC's to be respecced because we all know that we can make a choice we later regret along the way when it comes to our skill/talent/ability choices.

I like that idea, it's basically what I suggested but I had the payment in quests while you have it in gold, but I'm not sure why the cost should increase with uses or why the uses should be limited to one time only. I suppose, theoretically, a player could respec their party so it's always tailor made for every major encounter, but that would cost a ton, even without increasing costs, for marginal benifits and I imagine it's a corner case. More likely, if a player respecs it's because they want to try something new, that might or might not work, or to correct a percived problem in their original build, which may or may not create new problems. I'd further argue that either of those two uses is liable to result in serial respecs, but those resecs aren't terribly different from the originall and should not be punished any more than the original.



#58
Ceranai

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Tbh I dont even care for its functionality the problem is even when fully updraded the place is dead as hell. Like give us some peasant NPCs or something. Its like a graveyard but when you ask the statue how its going she like omg ur so popular


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#59
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I'm just giving my feedback, who said anything about Obsidian murdering my family?

 

If anyone's being dramatic its you...

 

www.dictionary.com

 

Look up the verb 'to act' 



#60
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Back to skill/ability/talent respeccing.  Here's another idea. This is going to date me quite a bit but the first DnD computer games, the gold box games required you to go to some sort of a training hall and pay gold to level up.  What if there was some training hall where you could pay some gold (and not an insignificant amount, perhaps 1000 gold?) and get a one time chance to respec an NPC.  One time, one fee for each NPC, not one time/one fee for all of them.  So, let's say that you don't like Durance's skills/talents/abilities.  You go to the Acme Training Hall, pay 1000 gold and you're allowed to completely respec Durance's skills, talents, and abilities.  ONCE.    Now having said that, if you wanted to allow it more than once per character (something that could be really abused, but what the heck), first time you pay 1k gold.  Second time, 5k gold.  Third time, 10k gold.  Fourth time, 20k gold.  And so on.  Basically, the first time would be affordable. , but each succeeding time would get increasingly painful to the coin purse.  I suppose that you could even allow PC's to be respecced because we all know that we can make a choice we later regret along the way when it comes to our skill/talent/ability choices.

I like that idea, it's basically what I suggested but I had the payment in quests while you have it in gold, but I'm not sure why the cost should increase with uses or why the uses should be limited to one time only. I suppose, theoretically, a player could respec their party so it's always tailor made for every major encounter, but that would cost a ton, even without increasing costs, for marginal benifits and I imagine it's a corner case. More likely, if a player respecs it's because they want to try something new, that might or might not work, or to correct a percived problem in their original build, which may or may not create new problems. I'd further argue that either of those two uses is liable to result in serial respecs, but those resecs aren't terribly different from the originall and should not be punished any more than the original.

 

I like the idea of adding some type of retraining option to the game, not just for correcting mistakes or improving NPC's (Bear Fortitude? Really?), but because the game currently has several talents which are very useful in the difficult early stages of the game, but which rapidly lose utility once you have your feet under you. It'd be nice to be able to retrain those options rather than being stuck with them.


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