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The system is radically different from D&D. The setting is radically different from D&D. The only thing that's PoE shares with D&D is vancian magic, some class names, and the fact that everyone has 6 main stats.

 

 

"D&D" is not a setting. Technically Planescape, Eberron, and Greyhawk are all "D&D" settings, if you choose to play games of D&D set in those worlds.

 

Mechanically, the biggest difference between D&D and Pillars is the fact that Pillars uses a d% instead of a d20 to randomize outcomes. Numenera, which uses the d20, is more different from D&D than Pillars is.

 

It's not a bad thing. It is what they were aiming for when they pitched the Kickstarter. Keep in mind that this game only exists because people were willing to back up their nostalgia for Baldur's Gate with serious cash. Everyone would be angry if they shipped, say, a first-person action-RPG a la Skyrim, or even an isometric-ish turn-based RPG with drastically different mechanics a la Divinity: Original Sin.

 

re: setting, yeah I know but no D&D video game has been set in anything resembling PoE's setting. Forgotten Realms, being the biggest example, didn't have firearms or psychics.

 

 

Wow. You would not believe how high my brow just crinkled right now, reading that there sentence.

 

Firearms and psychics were relatively rare in some parts of the Forgotten Realms. I would imagine most tabletop campaigns would not necessarily include them. That said, have you ever heard of a mind flayer? Or a psionicist? Or a soulknife (the class ciphers are based on)? Drizzt Do'urden, the Forgotten Realms poster child, tangled with both psychics and guns on his wacky adventures. He even had a weird little soliliquy once after watching a ship blow up, thinking to himself that with enough gunpowder you could blow up the world.

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 As a result most characters focus on might and int, except for a couple of builds.  Why should all potent mages, priests, ciphers, archers, all damage dealers look like arnold schwartzenhager? 

Here's your problem. Might is not strength. Having a high might does not mean you have big, hardcore muscles.

 

But thats not how the game plays it out, like in scripted events such as the one I mentioned above.  Despite the appreciated conan referrence above,  Physical str is different than mental fortitude and one stat to represent two concepts that are normally diametrically opposed is clunky.

 

The scripting is bad, yes. I'm pretty sure that is just budget and time issues, IMHO. The background is very clear that might measures physical strength and spiritual strength--it's not muscle, it's not mental fortitude, it's a measure of raw *power*.

 

For example, Harry Dresden would have a very high Might.

Edited by Katarack21
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I don't think people are complaining because they don't agree to something different. They're complaining because the system is unintuitive and badly balanced. Schwartzenneger everything (need might on every build) makes it so that most conversation options take into account that your character can pick up a fridge, and you're short-changed on other stats because they're all useless in comparison.

 

Because you only have so many stat points to distribute, if you want to make a good mage for dealing damage, or a good ranger for dealing damage, or a good fighter for dealing damage, they'll all get the same might conversation options, while you would reasonably expect the ranger to benefit most from dex/perception, the warrior to benefit most from might, and the mage to benefit most from int, everyone benefits most from might.

 

The system just doesn't make sense and is poorly balanced.

Nobody complained about the system of D:OS, because it was good. This one isn't. that's all there is to it really. I accept that it's 'refreshingly different', but it's not good

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Wow. You would not believe how high my brow just crinkled right now, reading that there sentence.

 

Firearms and psychics were relatively rare in some parts of the Forgotten Realms. I would imagine most tabletop campaigns would not necessarily include them. That said, have you ever heard of a mind flayer? Or a psionicist? Or a soulknife (the class ciphers are based on)? Drizzt Do'urden, the Forgotten Realms poster child, tangled with both psychics and guns on his wacky adventures. He even had a weird little soliliquy once after watching a ship blow up, thinking to himself that with enough gunpowder you could blow up the world.

 

Ehh... I don't consider mindflayers to be in the same category as ciphers (or empaths or whatever else). They're inherently magical creatures. When I say psychic, I mean the entirely non-magical kind. You might have a point with psionicist, not sure.

 

Gunpowder isn't the same as guns. LotR had gunpowder, but Frodo definitely wasn't packing heat.

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The scripting is bad, yes. I'm pretty sure that is just budget and time issues, IMHO. The background is very clear that might measures physical strength and spiritual strength--it's not muscle, it's not mental fortitude, it's a measure of raw *power*.

For example, Harry Dresden would have a very high Might.

 

The problem is that the stats (and might particularly) were written from a gameplay perspective, not a roleplay perspective. As a result, it's harder to find examples of character archetypes which work with the stats than it is to find examples which don't.

 

Might's "spiritual strength" is already covered, logically, by Resolve. Or are we going to say that Frodo Baggins and Harry Potter would be "Mighty" individuals, able to deal massive damage with each blow of their longsword?

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 As a result most characters focus on might and int, except for a couple of builds.  Why should all potent mages, priests, ciphers, archers, all damage dealers look like arnold schwartzenhager? 

Here's your problem. Might is not strength. Having a high might does not mean you have big, hardcore muscles.

 

But thats not how the game plays it out, like in scripted events such as the one I mentioned above.  Despite the appreciated conan referrence above,  Physical str is different than mental fortitude and one stat to represent two concepts that are normally diametrically opposed is clunky.

 

The scripting is bad, yes. I'm pretty sure that is just budget and time issues, IMHO. The background is very clear that might measures physical strength and spiritual strength--it's not muscle, it's not mental fortitude, it's a measure of raw *power*.

 

For example, Harry Dresden would have a very high Might.

 

*sigh*

 

Okay. I'll bite. If Might is a measure of "soul power," why don't all of your party members have gobs of it by dint of being the protagonists of the story? If you have a Might of 3, does that mean you are diffuse and ineffectual? Because you're not. You're the only ones besides the villain who ever actually do anything in the story.

 

The kind of power you're talking about is the will to power, the ability to get things done and impose your will upon the universe, which in most stories protagonists and (especially) antagonists possess in droves while everyone else is lacking in it.

 

You are applying an ineffable quality to a stat when the only thing that might be said to accurately represent that quality is your character level: the sum of your experiences and hardships suffered and trials overcome, and the potential you possess to do even more. That is why when characters gain level, they're generally said to become more powerful.

 

 

Wow. You would not believe how high my brow just crinkled right now, reading that there sentence.

 

Firearms and psychics were relatively rare in some parts of the Forgotten Realms. I would imagine most tabletop campaigns would not necessarily include them. That said, have you ever heard of a mind flayer? Or a psionicist? Or a soulknife (the class ciphers are based on)? Drizzt Do'urden, the Forgotten Realms poster child, tangled with both psychics and guns on his wacky adventures. He even had a weird little soliliquy once after watching a ship blow up, thinking to himself that with enough gunpowder you could blow up the world.

 

Ehh... I don't consider mindflayers to be in the same category as ciphers (or empaths or whatever else). They're inherently magical creatures. When I say psychic, I mean the entirely non-magical kind. You might have a point with psionicist, not sure.

 

Gunpowder isn't the same as guns. LotR had gunpowder, but Frodo definitely wasn't packing heat.

 

 

The "psychic powers" in Pillars are even less theoretically non-magical than the ones in D&D, since their powers explicitly come from the same source as what everyone else uses. Which is magic.

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The "psychic powers" in Pillars are even less theoretically non-magical than the ones in D&D, since their powers explicitly come from the same source as what everyone else uses. Which is magic.

 

If you say so. I haven't yet seen any lore explanations in game for either magic or psychic powers, aside from the fact that Ciphers are definitely NOT Wizards. Nor are they Animancers. And that Animancers aren't Wizards either.

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 As a result most characters focus on might and int, except for a couple of builds.  Why should all potent mages, priests, ciphers, archers, all damage dealers look like arnold schwartzenhager? 

Here's your problem. Might is not strength. Having a high might does not mean you have big, hardcore muscles.

 

But thats not how the game plays it out, like in scripted events such as the one I mentioned above.  Despite the appreciated conan referrence above,  Physical str is different than mental fortitude and one stat to represent two concepts that are normally diametrically opposed is clunky.

 

The scripting is bad, yes. I'm pretty sure that is just budget and time issues, IMHO. The background is very clear that might measures physical strength and spiritual strength--it's not muscle, it's not mental fortitude, it's a measure of raw *power*.

 

For example, Harry Dresden would have a very high Might.

 

*sigh*

 

Okay. I'll bite. If Might is a measure of "soul power," why don't all of your party members have gobs of it by dint of being the protagonists of the story? If you have a Might of 3, does that mean you are diffuse and ineffectual? Because you're not. You're the only ones besides the villain who ever actually do anything in the story.

 

The kind of power you're talking about is the will to power, the ability to get things done and impose your will upon the universe, which in most stories protagonists and (especially) antagonists possess in droves while everyone else is lacking in it.

 

You are applying an ineffable quality to a stat when the only thing that might be said to accurately represent that quality is your character level: the sum of your experiences and hardships suffered and trials overcome, and the potential you possess to do even more. That is why when characters gain level, they're generally said to become more powerful.

 

 

Wow. You would not believe how high my brow just crinkled right now, reading that there sentence.

 

Firearms and psychics were relatively rare in some parts of the Forgotten Realms. I would imagine most tabletop campaigns would not necessarily include them. That said, have you ever heard of a mind flayer? Or a psionicist? Or a soulknife (the class ciphers are based on)? Drizzt Do'urden, the Forgotten Realms poster child, tangled with both psychics and guns on his wacky adventures. He even had a weird little soliliquy once after watching a ship blow up, thinking to himself that with enough gunpowder you could blow up the world.

 

Ehh... I don't consider mindflayers to be in the same category as ciphers (or empaths or whatever else). They're inherently magical creatures. When I say psychic, I mean the entirely non-magical kind. You might have a point with psionicist, not sure.

 

Gunpowder isn't the same as guns. LotR had gunpowder, but Frodo definitely wasn't packing heat.

 

 

The "psychic powers" in Pillars are even less theoretically non-magical than the ones in D&D, since their powers explicitly come from the same source as what everyone else uses. Which is magic.

 

Ah-ha! There is the source of your mistake. In Pillars of Eternity, spells and Cipher powers and such are not psychic and do not come form "magic." When I discuss soul power, I'm not talking about will to power--nor am I talking about some ineffable concept.

 

In Eora, souls are a real, examinable, measurable, quantifiable objects that can be made to do work. Wizards do not use magic to cast spells--each spell is a specific way of using their soul to strike out, which causes certain predictable effects because of the way they are trained to apply that power. Ciphers powers are similar, only instead of striking out with their souls they use their souls to manipulate other souls. All magic, of any time, comes form that basis. Here is the definition of magic in Pillars of Eternity:

 

"Magic is created through accessing the power of people's souls. Different groups or people access these souls in different ways, so there is one source but varied techniques of use."

 

There's a lot that the people of Eora either don't know about souls or are in the process of figuring out; that's what animancy is basically all about. In PoE, you are playing in the time period wherein all of this discovery is being done--and the controversy surrounding it is actually vital to the plot of the game. One of the things about souls that is understood is that, while they do other things as well, they are also a kind of energy source.

 

Again, official lore:

 

"Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them."

 

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the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.

 

in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

 

Which must be why my mage and priest can both bend the bars with their bare hands to get into the castle.  LOL, yeah makes sense.

 

And by your logic a keen eye will magically make arrows, bolts, and bullets fly faster or be shot with more force... right! Call the stats whatever you like, I know names don't always make perfect sense but your version would make it yet another DnD game where we have 3 dump stats for each class with little to no variety.

 

Edit: and to make you understand what might means... think of it as an equation, like P = U x I. Lets convert this to Might = Muscle strength x Will power. Might = 10 can be achieved in many ways, like 2x5, or 1x10, or 10x1.

 

 

I'd say having a better aim with a fire arm or bow would definitely result in better placement and thus more damage.  Makes perfect sense to me.  And yes each class would be more inclined to dump a couple stats, but at least they would differ depending on the class.  Right now, con/dex/resolve are almost universal dump stats.  There would be even more variety.

 

Redefining something just to make it different does not equate to being better.  All change does not equal good change.  I don't care if something is formulaic.  I care that it makes sense and that I don't have to look up some arbitrary redefinition to understand its basic fundamental application.

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all that stuff you wrote

Of course the problem there is that the protagonist is described as having a mighty soul.

 

Meaning that you canonically should have 18+ Might?

 

I must have missed that part. I'm not being a smartass; I literally do not remember where the protaganist is described as having a mighty soul. I'd just say it's narrative description and not in-game attribute information and it wouldn't bother me a bit; gameplay and story segregation are a thing.

 

Kinda like how in KOTOR all the guards that are talking about how they need to find Bastila never comment on her being in your party, in Jedi robes, with a glowing light saber, and walking right past them.

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Okay okay, I know this was discussed a ton in like 50 threads before the game released, but I'm all for another pass at it now that we have our hands on the final game, :).

 

I like the general idea Skor has. I don't think his example changes are perfect, but...

 

Here's the thing, and others have already touched on it:

 

There are ways to let stats affect your character build style without directly catering only to your class. For example, melee versus ranged attacks. ANYONE can use melee attacks OR ranged attacks, right? So, if we're trying to get away from dump stats, then, by that very nature, wouldn't we want to steer clear of other cookie-cutter things? You know, "Oh, a Wizard is obviously going to use ranged attacks, or a Ranger is obviously going to use ranged attacks."

 

I would think so. They already steered away from the whole "armor = spell failure" thing, and other "Oh, you're this class? Then THIS IS HOW YOU BE THAT CLASS!" stuff that wasn't really an inherent part of the class's design.

 

So, as others have said, you've got Resolve. You've even got Intellect. I think what should've been done is for the abilities between classes to be designed with the same spread in mind. I mean, what we typically think of as "magic" damage could just be "damage that stems from the soul, rather than the physical force of the body." To use an extremely simple example, a Fighter can have an ability like Power Strike that is augmented by "magic" damage, and thereby, Resolve. So, if a Fighter were designed in such a way that you got a lot of customization for their abilities, you could still have a lot of different abilities to use, and a lot of options for "tracks" to follow.

 

Basically, if Might affected the physical (rename the stat if you'd like), and Resolve affected the soul-based (aka "magical"), then you could design the Fighter (for example, as it's typically devoid of magic in most RPG systems that PoE's descended from) in such a way that a player could choose "Fighter" as their class, pump Resolve up to 18, leave Might at 10, and still be able to progress and choose things for the Fighter that are supported by Resolve instead of Might. Just as we always wonder "will a muscle-wizard be viable?", a "magic fighter" could be viable. He'd still get inherent, passive/base benefits to conventional combat (extra weapon training, core attacks that make him Fightery and effective no matter what, etc.), but, just as you can choose between Defender Mode or Disciplined Barrage and such, you could choose many other things, like a soul-magic-based power strike, or maybe some kind of weapon-lengthening ability that uses soul-energy to extend your blade's reach, or something that magically extends your shield for a brief duration to block ranged attacks from getting past you, etc.

 

When everyone's powered by their souls, you no longer have that "Ohhh, the Fighter can't do anything but physically attack, because then he'd just be using mana or something just like another class!" There's no explanation for it if there's just "magic" and non-magic, and only certain people are supposed to use magic. But, with soul-based abilities, you're fueling your own powers, so they can exist and still be tailored to your class. You don't have to spew fire out or put people to sleep or summon stuff to use magic-type abilities.

 

Another example is just the Duration effect. If you make that significant enough, then even without magical abilities, you can have Resolve be VERY useful for a Fighter. If you've got an ability that has you focus on defense, and grants you additional Deflection for the next 10 seconds, and 18 Resolve doubled that to 20 seconds or something, that'd be pretty useful. Now, imagine, again, that your Fighter could choose from a whole bunch of abilities similar to that, that are more just "modal"-type abilities, but are still active-use (maybe lots of them would be per-encounter?). Boom. You've got Fighter buildability that supports high Resolve, without needing the other stats. I mean, sure, you're not going to want to take 3 in other stats, but... still. That's as it should be. The system should make you really think about going below the average value on a stat, and should support going with high values in almost any stat.

 

I think they had a good idea for PoE's stat system, but it's far from ideal. Things like Interrupt are great, but they don't really apply to the whole class functionality. Sure, you can build SOME characters to just be Interrupt beasts, but there we go again with the class-typing.

 

If you really want the best stat system for your game, I think you have to build the classes with the stat system in mind, not vice versa. Not "Okay, we've got our Wizard and his spells, and our Fighter with his abilities... now how can we make sure nothing's a dump stat for one or the other, and that nothing's too specific to one or the other?" *shrug*

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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The funny thing is, that's exactly how it is in the *lore*. The background material and such pretty much say that the increased damage from high might for a non-magic fighter is supposed to represent how the martial training has taught them to use the power of their souls to do more damage. It's just not made very clear that that's what is happening, nor do the mechanics seperate it in that way.

I do very much like your idea, though--I think that's a really good concept for an attribute system.

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the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.

 

in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

Except, of course, that it is also physical power.

 

You perform great feats of physical strength in dialogue, with high might. 

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Ah-ha! There is the source of your mistake. In Pillars of Eternity, spells and Cipher powers and such are not psychic and do not come form "magic." When I discuss soul power, I'm not talking about will to power--nor am I talking about some ineffable concept.

In Eora, souls are a real, examinable, measurable, quantifiable objects that can be made to do work. Wizards do not use magic to cast spells--each spell is a specific way of using their soul to strike out, which causes certain predictable effects because of the way they are trained to apply that power. Ciphers powers are similar, only instead of striking out with their souls they use their souls to manipulate other souls. All magic, of any time, comes form that basis. Here is the definition of magic in Pillars of Eternity:

 

"Magic is created through accessing the power of people's souls. Different groups or people access these souls in different ways, so there is one source but varied techniques of use."

 

There's a lot that the people of Eora either don't know about souls or are in the process of figuring out; that's what animancy is basically all about. In PoE, you are playing in the time period wherein all of this discovery is being done--and the controversy surrounding it is actually vital to the plot of the game. One of the things about souls that is understood is that, while they do other things as well, they are also a kind of energy source.

 

Again, official lore:

 

"Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them."

 

Ah-ha! There is the source of your mistake. In Pillars of Eternity, spells and Cipher powers and such are not psychic and do not come form "magic." When I discuss soul power, I'm not talking about will to power--nor am I talking about some ineffable concept.

 

 

I am not making a mistake. I am familiar with what they've said about how the world works and what the stat represents. I am saying that I disagree with the way they've designed attributes, both in a mechanical sense and in a fluff sense.

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^ Agreed. At the very least (and I do mean that):

 

1) It wasn't necessary to mash Soul Power and Physical Strength into one stat (as I explained above, the lore already supported how you can do either)

2) There could've at least been your Class as a differentiating factor for how/what you can accomplish with your Might score. 18 Might + Fighter = physical feat. 18 Might + Wizard = magical feat. Thus, there could've at least been a significant difference between having an 18 Might Wizard and an 18 Might Fighter when it comes to handling dialogue/scripted interaction situations.

 

This particular thing (the Might Conglomeration) was discussed to an extreme extent in older threads during the game's development, but my biggest issue with it is simply the lack of "something's diminishing your soul-related power, for whatever reason. How do you handle this situation now?" potential for circumstances/interesting dilemmas.

 

Again, you can give Fighters soul-magic abilities that are very Fightery and not Wizardy or Druidy, and the natural limitation of Wizards' spells per-day and such already gives great benefit to physical ability and conventional combat. That, and you could even give Wizards some abilities that rely on their Might (like summoned weapons, off the top of my head). Etc.

 

The lore was set up pretty great from the start, but then the mechanics didn't really take very much advantage of that, I don't think.

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Created an account just to talk about how dumb this idea is. Are you guys playing a different game than I am? My stock NPC wizard with "who cares" amount of might is raining aoe death on people, working as intended.

 

If you want to min/max, you're going to have a mega-mage that can bend bars. But guess what, you were going to have something absurd anyway, because you're ****ing min/maxing. Wizard bases are through the roof on damage anyway, and no scaling in this game is all that amazing (except survival which scales just stupidly well).

 

You guys are bad at video games and you're trying to tell people who make video games how to make video games. This might as well be the League of Legends forums.

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^ This has nothing to do with being bad or good at video games. It's conceptual design, and the results of that conceptual design.

 

Were you referring to someone specifically?

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I'm also not a fan of the current attribute system for the reasons already mentioned regarding my incredibly strong wizard.  I would much prefer if resolve/perception played more of a useful role in a caster.

 

I would also like some way of positively adjusting accuracy.  The problem with the current system is accuracy is all-encompassing, so boosting it means you're better at everything. 

 

Dexterity affecting physical accuracy while resolve boosting spell accuracy or something along those lines would make more sense to me.

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I'd actually be quite ok with Resolve being repurposed for "soul attack" damage and Might granting "physical attack" damage - at least in theory. That change would play haywire with the attribute balance, though. Not to mention that we'd be right back to a "physical attackers pump MIG, magic attackers pump RES" situation. Might isn't perfect from a lore standpoint - but it works very well from a gameplay standpoint and is passable from a lore standpoint. Again, I like to think of Might as encompassing physical strength (since it obviously, in some sense, does - given what we see in the skill checks), but as magical spells being more powerful when cast by a person of great Might as well. Which, again, is not at all unheard of as a fantasy trope.

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I also don't consider might to be physical bulk and can usually remember I'm playing a game and that some things have to be abstracted or some disbelief suspended.

 

In my humble opinion (30+ years of running table top rpgs), I would have done something more along the lines of this:

 

  • Might:  + melee damage, + fortitude, + might requirement for equiping various weapons and armor
  • Intelligence:  + Area of effect, + Will, + Damage (spells)

 

I'll take obsidian;s large team of professional designers/coders with numerous successful games bought by hundreds of thousands of players over your 30 years of doing things your own way with a few friends.  Or over what any armchair nobody wannabe designer/developer (modder) thinks the game should be like (in fact I'd go so far as to say I find many modders who think they know how to balance games created by other people better than those people to be very annoying most of the time)  /shrug

 

Plus, the idea of having strength be the only stat melee dps cares about along with int being the only stat casters care about (in your system) is part of the problem.  No mage needs strength in D&D or typical systems and no melee needs int.  At least in the PoE system there is SOME degree of need for more stats for more characters and more options for builds.

 

PoE may not be perfect but it's refreshing to see some different ideas and approaches rather than just the generic, and I like that the game isn't D&D since as much as I love D&D and grew up playing pnp D&D it's not a perfect system by any means either.  Some people are overly attached to it and are having troubles accepting a different take, that much seems to be happening.

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I'm also not a fan of the current attribute system for the reasons already mentioned regarding my incredibly strong wizard.  I would much prefer if resolve/perception played more of a useful role in a caster.

 

I would also like some way of positively adjusting accuracy.  The problem with the current system is accuracy is all-encompassing, so boosting it means you're better at everything. 

 

Dexterity affecting physical accuracy while resolve boosting spell accuracy or something along those lines would make more sense to me.

 

Fun fact - there used to be a stat that adjusted Accuracy. For a very long time. It was DEX for a while, then PER for a while (after they put action speed on DEX). The problem they ran into was that you basically then had two stats that increased average DPS - MIG and ACC. And ACC actually outclassed MIG for increasing damage a good portion of the time - it depends on the relative value of ACC vs DEF as to whether one more point of ACC or MIG is better. Not to mention that ACC is incredibly powerful because it affects not only damage but duration of duration abilities (grazes have half duration, and crits had increased duration, not sure if this is still the case for crits).

 

I get the impression they removed it to A) have MIG just be the "damage" stat and INT be the "duration" stat without having to deal with the complex interactions the two have with ACC, and B) have an easier time judging how much ACC any character can obtain at various points throughout the game (for balancing purposes), as well as put more emphasis on class starting ACC as important.

 

TL;DR - Used to be like that but they changed it, probably because the ACC stat was waaaay too powerful and it's easier to balance the game this way.

 

EDIT: Melee and Ranged Accuracy also used to be split up. Classes had separate starting values for each (though the ACC stat increased both equally). People hated this because it basically pigeonholed classes into whichever was higher - you couldn't try and build a bow Fighter or a sword Ranger without feeling like an idiot. Merging the two was a great change IMO.

 

EDIT 2: Just realized you were talking about Physical/Spell Accuracy, not Melee/Ranged. Oops. Erm.... I guess they could do it that way. It wouldn't make a whole lot of difference though - you'd never ever boost DEX (in that system) on a wizard or RES (in that system) on a fighter. Or at least, it would be obnoxious to do so. Which would Monk abilities use, spells or physical? What about Barbarian shouts? Nah... IMO that system still breaks one of their fundamental design goals for the attribute system - "All attributes can be useful for all classes". Do I think what we have is perfect? Nope. But have they thought things through and done a pretty good job? I think so. It's miles better than D&D's attributes (if you judge it by Obsidian's design goals, which is the only reasonable way to judge it when you're talking about what decisions Obsidian should make).

Edited by Matt516
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See, that's another feasible split: Accuracy. Between ranged and melee. Dexterity could affect your melee accuracy, while Perception boosted your ranged Accuracy. And Accuracy already applies to both magical AND non-magical attacks, so it's not really one of those "Oh noes, a dump stat for certain classes!" things.

 

That, and the thresholds for things should be lesser. The farther into "Oh noes, if I don't have 18 Perception/Dexterity, I can pretty much only graze this thing!" territory you go, the rarer that defense value should be. You can have very low-Deflection foes with very high DR values against most things (save for a few types of damage). Stuff like that.

 

I'd actually be quite ok with Resolve being repurposed for "soul attack" damage and Might granting "physical attack" damage - at least in theory. That change would play haywire with the attribute balance, though. Not to mention that we'd be right back to a "physical attackers pump MIG, magic attackers pump RES" situation.

Sure, but, if you built the classes right, that wouldn't have to mean "Class X pump MIG, Class Y pump RES." It's just like the ranged/melee scale. You can have a stat only be helpful to ranged attacks, and that's fine, because any class can freely focus on ranged attacks or melee attacks, if they so choose (except maybe Monk? *shrug*).

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I disagree with some of the original complaint.  Being high on might does not make one into Conan.  Might is not necessarily strength or endurance.  Might is eEither force of will or force of arms or force of spells; as in "Rod of Lordly Might" for the D&Ders.  It makes sense.  A high strength character might be absolutely horrible at using a sword, since there's more to it than just swinging hard.

 

As for high INT this is Intellect, not intelligence, not education, not insight, etc.  For a sword wielder this means knowing how to find openings, how to react fast to changing combat, and how to use your weapons well.  Conan in the books and movies is very easy to conceive of as high Int; he's not stupid by any means.  Or look at Mohammed Ali as well.  Stupid fighters are bad fighters.

 

The system as it is works.  It's new and interesting, not the same old worn out stereotype.  I think some of the "it's not intuitive" feelings come from a few decades of D&D dominating the fantasy RPG landscape.

 

The other thing the system seems to be good at is making it not matter too much if you max out one stat at the expense of others or trying to balance them out more.  More time spent playing and having fun and less time agonizing over starting stats.

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