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Ok, I will fix your stat system for you


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I just want to know why, when everything in PoE's universe runs on spiritual energy and actual physical quickness should just be a function of that, Dexterity is called Dexterity, and not, like, "Wits," or something else that actually makes sense.

 

None of you has managed to solve the problem that, given the same weapon, an intelligent barbarian has bigger reach on his cleaving attacks than a dim one. Realistically, the only stat that should affect it is arm length.

 

Back to the drawing board y'all.

 

Unless, you know, Carnage represents equal parts savage tactical maneuvering and raw spiritual force.

 

Which is exactly what it represents.

 

The way Might is set up as a physical attribute that allows characters to more capably channel their spiritual energy makes sense to me.

 

You have it backwards. It's a spiritual attribute that is the source of physical strength.

Edited by gkathellar
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If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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Yeah, I think everything would be better if Obsidian had just called a spade a spade and was a lot more explicit about everything being done through soul power.

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"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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The problem I see with the various suggestions in this thread is that they are based almost entirely on "fluff" and very little on the actual gameplay. You may not understand how Might makes your pistol hit harder, but that doesn't really matter.

 

What matters is:

1. Does every attribute have a chance to shine, for EVERY class? (This encourages build diversity by giving you six options to max.)

2. Does every attribute have a chance to suck - that is, minimum value without totally gimping the character - for EVERY class? (This encourages build diversity by giving you six options to min.)

3. Do the attributes provide a variety of useful bonuses for play, or are certain bonus either overemphasized or omitted? (This encourages gameplay diversity by allowing a variety of situations, particularly in combat.)

 

So here are the real problems actually affecting the current attribute system:

1. Might is used on tanky Fighters and Moon Godlikes to create large amounts of self-healing, utterly trumping Constitution. As a result, virtually no one invests in Constitution.

2. An ability-centric character such as Wizard with low Intelligence is unthinkable due to the drastic effect Intelligence has on virtually all abilities. To some extent this applies to all character classes.

3. Two abilities, Perception and Resolve, provide virtually identical effects, leading to very Deflection-heavy gameplay.

4. In Path of the Damned, player Accuracy is pathetic compared to enemy defenses, making DPS builds ridiculously less consistent than tank builds.

 

Thus, my suggestions for attribute changes are far less complicated:

1. Remove "+3% Healing" from Might, give Constitution "+3% Healing received."

2. Nerf Intelligence to "+4% area of effect" and "+3% duration." Simultaneously, buff base AoE radii and durations by about 10%.

3. Get rid of the Deflection bonus on [pick one: Perception or Resolve], and replace it with an equal Accuracy bonus. This would effect the Deflection and Accuracy of countless enemies throughout the game, not just players. (I would go Resolve for Accuracy and keep Deflection with Perception, but vice versa could also work.)

 

Edit: specifically regarding Dirigible's proposal, we are far too late in the decelopment cycle (lol) to replace one set of attributes with a completely different set. All enemies would need entirely new stats. Unless your suggestion purtains to a potential sequel, you'd need to make minor edits to the 6 attributes we have now.

Edited by scrotiemcb
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The problem I see with the various suggestions in this thread is that they are based almost entirely on "fluff" and very little on the actual gameplay. You may not understand how Might makes your pistol hit harder, but that doesn't really matter.

 

What matters is:

1. Does every attribute have a chance to shine, for EVERY class? (This encourages build diversity by giving you six options to max.)

2. Does every attribute have a chance to suck - that is, minimum value without totally gimping the character - for EVERY class? (This encourages build diversity by giving you six options to min.)

3. Do the attributes provide a variety of useful bonuses for play, or are certain bonus either overemphasized or omitted? (This encourages gameplay diversity by allowing a variety of situations, particularly in combat.)

 

So here are the real problems actually affecting the current attribute system:

1. Might is used on tanky Fighters and Moon Godlikes to create large amounts of self-healing, utterly trumping Constitution. As a result, virtually no one invests in Constitution.

2. An ability-centric character such as Wizard with low Intelligence is unthinkable due to the drastic effect Intelligence has on virtually all abilities. To some extent this applies to all character classes.

3. Two abilities, Perception and Resolve, provide virtually identical effects, leading to very Deflection-heavy gameplay.

4. In Path of the Damned, player Accuracy is pathetic compared to enemy defenses, making DbDPS builds ridiculously less consistent than tank builds.

 

Thus, my suggestions for attribute changes are far less complicated:

1. Remove "+3% Healing" from Might, give Constitution "+3% Healing received."

2. Nerf Intelligence to "+4% area of effect" and "+3% duration." Simultaneously, buff base AoE radii and durations by about 10%.

3. Get rid of the Deflection bonus on [pick one: Perception or Resolve], and replace it with an equal Accuracy bonus. This would effect the Deflection and Accuracy of countless enemies throughout the game, not just players.

Devs tried tying accuracy to one of the stats. It wound up being imbalanced, because accuracy is the single most important number in the entire game.

 

I, for one, definitely put thought into the mechanics of my revised stats suggestion. I wanted to achieve a result which made sense thematically while still promoting interesting and balanced gameplay. So far, most people seem to think my proposed stats look pretty good. My mod-fu is weak, but I'll see about testing it out once I've finished the vanilla game

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Dirigible, you raise a valid point. All of the arguments I made regarding Intelligence's currently overwhelming power would also apply to an Accuracy-boosting stat.

 

However, I believe the core of what I'm getting at is: two attributes which pump Deflection is one attribute too many. I admittedly am at a bit of a loss about what precisely Perception and Resolve should do. What I'm a lot more confident about is what they shouldn't do: essentially the same thing.

 

I still stand by my points 1 & 2 above, but if you have any ideas on something to replace my Accuracy suggestion, your ideas are welcome.

Edited by scrotiemcb
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Dirigible, you raise a valid point. All of the arguments I made regarding Intelligence's currently overwhelming power would also apply to an Accuracy-boosting stat.

 

However, I believe the core of what I'm getting at is: two attributes which pump Deflection is one attribute too many. I admittedly am at a bit of a loss about what precisely Perception and Resolve should do. What I'm a lot more confident about is what they shouldn't do: essentially the same thing.

 

I still stand by my points 1 & 2 above, but if you have any ideas on something to replace my Accuracy suggestion, your ideas are welcome.

 

Well ...

Fitness

  • + % melee damage
  • + % Health
  • + Fortitude
  • + Deflection
Coordination
  • +% Action Speed
  • + Reflex
  • + Deflection
  • - Chance to be interrupted
Perception
  • Notice objects
  • +% Ranged damage
  • + Reflex
  • + Chance to interrupt
Intelligence
  • +% AOE size
  • +% Duration
  • + Will
Resolve
  • +% Spell power
  • +% Endurance
  • + Fortitude
  • + Will

I combined Strength and Constitution into Fitness. Thematically, I don't think its worth having them as separate stats.

Also, notice that Fitness gives Health, but Resolve gives Endurance. This gives more control and forces you to trade off between long-term tankiness and short-term tankiness.

With these changes, each stat contributes meaningfully to damage while still specializing your character. A max-Perception character will be great with ranged weapons, but perhaps less so with melee weapons or magic. Also, each stat has its own flavor. No two stats do, as you say, essentially the same thing.

 

I don't think that Intelligence's control over AOE size and Duration is overpowered, as is. AOE and Duration are two numbers which are hard to make the most of. 50% larger AOEs doesn't usually equate to 50% more damage - a lot of that area is wasted.

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Oh! Had an idea:

 

New proposal

Might: loses healing bonus completely.

Constitution: gains +3% healing received.

Intelligence: loses area of effect bonus completely.

Resolve: loses Deflection bonus completely, but gains +6% area of effect.

 

The only problem would be a very small number of classes (ex: rogue) with no AoE abilities. They would still benefit slightly from the additional Concentration, but that is a trivial gain.

 

I think a homage to D&D might be a fitting buff for Rogues, which would also give them a use for AoE...

Factotem (Rogue-only talent, available starting at level 2): 50% chance to retain a used Scroll instead of consuming it.

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@Dirigible: your proposed changes are too drastic for a game already in release. Even my suggestion is dangerously radical but yours are just way too far out there. The objective shuld be patching the key problems using something which mostly resembles the current system, not reworking from the ground up. Your proposal isn't practical; at best, a thought exercise.

I don't think that Intelligence's control over AOE size and Duration is overpowered, as is. AOE and Duration are two numbers which are hard to make the most of. 50% larger AOEs doesn't usually equate to 50% more damage - a lot of that area is wasted.

The Duration element is the most powerful component. Many battles are won or lost over buffs or afflictions, and Intelligence plays a huge role in everything from the Fighter's Knock Down to the Cipher's Mental Binding.

 

The 5% duration part of the Intelligence bonus is much more powerful than the 6% AoE part.

Edited by scrotiemcb
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I don't know why you hate priests, but taking away the AOE bonus from Intelligence and the healing bonus from Might is a massive nerf to them.

 

In fact, priests would have NO stats which augment their healing ability at all.

 

I disagree that my changes would be impossible. The most drastic is the complete removal of one stat. Without knowing how their system works, I don't know how doable that would be, but modders have done more, in the past.

Edited by dirigible
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The way Might is set up as a physical attribute that allows characters to more capably channel their spiritual energy makes sense to me.

 

You have it backwards. It's a spiritual attribute that is the source of physical strength.

 

The game describes Might as 'being a measure of one's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as the ability to channel powerful magic'. It doesn't state that training one gives power to the other; you are always training both. It makes a certain amount of sense if you think of spiritual energy as "kai" or "chi" or if you want a less esoteric description, simple manipulation of kinetic energy and adrenaline. 

 

More Last Airbender, less Harry Potter. 

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Ah, I see. In that case, I would simply nerf the duration scaling on Intelligence from 6% per point to 3 or 4% per point - more in line with the scaling on Might and Dex.

Correct - but on top of that, area of effect should be moved to another attribute. It's not like Dex is 3% action speed and something extra on top.

 

So to recap my continuously self-refining proposal:

Might: loses bonus to healing

Constitution, Dexterity and Perception: no changes

Intelligence: loses bonus to duration, gains "+3 Concentration"

Resolve: loses bonuses to Concentration and Deflection, gains "+3% duration," gains "+3% healing"

Other: base duration of effects increased roughly 20%. Ex: current Knock Down has base duration of 5 seconds, so with 20 Int it lasts 7.5 seconds and with 3 Int it lasts 3.25. Proposed base duration 6 seconds, 20 Int lasts 7.8 seconds, 3 Int lasts 4.74 seconds.

Edited by scrotiemcb
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3% action speed is inherently better than 3% duration bonus, since it benefits everything you do.

Not at all.

 

1. The number of ability uses one has is finite (for most classes). The only way to get 20 seconds of prone out of a Fighter is to spec Intelligence. Dexterity has no effect.

2. Not every party member necessarily has the same Dexterity or the same role. In a one-on-one I see your point (either do 1.3 things a second for 10 seconds, or 1 thing a turn for 13 seconds), but there are five other party members to think about.

 

But 3% duration is around the point where, even on a status-inflicting character, Dexterity starts to have niche cases where it is sometimes better (ex: 1v1). Which is good for balance.

Edited by scrotiemcb
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Using your fighter example...

You can use knockdown up to 3 times every single fight. I personally do not find this to be a limiting number. What I DO find to be limiting is my ability to get the knockdown off at the right moment - eg before the enemy reaches my mage or casts their spell. Intelligence cannot help with this - Dexterity can.

Dexterity will also make him do more damage while attacking.

It will also decrease how much time it takes for him to drink a potion, or pull an enemy into melee, or swap between weapon sets.
Intelligence doesn't help with any of these things.

Edited by dirigible
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  • 3 weeks later...

I've been thinking about this issue and decided a necro made more sense than creating a new thread.

 

Let us assume the primary goal is "no dump stats." This is a distinctly separate goal from "stats that fit the genre conventions."

 

What's important is that we start by analyzing the "squishy" character archetype first and completely, before moving on to defensive archetypes at all. This is because offense is always, always of some utility to a build, but defensive responsibilities can be wholly transferred onto other characters. Thus, the only way we can assure an attribute is never a dump stat is to ensure it has value to all squishies.

 

So let's go over what types of bonuses squishies desire.

 

1. Damage per action. This would be the best way to increase damage per second (DPS). It gets Attribute #1.

2. Actions per second. This would be a little worse than attribute #1 in raw DPS, but allow for better spread (less average overkill damage) and easier kiting. It gets Attribute #2.

3. Area of effect. Assuming some form of damaging AoE is available to all classes (ex: Blast no longer a Wizard-specific talent), then every class can increase functional DPS with increased AoE. This greeted Attribute #2.

4. Duration. Assuming some form of damage-over-time available to all classes (ex: Envenomed Strike), then every class can increase functional DPS with increased duration. This gets Attribute #4.

5. Range. This is useful for ranged DPS to engage enemies from further away, resulting in a functional damage increase against enemy melee. This goes to attribute #5. However, it assumes ranged DPS, so to ensure it isn't a dump stat, we'd have to give melee DPS a similar advantage.

6. Stealth. This can be used by melee DPS to get within attack range of enemies before the encounter begins. There is nothing saying Stealth must or should be handled by a non-Attribute system. This completes Attribute #5.

 

This just about exhausts traits which could be universally valued by squishies. Any additional attributes would fall under the category of defense. However, defenses which are more useful to squishies should probably get a chance here, and one particular squishy, the Priest, is missing an opportunity to improve one of his functions, healing.

 

What defense is better on squishies than more defensive characters? Endurance. Not Health, just Endurance. Tanks generally stack damage mitigation and are concerned about their rate of healing and their Health more than actual Endurance, since Health functionally determines when they drop assuming they outheal incoming damage. Thus, Attribute #6 would grant bonuses to Healing and Endurance (not Health)... as well as Concentration, so squishies who take #6 can escape engagement with less chance of KO.

 

Now for actually defensive characters. Since Attributes #1 and #2 increase autoattack DPS - an important fact for characters with limited, if any, active damage abilities, the defensive stats should be focused on Attributes 3 and 5, with perhaps a minor bonus to 4, which already improves any self-buffs the tank may have. (6 is already good defensively.) The two most important to include are damage mitigation and Health, so those go to 3 and 5, while the semi-useful Interrupt stat goes to 4, allowing low-damage tanks to disrupt enemies better.

 

Add it all together, toss in saves, and you get something like this...

Might: +% Damage, + Fortitude

Vigor: +% Area of Effect, +% Health, + Fortitude

Dexterity: +% Action Speed, + Reflex

Perception: +% Range and Vision, + Stealth, + Deflection, + Reflex

Intelligence: +% Duration, + Interrupt, + Will

Resolve: +% Healing, +% Endurance, + Concentration, + Will

 

I think that's about as non-dumpy as the attribute system could get, assuming six attributes rather than five.

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Why tie stealth to a stat when there's already an ability for it, which you can choose to boost on level up? I think the stealth system in general needs to be re-examined, where the only way to re-position after seeing a group of enemies is with a stealthy character. Anybody with low stealth that sees units on the edge of the FOW should immediately be thrown into combat, imo. This assumes group stealth is changed to allow individuals to remain hidden when combat begins though; current stealth just feels like a place-holder implementation that the devs haven't bothered fixing, imo (this seems to be true for many things in the game).

 

Not sure range and vision needs to be a stat either, maybe tie it to one of the abilities. Also, no real point in separating Endurance from Health when they are essentially the same thing, only one is short term and the other long term. I do like the idea of tying deflection to one stat only so it's harder to stack, maybe put AOE on Perception instead of Vigor as well?

 

How about...

 

Might: +% Damage, + Fortitude

Vigor: + Health, + Endurance (flat integers so they matter for priests, mages, etc)

Dexterity: +% Action Speed

Perception: + Interrupt, +% AOE, + Reflex

Intelligence: +% Duration, + Will

Resolve: +% Healing, + Concentration

 

Let talents handle deflection gains imo, it's basically the "accuracy" of defensive builds at the moment. Also, simplify Vigor and make the defensive talents actually matter by reducing the ability to gain one defense through multiple attributes.

There would need to be a re-examination of the hit/graze resolution system to make taking one defense over another matter as well.

Edited by View619
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Now you have two dump stats for pure-squishy Ciphers, Vigor and Resolve. That's why.

 

In all seriousness, the entire skill system should probably be scrapped. Doesn't add to gameplay at all. (Athletics should be a % of max Health mechanic.)

Edited by scrotiemcb
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Devs tried tying accuracy to one of the stats. It wound up being imbalanced, because accuracy is the single most important number in the entire game.

 

I, for one, definitely put thought into the mechanics of my revised stats suggestion. I wanted to achieve a result which made sense thematically while still promoting interesting and balanced gameplay. So far, most people seem to think my proposed stats look pretty good. My mod-fu is weak, but I'll see about testing it out once I've finished the vanilla game

 

 

Well, yeah. You wouldn't tie accuracy to one of the stats, because there are three defenses. It would make more sense to have a separate accuracy stat corresponding to each defense. Then use Might to provide anti-Fortitude, Perception to provide anti-Reflex, and Intelligence to provide anti-Will. (Edit: to be clear, these would be in lieu of the Fortitude/Reflex/Will bonuses; those would be limited to Con, Dex, and Resolve)

 

 

Put the Deflection bonus solely on Resolve, and the Accuracy bonus (that is, the one that is used specifically against Deflection) on Perception. Make sure each class has a variety of abilities that attack different defenses, even if some are more common than others.

Edited by perilisk
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The only change I want is Might not to add spell damage and Int to add spell damage

 

That's dumb. Why would having a mighty soul not add damage regardless of the soul power used?

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"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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