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I do agree with you about large portion of your post: the combat in POE is much less dynamic and I don't like it. This is mostly because of the ****ty engagement system .

 

I also miss the epic battles of BG 2, chaotic commands, resist fear then pierce magic/breach/lower resistance/remove magick and just then you could attack effectively with all sorts of different strategies...

 

Alas the combat in this game is still fun. Not amazing but fun...

 

To be honest, I turned it off, and I slept with unlimited camp supplies. It did not help that much. The short range of spells, no precast before combat... You know, I had alot of fun toasting ogres with fireballs in BG. Or stealthing in with my rogue and one shotting the mage before combat began. I know this is not BG and it's pointless to say that we need BG, but this is so far from it. They basically went in the opposite direction.

 

I get your point, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.

The thing is that, as far as I understood from the dev videos that they made during production, they were looking to get rid of pre-buffs from the very beginning. The idea was, that even in BG, in order to use pre-buffs efficiently, you had to know what actually lie ahead - something, that your character obviously has no way of knowing.

As such, pre-buffs were a bit of a meta-game advantage. Getting rid of them was done primarily for immersion and I'm sure that had they gone the opposite rout a la BG, some people would be crying how it breaks the immersion.

Also, as someone else said, you can still use consumables to buff your party before a big fight. Sure, eating some berries is not the same as casting Bless or a Magic Circle Against Evil, but still.

Me, personally - I like the game so far and feel it is a worthy successor to the Infinity games.

Waiter! Fresh underwear, seven blankets and a bucket of moist towelettes!

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Truth be told, prebuffing was kind of a joke in late stages of BG2 for example. You would die instantly without it and then after reload youd have everyone drink like 5 potions each, cast 3-4 spells and then start combat.
That doesn't seem so nice thinking about it so many years later. Come to think about it I probably preffer the "no prebuffing chaos" of PoE.

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Can someone explain how prebuffing was fun? I am also an ie vet who still does scs runs of both BG games each year. Having to cast every reasonable duration prebuff before every combat of any consequence is tedious as hell. Off the top of my head. Prot from evil. Death ward (individually) Sequencers and contingencies (these were awesome though). Chaotic commands. Stoneskin. Iron skins. Then when you are about to go in maybe a prayer and some of the shorter duration stuff. It was tedious in the extreme, it's not tactical when it's mandatory. At least there's now an opportunity cost of casting a buff spell, whether it's balanced properly or not

 

I don't prebuff anymore in the games with the exception of the sensible ones, who wouldn't walk round with permanent stone skin or if it would be clear to the party a fight was coming.

 

Don't get me wrong I loved IE combat but prebuffing was not in any way whatsoever interesting.

 

I can understand the camp supply although I think it's an improvement. Resting for 8 days while you finish d arnise hold was immersion breaking for me. Now I force myself to get by on the supplies I have so you have to clear stuff in 24 hours game time.

 

Movement, it's not been implemented perfectly but agree if your Mage gets caught he shouldn't be able to just turn and walk away with no consequences. I'm firmly in the thought it might suck but actually enjoying it camp. Main issues for me is its a bit easy and the caster ai is terrible.

Edited by ComplyOrDie
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I was so sick of pre-buffing etc etc, and then a bum rush when spells ran out before you spam rested. PoE is making me think more tactically than any IE game ever did.

 

 

 

I agree. PoE combats are better (for me) than in BG. They need more adaptation, decisions, taking opportunities etc. You have to ask when trigger such abiliie/spell, find the right moment, the right position etc... I am a big fan of BG but the fights were a bit too much "you know the routine, apply". 

 

I also really like how it handles the moves in combat. Try to disengage at the wrong moment and you're immediatly punished.

You have to fight the ennemies but also to fight the inherent chos of the battle. It works pretty well for me.

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IE combat seemed good back then when there was no other game played like that. After 15 years, IE combat sucks major ass. Having played BG2 last summer and IWD enhanced preveously, I can tell it is a great thing they didn't do it the same way. I really like this combat. It's fast-paced, the encounters are good, the abilities also and you can pin enemies down with the engagement mechanic which I like a lot.

 

IE games were 15 years age. Time to move on.

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I also agree that the combat is a whole lot better

 

What I miss from e.g. BG is larger, more open wilderness maps, and random encounters. especially since there are no kill XP, random encounters would be nice as they are not so expoitable, and a few goodies and special encounters could be thrown in there.

 

But I'm not too far into the game yet so maybe there is something to come.

 

Without any randomness in encounters etc I fear the replayability will not be the same as BG (which I am also currently replaying for the nth time).I should say I prefer BG to BG2 simply for the additional optional wilderness adventuring possibilities.

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I also agree that the combat is a whole lot better

 

What I miss from e.g. BG is larger, more open wilderness maps, and random encounters. especially since there are no kill XP, random encounters would be nice as they are not so expoitable, and a few goodies and special encounters could be thrown in there.

 

But I'm not too far into the game yet so maybe there is something to come.

 

Without any randomness in encounters etc I fear the replayability will not be the same as BG (which I am also currently replaying for the nth time).I should say I prefer BG to BG2 simply for the additional optional wilderness adventuring possibilities.

I do miss being waylaid by enemies and having to defend myself, must admit. Edited by ComplyOrDie
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I also agree that the combat is a whole lot better

 

What I miss from e.g. BG is larger, more open wilderness maps, and random encounters. especially since there are no kill XP, random encounters would be nice as they are not so expoitable, and a few goodies and special encounters could be thrown in there.

 

But I'm not too far into the game yet so maybe there is something to come.

 

Without any randomness in encounters etc I fear the replayability will not be the same as BG (which I am also currently replaying for the nth time).I should say I prefer BG to BG2 simply for the additional optional wilderness adventuring possibilities.

 

It feels really great struggling to kill stuff at lvl 10 in the Kickstarter dungeon and you don't get xp. Really rewarding. Glad the combat is so tactical and challenging and just really different every encounter, that I don't care about the xp. 

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All i can say that i really happy that pre buffing is gone. Casting a hundred buffs before i attack was never fun for me.

 

I´m starting to really USE the engagement system. I took a while and now its makes fights much more tactical. Now positioning is so important and the question "Who should attack first?"

 

And the supply system is great. Of course i did the fight /rest/ fight/ rest in the IE games and it always felt wrong.

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I can't say I sympathize with people who get nostalgic for BG's combat system. The combat mechanics were always the worst part of that game. They weren't great in 1998 and they still aren't today.

 

If you think that mage spells can't make a difference in PoE, you're wrong. An AoE blind, or knockdown, or confuse, is devastating when properly placed.

If you think that mage spells can't be placed properly, then STACK MORE INTELLIGENCE. Intelligence increases AoE size, and teammates are never hurt by spells if they're inside that bonus area.

If you complain that combat isn't tactical, and then complain about engagement... I just don't know what to say. Have you tried using the abilities based around engagement?

If you pine for the days when you could stealth in and assassinate the enemy mage, then I highly suggest you try training up stealth in PoE and setting up a coordinated attack on an enemy. 6 simultaneous attacks from your party of arquebus-weilding mofos will turn most things in the game into a fine red mist.

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All i can say that i really happy that pre buffing is gone. Casting a hundred buffs before i attack was never fun for me.

 

I´m starting to really USE the engagement system. I took a while and now its makes fights much more tactical. Now positioning is so important and the question "Who should attack first?"

Yea, but now you have to buff DURING combat all the while enemies are trying to chew on you. And some of them are chewing quite hard right from the start of combat. So I don't think it's better, it seems it's just different for being different sake. I also don't get why can't a rogue backstab ppl out of combat.

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I personally suck at this combat system because I was so used to pre buffing and resting before every difficult fight ala neverwinter nights 1.

 

Right now, I have resorted to using eder, pallegina, and durance as a meatshield with EVERYONE ELSE using guns of some description to overcome DR with alot of accuracy buffs from auras and the chanter buffs. Every time I case a fireball, the fireball doesn't really deal enough damage to spend the time trying to position Aloth accordingly. Lightning bolt though  does feel powerful. Priestly spells wise, I am not sure when to use any of Durances spells other than the heals because 32 hours in, I still don't know what certain monster types are strong or weak against other than the obvious ones (Red Drakes/Dragons are resistant to fire)

 

also, I have no idea what it means by "Of" for enchants...

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All i can say that i really happy that pre buffing is gone. Casting a hundred buffs before i attack was never fun for me.

 

I´m starting to really USE the engagement system. I took a while and now its makes fights much more tactical. Now positioning is so important and the question "Who should attack first?"

Yea, but now you have to buff DURING combat all the while enemies are trying to chew on you. And some of them are chewing quite hard right from the start of combat. So I don't think it's better, it seems it's just different for being different sake. I also don't get why can't a rogue backstab ppl out of combat.

 

 

Thing is, buffing now is a trade off - you're doing instead of casting offensive spells or attacking. That makes it a genuine choice. You have to think about the best option to take. You have to make tactical decisions based on the circumstances. Back in the IE games, there was no reason not to pre-buff, there was basically no choice, it was an utter no-brainer.

Edited by PhroX
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All i can say that i really happy that pre buffing is gone. Casting a hundred buffs before i attack was never fun for me.

 

I´m starting to really USE the engagement system. I took a while and now its makes fights much more tactical. Now positioning is so important and the question "Who should attack first?"

Yea, but now you have to buff DURING combat all the while enemies are trying to chew on you. And some of them are chewing quite hard right from the start of combat. So I don't think it's better, it seems it's just different for being different sake. I also don't get why can't a rogue backstab ppl out of combat.

 

You can only cast buffs inside combat. Result: you have to decide whether buffing is worth it, vs repositioning your party or throwing out a damaging spell. It makes buffing part of the combat mechanics.

 

Also, you CAN backstab people "out of combat" (if your stealth is high enough to get that close before being discovered). In addition, all attacks made within the first 2 seconds of combat count as sneak attacks.

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Every time I case a fireball, the fireball doesn't really deal enough damage to spend the time trying to position Aloth accordingly.

Fireball is weirdly weak (and pointless) in this game.

 
Fan of Flames, a level one spell, deals 40-55 base damage.

Fireball, a level THREE spell, deals only 25-35 base damage.

 

really don't know why you would ever use Fireball when Noxious Burst exists. It's also a level three spell, but deals more damage AND sickens anyone caught in the blast.

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Also a IE veteran here. The thing I liked least about IE games was the underlying D&D mechanics (and their execution) that made things like pre-buffing and spoiler knowledge important. Save or Die spells are horrible, and PoE really did a good job of making the whole game less about lucking out on rolls (They saved against your 1 level 9 spell! Yay!) while still making combat feel dangerous. Don't get me wrong, in the end the D&D mechanics still allowed for great games, but they were the weak link.

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Thing is, buffing now is a trade off - you're doing instead of casting offensive spells or attacking. That makes it a genuine choice. You have to think about the best option to take. You have to make tactical decisions based on the circumstances. Back in the IE games, there was no reason not to pre-buff, there was basically no choice, it was an utter no-brainer.

No. In the IE games, the tradeoff was that if you pre-buff, you have fewer spells to use for combat. In PoE, this tradeoff is still there, but now there's an additional opportunity cost tradeoff: combat is really fast so by the time you've managed to cast a few buffs, it's basically over anyway. This makes most buffs which only affect the caster utterly worthless while the party-wide buffs are a mixed bag.

 

I understand their reasoning behind getting rid of the pre-buffs, but the system they used as a replacement is at least as problematic and possibly even more so.

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Thing is, buffing now is a trade off - you're doing instead of casting offensive spells or attacking. That makes it a genuine choice. You have to think about the best option to take. You have to make tactical decisions based on the circumstances. Back in the IE games, there was no reason not to pre-buff, there was basically no choice, it was an utter no-brainer.

No. In the IE games, the tradeoff was that if you pre-buff, you have fewer spells to use for combat. In PoE, this tradeoff is still there, but now there's an additional opportunity cost tradeoff: combat is really fast so by the time you've managed to cast a few buffs, it's basically over anyway. This makes most buffs which only affect the caster utterly worthless while the party-wide buffs are a mixed bag.

 

I understand their reasoning behind getting rid of the pre-buffs, but the system they used as a replacement is at least as problematic and possibly even more so.

 

I feel the same way too, combat is too fast for what it is, even on slow speed.

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Thing is, buffing now is a trade off - you're doing instead of casting offensive spells or attacking. That makes it a genuine choice. You have to think about the best option to take. You have to make tactical decisions based on the circumstances. Back in the IE games, there was no reason not to pre-buff, there was basically no choice, it was an utter no-brainer.

No. In the IE games, the tradeoff was that if you pre-buff, you have fewer spells to use for combat. In PoE, this tradeoff is still there, but now there's an additional opportunity cost tradeoff: combat is really fast so by the time you've managed to cast a few buffs, it's basically over anyway. This makes most buffs which only affect the caster utterly worthless while the party-wide buffs are a mixed bag.

 

I understand their reasoning behind getting rid of the pre-buffs, but the system they used as a replacement is at least as problematic and possibly even more so.

 

 

Given the nature and number of spells in IE games, together with the easy availability of rest, this was a false trade-off in virtually all cases. It was far more problematic.

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Removing pre-buffing and rest spam is only a good thing. Not everything PoE does is perfect and you may not agree with some of the design decisions, but BG combat is not perfect and has issues as well (hiding in plain sight during battles as if invisible, armour making you harder to hit as opposed to reducing damage, save or die spells, etc).

 

I will agree that some Wizard spells need to be re-tooled (Fan of Flames damage, Fireball damage, Wizard's Double and spells that are permanent until you're hit, etc).

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I am quietly confident Obsidian will refine and tweak combat in future patches based on a wider pool of player feedback than existed in the Beta.

 

Modders might also be able to create alternative combat tweaks. I don't want an IE / D&D clone by any stretch of the imagination, just a system that is redolent of it.

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Thing is, buffing now is a trade off - you're doing instead of casting offensive spells or attacking. That makes it a genuine choice. You have to think about the best option to take. You have to make tactical decisions based on the circumstances. Back in the IE games, there was no reason not to pre-buff, there was basically no choice, it was an utter no-brainer.

No. In the IE games, the tradeoff was that if you pre-buff, you have fewer spells to use for combat. In PoE, this tradeoff is still there, but now there's an additional opportunity cost tradeoff: combat is really fast so by the time you've managed to cast a few buffs, it's basically over anyway. This makes most buffs which only affect the caster utterly worthless while the party-wide buffs are a mixed bag.

 

I understand their reasoning behind getting rid of the pre-buffs, but the system they used as a replacement is at least as problematic and possibly even more so.

 

 

Given the nature and number of spells in IE games, together with the easy availability of rest, this was a false trade-off in virtually all cases. It was far more problematic.

 

 

Exactly. There was no meaningful drawback to pre-buffing other than it being boring.

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This makes most buffs which only affect the caster utterly worthless while the party-wide buffs are a mixed bag.

Looking at the wizard self-target buffs, yes and no.

 

Some of them (eldritch aim, deleterious alacrity) can be quite good in major fights. +15 accuracy to all your spellcasting can be a huge difference when you're throwing out AoEs.

Some of them (flame shield, stone skin) seem pretty pointless unless you're using your wizard as your main tank. Which just from looking at the wizard spells actually seems pretty do-able, but it means those spells are worthless if you're using your wizard like back-lines artillery.

 

A lot of the priest AOE buff spells seem really terrible to me, though.

 

Prayer Against Restraint.

Level 3 priest spell.

+50 defense against hobbled and stuck, for 30 seconds (5m range, 2.5m radius)

 

I haven't ever used this ^ spell, and I probably never will. Especially when I could cast

 

Suppress Affliction

Level 2 priest spell

Negates all negative status effects for 15 seconds (5m range, 2.5m radius, affects Allies only)

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Combat in those old IE games was pretty bad. I finished both BG games a few times on the hardest difficulty soloing with my op builds. Normal encounters were ridiculously easy and not a challenge at all. Then you have prepared boss fights with 10 prebuffs, 10 potions with dispelling enemy buffs or waiting for them to wear off and destroy them i 3 seconds.

 

I find funny all those "IE VETERANS" who prefer BG combat because clearly they don't prefer it for balance but because how easy it was to make op characters and "feel powerfull". Yes PoE is not perfect, but it's miles ahead of IE combat even now with those silly bugs.

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