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You know, I'm not bringing up this issue to try and get the devs to all of a sudden change this game.  I know that's just not going to happen.  I'm talking about it now to give feedback so when they make a sequel or another similar game, that they take some of these things into greater consideration.  If they see it as a hot button issue with a lot of good points being made, then maybe this type of feedback will help future development.

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I think the current stat system is fine from a gameplay perspective, although I agree it leads to some strange situations. However, I'm not a huge fan of the OP's system. It doesn't seem any better and just leads to the same old (this class needs this stat) results. It does, however, make more sense with regard to strength.

IMO the attribute system should look something like this:
 

  • Strength: +Melee Damage, +Bow Damage (not crossbows), +Fortitude, -Armor Penalty*
  • Constitution: +Health, +Endurance, +Fortitude, +Deflection, +Duration of Abilities, +Heal
  • Dexterity: +Melee Accuracy, +Non-Spell Action Speed, +Reflexes, +Deflection, +Disengagement Defense
  • Perception: +Ranged Accuracy, +Spell Accuracy, +Reflexes, +Buff AoE, +Max Ranged Attack Range
  • Intelligence: +Spell Speed, +Offensive AoE, +Duration of Abilities, +Will, +Interrupt, +Crit Damage**
  • Resolve: +Spell Damage, +Wand Damage, +Concentration, +Will, +Endurance as a percentage of Health, +Max Ranged Spell Range

*Armor Penalty: -Non-Spell Action Speed, -Reflexes based on the heaviness of the armor
**Crit Damage is a flat bonus to damage rather than a percentage

With this system you can have a

  • Str+Con frontline fighter
  • Str+Dex big weapon melee DPSer who relies on armor for some protection
  • Str+Per bow/melee versatile DPSer
  • Str+Int melee crowd controller
  • Str+Res nothing
  • Con+Dex meatsack nothing
  • Con+Per healer
  • Con+Int crowd-control tank
  • Con+Res frontline caster
  • Dex+Per gun/crossbow DPSer
  • Dex+Int small-weapon crit DPSer who uses disables and disengagement for protection
  • Dex+Res melee offensive caster (weak)
  • Per+Int AoE magic debuffer/buffer
  • Per+Res single-target magic DPSer
  • Int+Res AoE magic DPSer

That seems pretty good to me (I'm biased) just a few combos don't work that well and with the right items/tweaks, that might be fixed too. Obviously, you can try and add a third or forth stat for added strengths and variety. Str+Con+Dex go well together, as do Per+Int+Res, not surprisingly.

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Ah-ha! There is the source of your mistake. In Pillars of Eternity, spells and Cipher powers and such are not psychic and do not come form "magic." When I discuss soul power, I'm not talking about will to power--nor am I talking about some ineffable concept.

In Eora, souls are a real, examinable, measurable, quantifiable objects that can be made to do work. Wizards do not use magic to cast spells--each spell is a specific way of using their soul to strike out, which causes certain predictable effects because of the way they are trained to apply that power. Ciphers powers are similar, only instead of striking out with their souls they use their souls to manipulate other souls. All magic, of any time, comes form that basis. Here is the definition of magic in Pillars of Eternity:

 

"Magic is created through accessing the power of people's souls. Different groups or people access these souls in different ways, so there is one source but varied techniques of use."

 

There's a lot that the people of Eora either don't know about souls or are in the process of figuring out; that's what animancy is basically all about. In PoE, you are playing in the time period wherein all of this discovery is being done--and the controversy surrounding it is actually vital to the plot of the game. One of the things about souls that is understood is that, while they do other things as well, they are also a kind of energy source.

 

Again, official lore:

 

"Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them."

 

Ah-ha! There is the source of your mistake. In Pillars of Eternity, spells and Cipher powers and such are not psychic and do not come form "magic." When I discuss soul power, I'm not talking about will to power--nor am I talking about some ineffable concept.

 

 

I am not making a mistake. I am familiar with what they've said about how the world works and what the stat represents. I am saying that I disagree with the way they've designed attributes, both in a mechanical sense and in a fluff sense.

 

You clearly aren't as you thought "soul power" was something to do with will to action. If you don't like their design decisions, that's fine--and if you don't like the mechanics, that's legit. But a cursory understanding of the lore and how the stats effect combat will let you know that it's not "broken" nor does it "not make sense".

 

Their interactive script doesn't demonstrate the non-physical meanings of "might", that's true, but that's pretty much it.

 

 

Alright. Why does Might make guns do more damage? If Might represents the power of the soul and body, why is the only effect it has on magic to make damaging effects more damaging? Might does nothing to contribute to the AoE, duration, or Accuracy of any of your powers. How does Might contribute to an arm-wrestling contest? Can you throw things farther if you have more Might? Does a weight-lifting regimen make your guns do more damage? If you spend all your time fasting and meditating does that allow you to pick up castles and snap iron chains? In order to be physically strong are you forced to be both physically conditioned and spiritually enlightened, in a holistic sense, or is one or the other enough?

 

The problem is that they have put two very unlike concepts under the umbrella of the same attribute. Hand-eye coordination, reflexes, and speed are similar enough to be grouped together under "Dexterity." Physical strength, skill at intimidation, and "soul power" are so unlike that it seems very jarring to lump them together under the same label.

 

 

 

 

Again, official lore:

 

"Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them."

 

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This. Technically, 5/6 stats are useful for every class. Resolve reduces the chance of an interrupt during spell casting/actions, perception gives increased interrupt chance and reflex, might, int and dex are obviously good. Clearly some stats will be more favourable then others depending on what you plan on doing with a class (e.g. not putting points into res on your back line since you don't expect them to take hits), but it's up to encounter design to bring out the negatives of different choices.

 

Also, I have to agree with interrupts not being as obvious as they should be. Another feature that could use some tweaking, imo.

 

Break down each stat and see what it's good for.

 

Might = almost entirely offense (slash healing)

Constitution = survivability

Dexterity = helps almost everything you do, therefore has no specialization

Perception = survivability - the interrupt bonus provides a bit of soft cc

Intelligence = helps almost everything you do, but only if you're a class that has lots of AoE / DoT

Resolve = survivability and bit of resistance to soft cc

 

So Con, Per, and Resolve are ONLY helpful if you're getting hit. On anyone who's going to spend 90% of their time not getting hit, they're dump stats.

Dex is equally good on everyone, which means it's a non-choice.

Intelligence is completely worthless to many classes.

All that's left is Might. And all classes want Might anyway. It's almost as bland as Dex.

 

 

Yeah, I know what they do when broken down. Regarding per, I was thinking you could focus on it if you want to make interrupt-focused builds; maybe not optimal but the choice is there. I'll agree with con and resolve being effectively "tank stats" though; not sure if that will ever change for con specifically since it's tied to endurance/health.

 

What you have regarding intelligence is interesting though. Are you saying that intelligence does not increase positive buff duration (Disciplined Assualt, Frenzy, etc)? That's pretty odd if it doesn't.

Edited by View619
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What you have regarding intelligence is interesting though. Are you saying that intelligence does not increase positive buff duration (Disciplined Assualt, Frenzy, etc)? That's pretty odd if it doesn't.

 

No, no - it does. I just typed DoT instead of "duration".

But unless your class is based around AoE or duration-based abilities, it's not really worth it.

Warriors, for instance, don't really get anything from Intelligence.

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IMO the attribute system should look something like this:

 

  • Strength: +Melee Damage, +Bow Damage (not crossbows), +Fortitude, -Armor Penalty*
  • Constitution: +Health, +Endurance, +Fortitude, +Deflection, +Duration of Abilities, +Heal
  • Dexterity: +Melee Accuracy, +Non-Spell Action Speed, +Reflexes, +Deflection, +Disengagement Defense
  • Perception: +Ranged Accuracy, +Spell Accuracy, +Reflexes, +Buff AoE, +Max Ranged Attack Range
  • Intelligence: +Spell Speed, +Offensive AoE, +Duration of Abilities, +Will, +Interrupt, +Crit Damage**
  • Resolve: +Spell Damage, +Wand Damage, +Concentration, +Will, +Endurance as a percentage of Health, +Max Ranged Spell Range

*Armor Penalty: -Non-Spell Action Speed, -Reflexes based on the heaviness of the armor

**Crit Damage is a flat bonus to damage rather than a percentage

 

Kickstart Alweth! :dancing:

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What you have regarding intelligence is interesting though. Are you saying that intelligence does not increase positive buff duration (Disciplined Assualt, Frenzy, etc)? That's pretty odd if it doesn't.

 

No, no - it does. I just typed DoT instead of "duration".

But unless your class is based around AoE or duration-based abilities, it's not really worth it.

Warriors, for instance, don't really get anything from Intelligence.

 

 

Wait, I just re-read your post. So, if I wanted to make a gimmicky fighter build that focuses on buff talents I could? Nice, I know it's sub-optimal but having the choice is cool.

 

I will agree that the talent spread makes min/maxing pretty easy but I don't think the goal was to prevent that, just to make multiple build choices viable for a play-through. So, for example, if I want to roll an intelligent fighter for w.e. reason I get some bonus for doing it without completely gimping the build.

Edited by View619
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To note "Might" does denote physical strength in-game.

 

Yes, and the flaw there is that Might is used for those skill checks rather than Athletics which makes more sense.  Still a flaw, just a flaw in a few places in the game rather than a fundamental flaw in the design of character stats.

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Actually the duration boost from intelligence works with a number of fighter talents I believe--things like Vigorous Defense and Unbending--that serve to make the fighter more tanky. At the expense of your might points for damage, of course.

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Actually the duration boost from intelligence works with a number of fighter talents I believe--things like Vigorous Defense and Unbending--that serve to make the fighter more tanky. At the expense of your might points for damage, of course.

Eh.... those are both once-per-rest "oh ****" buttons.

If you're building around those two skills then you're planning on being in deep trouble a lot.

 

It looks like about 6 of the 13 Fighter skills would benefit from Intelligence, either from duration or AoE size. I guess it's not terrible, but I'm not sure it would be very useful.

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Intellect warriors also benefit from longer prone durations on their knockdowns, not sure that it's worth the investment, but it's an option.  (Probably worth at least not tanking INT to 3)

 

While we're just making stuff up: I would like to see interrupt matter a bit more.  Basically when you get interrupted you are stunned for a bit (1-3 sec based on how badly?)  Right now it hardly matters even when it does occur (which is infrequently).  I would like a see a fast attacking dex build able to do a useful stun-lock style role. (since the damage of those builds is so poor)

Edited by Cronstintein
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If you spend all your time fasting and meditating does that allow you to pick up castles and snap iron chains?

In some settings it does, yes.

 

Okay, so then, if you do all that, THEN bench-press weights for 3 years straight and drink protein shakes every day, are you not then pick-up-castle strong +MUSCLES?

 

If becoming physically stronger impacts your total "power," then it has to provide the independent ability to perform tasks requiring "Might." So, how physically strong is someone with 18 Might, and how soul-fully strong are they? We have no idea, because both aren't represented in the game. It's like... Schrodinger's Strength. Until you actually observe someone's muscles-to-soul ratio, you have to assume that they have both 18 Might worth of soul-power AND 18 Might worth of muscle strength.

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Does critting on an interrupt increase the effect? Adding crit chance to per could do a lot for both damage and interrupt in that case.

1. I don't think so

2. Crit chance is tied to accuracy. Any attack roll of 100+ is automatically a crit.

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Does critting on an interrupt increase the effect? Adding crit chance to per could do a lot for both damage and interrupt in that case.

1. I don't think so

2. Crit chance is tied to accuracy. Any attack roll of 100+ is automatically a crit.

 

 

Right, I keep forgetting that accuracy handles all of that in POE. Well, maybe make per add a +/- modifier to crits regarding damage/interrupts/de-buff duration? Not too sure on the values you would use for that, though.

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I believe they do have a methodology for moving crit chance around (I've seen some talents to that effect) but I'm not entirely sure how it works mechanically.

 

They have abilities for changing x% of hits to crits. I think Minor Threat for Hearth Orlans is an example of this.

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I saw someone suggest making constitution reduce the penalties of wearing heavier armors and I'd love to see that implemented. Perception should in my mind at least obviously influence critical hits.

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"When the foul sore of envy corrupts the vanquished heart, the very exterior itself shows how forcibly the mind is urged by madness. For paleness seizes the complexion, the eyes are weighed down, the spirit is inflamed, while the limbs are chilled, there is frenzy in the heart, there is gnashing with the teeth."

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Honestly the biggest problem I have with PoE (not really) is that Deflection is the one-stat-to-rule-them-all.

It's actually not. Look at the spell/ability descriptions. They're an even mix of attacking the various defenses. Quite often you will/should be looking for ways to debuff Deflection though so your non-magical fighters can get damage through.

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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As an aside, over the course of the beta we saw tons of suggestions for attribute systems, including some very similar to the ones here, some by devs, some by beta testers. All of them, including the one that made it into the game, had one or more of the following problems in various degrees:

  • Counterintuitive. "Why does Might make guns do more damage?" "Why does Int make you harder to hit? (when Defl was on Int)"
  • Pumpy/dumpy. "Dexterity adds Accuracy! Dexterity FTW for everyone!" "Might only pumps melee damage, dump for casters!"
  • Overly complex. "Let's see, I want to make a damager, and Damage is split between Might and Resolve, crit chance is spread across Perception, Intellect, and Dexterity, action speed is split between... argh, what did I want to do again...?"
  • Cosmetic. The effects were so nerfed that a toon with 3 in all stats played more or less the same as a toon with 18 in all stats.

By now I'm fairly convinced that six attributes is just plain a bad idea. The classic AD&D system might as well not be there at all because the optimal stat distributions are so obvious for each class, and the D&D3 solution of layering on arbitrary stat requirements for feats which were arbitrary requirements for prestige classes just created a different and larger set of forced optimal stat distributions.

 

IOW carry on folks, but I think this is a bit of a :deadhorse: . The stats are what they are, and while you might be able to strike a balance between the above problems that's more to your taste, you will have a hard time convincing everyone that it's 'objectively better.' Because I'm pretty sure it will be easy to punch holes in it based on one or more of the above problems.

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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  • Overly complex. "Let's see, I want to make a damager, and Damage is split between Might and Resolve, crit chance is spread across Perception, Intellect, and Dexterity, action speed is split between... argh, what did I want to do again...?"

 

This is actually not a problem as long as the system is not also counterintuitive, or if good rules of thumb are provided. Not everyone wants or needs to exactly figure out that all the stats do, and those that want to do it won't be put off by a complex system, as long as it's not also bad for other reasons.

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As an aside, over the course of the beta we saw tons of suggestions for attribute systems, including some very similar to the ones here, some by devs, some by beta testers. All of them, including the one that made it into the game, had one or more of the following problems in various degrees:

  • Counterintuitive. "Why does Might make guns do more damage?" "Why does Int make you harder to hit? (when Defl was on Int)"
  • Pumpy/dumpy. "Dexterity adds Accuracy! Dexterity FTW for everyone!" "Might only pumps melee damage, dump for casters!"
  • Overly complex. "Let's see, I want to make a damager, and Damage is split between Might and Resolve, crit chance is spread across Perception, Intellect, and Dexterity, action speed is split between... argh, what did I want to do again...?"
  • Cosmetic. The effects were so nerfed that a toon with 3 in all stats played more or less the same as a toon with 18 in all stats.

By now I'm fairly convinced that six attributes is just plain a bad idea. The classic AD&D system might as well not be there at all because the optimal stat distributions are so obvious for each class, and the D&D3 solution of layering on arbitrary stat requirements for feats which were arbitrary requirements for prestige classes just created a different and larger set of forced optimal stat distributions.

 

IOW carry on folks, but I think this is a bit of a :deadhorse: . The stats are what they are, and while you might be able to strike a balance between the above problems that's more to your taste, you will have a hard time convincing everyone that it's 'objectively better.' Because I'm pretty sure it will be easy to punch holes in it based on one or more of the above problems.

 

This. I think the current stat system is okay as it is (not perfect, but it does it's job). I think from here, it's just a matter of balancing certain gameplay elements, like making interrupts a bit stronger or changing how engagement/disengagement works (it would be cool, for example, if I could somehow trigger disengagement attacks manually even if the enemy is not disengaging [because the AI rarely disengages at all, so it's pretty much a foe-only mechanic]).

Also, constitution needs a slight buff for non-tank classes.

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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Ah, a good topic, even if it apparently has been discussed to death already? Well, if nothing major can be changed anymore because of reasons, I'm hoping that at least a mod will come out of this to address intuition issues.

 

First of all, though, I commend Obsidian for having mostly succeeded in fulfilling their dream of a no-dumps stat system. I love what they have done to INT in particular -- making it more of a tactical application sort of stat, like AoE that avoids friends. I'm also pretty happy about most other main stats.

 

However, I'm one of those who don't like the concept of Might at all. Might, as a main stat, is inherently flawed, because it's not a main stat: It's a derived stat. Similarly you could have a main stat called "Defense" that lets you defend against all sorts of different attacks -- same reasoning ("strength of the soul"?), but it wouldn't make much sense either. That's why we have secondary defensive stats like Deflection, Reflex and Will, which are increased by actual main stats. As a secondary stat Might makes much more sense IMHO.

 

The primary problem is that Might as is effectively means "Physical strength = mental/spiritual strength". But those are a) completely different things and b) Might with the meaning of "strength of the soul" with physical applications isn't used consistently in the game at all. In Dialogues and descriptions, it's basically a strength check. Even class descriptions hint at a fairly clear distinction between mental and physical powers:

 

 

Ciphers are the psychic fighters whose talent descends from Glanfathan “soul hunters.” They use mental powers to affect the minds and souls of their enemies.

Wizards are gifted individuals who, through rigorous study, are able to channel soul fragments around them through their books, called grimoires, to produce magical effects.

 

 

I just don't see how physical strength could play a role for them. And as others have already said, there's a very fitting stat for mental strength already: Resolve.

 

 

Maybe the issue of extreme dump stats could be alleviated by making STR give 3/4 extra physical damage and 1/4 magical damage and RES give 3/4 extra magical damage and 1/4 physical damage, or something along those lines. Either way, for me flavor, sense, intuition and theme are more important than completely avoiding dump stats no matter the role-playing cost.

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The primary problem is that Might as is effectively means "Physical strength = mental/spiritual strength". But those are a) completely different things

Not in this setting.

 

and b) Might with the meaning of "strength of the soul" with physical applications isn't used consistently in the game at all. In Dialogues and descriptions, it's basically a strength check. Even class descriptions hint at a fairly clear distinction between mental and physical powers:

Fair point. Strength of the Soul seems like it would already be covered by Resolve, but Resolve is used for lying, bluffing, and being gutsy.

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