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I love paladins, in all games, ALL games (in Age of Empires II I would play with the Franks just to spam Paladins with +15% of HP)

 

 

So... Paladins on this game has some issues:

 

First, they are supposed to be some elite fighting force, but they aren't... they are not good at tanking, and not good at dealing damage either.

 

Figthers are good tanks though.

 

Second, the lore of the paladins is not that interesting, there are five orders, but I saw few interesting stuff about them in the game, people rarely react to my char order, and then I found out the order talents are WILDLY unbalanced (the shielbearers for example are really weak compared to the wayfarers, that have some crazy AoE heals).

 

Third, paladins are only really viable as tanks if you use godlike race (that can do stuff like crazy AoE heals or other stuff that is synergistic with some order talents).

 

Fourth, the paladins defensive bonus at least to me seemly don't work, the paladin still die as fast as anyone else, even without their engagement (meaning enemies only hit the paladin when the paladin is lost in the fray... otherwise enemies are hitting the fighters, because of their engagement, or running around trying to reach the squishies).

 

Fifth, although many places says that following certain behaviours improve your bonuses, I saw no such thing, following (or not following) the behaviours made absolutely no difference (and no, I didn't take the talent that changes that, in part because it was already not working, so I assumed the talent would be just wasting points).

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Fourth, the paladins defensive bonus at least to me seemly don't work, the paladin still die as fast as anyone else, even without their engagement (meaning enemies only hit the paladin when the paladin is lost in the fray... otherwise enemies are hitting the fighters, because of their engagement, or running around trying to reach the squishies).

 

Fifth, although many places says that following certain behaviours improve your bonuses, I saw no such thing, following (or not following) the behaviours made absolutely no difference (and no, I didn't take the talent that changes that, in part because it was already not working, so I assumed the talent would be just wasting points).

 

There's an equipment bug right now that is probably removing that bonus.

Edited by Abraxis
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Yup. Probably just a bug.

 

That said, Fighters are THE tanks to go with currently. That said, that is also all they do better than anyone else.

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"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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By the way, I think that something that can be done to improve paladins without changing them too much (ie: a solution to make them "suck less") is balance better the order talents.

 

I saw some people on reddit describing how the Wayfarers are absolutely OP, with they preventing your party from getting KOd all the time (ie: you only lose fights with wayfarers in your party if someone runs out of health and straight out dies).

 

While like I said, I am using a shieldbearer... (That I picked based on the lore, assuming it would be a good defensive character, a literal shieldbearer), and... all they can do is give a small deflection bonus with lay on hands (That is by itself currently a very weak skill, not because the amount it heals, that is actually decent, but because either it is too limited to reliably heal lots of people, or later is too bothersome to use, spamming minor area heals from items and cleric spells is way more useful).

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I like my paladin! although i'd agree many of his abilities are somewhat useless, in the level up screen i keep pondering which is the LEAST bad trait i should take, while when i level the warrior i see so many good traits i keep thinking which trait is the least GOOD one because they're all good :D

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Fourth, the paladins defensive bonus at least to me seemly don't work, the paladin still die as fast as anyone else, even without their engagement (meaning enemies only hit the paladin when the paladin is lost in the fray... otherwise enemies are hitting the fighters, because of their engagement, or running around trying to reach the squishies).

 

Fifth, although many places says that following certain behaviours improve your bonuses, I saw no such thing, following (or not following) the behaviours made absolutely no difference (and no, I didn't take the talent that changes that, in part because it was already not working, so I assumed the talent would be just wasting points).

 

There's an equipment bug right now that is probably removing that bonus.

 

 

What is that bug and how does it work?

t50aJUd.jpg

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It ultimately doesn't matter - yes maybe a fighter would be marginally better, but a Paladin tank is, for all practical purposes, just as well.  Playing through this game I've found that rather than sneaking around, using my Paladin tank to trigger traps is far better - because even AoE traps miss him or deal no damage.  You can also create some pretty solid Paladin DPS builds if you're of a mind, perhaps there are other classes that would DPS better than them, but it's not a competitive endeavor.   The easiest Paladin DPS build is to combine a fire arm with your "smite" type ability (pretty easy to tack different damage types onto that) and then smite them with holy arquebus fire - you can get some pretty dastardly hits in with that, particularly if you've got a bit of might.  Then once you've fired your shot, you wade into melee - I'd presume either with a 2h sword or dual wielding + you'd have some auras to provide extra deflection, or be able to heal yourself on occasion.  That's how I've utilized a certain somebody you get as a joinable npc - and it works great she can blast people for well over 80 damage a shot just to begin combat, not to mention what she'll do once she gets to choppin'. 

Edited by Gallenger
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I love paladins, in all games, ALL games (in Age of Empires II I would play with the Franks just to spam Paladins with +15% of HP)

 

 

So... Paladins on this game has some issues:

 

First, they are supposed to be some elite fighting force, but they aren't... they are not good at tanking, and not good at dealing damage either.

 

Figthers are good tanks though.

 

Second, the lore of the paladins is not that interesting, there are five orders, but I saw few interesting stuff about them in the game, people rarely react to my char order, and then I found out the order talents are WILDLY unbalanced (the shielbearers for example are really weak compared to the wayfarers, that have some crazy AoE heals).

 

Third, paladins are only really viable as tanks if you use godlike race (that can do stuff like crazy AoE heals or other stuff that is synergistic with some order talents).

 

Fourth, the paladins defensive bonus at least to me seemly don't work, the paladin still die as fast as anyone else, even without their engagement (meaning enemies only hit the paladin when the paladin is lost in the fray... otherwise enemies are hitting the fighters, because of their engagement, or running around trying to reach the squishies).

 

Fifth, although many places says that following certain behaviours improve your bonuses, I saw no such thing, following (or not following) the behaviours made absolutely no difference (and no, I didn't take the talent that changes that, in part because it was already not working, so I assumed the talent would be just wasting points).

 

What?

 

You must be suffering from some kind of bug (Losing the defence bonus?). Paladins are awesome tanks. I've tried two very similar tanks the first few levels and I wouldnt go back to to the fighter for pure tanking. Why? Well, because the fighter just stands around there taking damage while the paladin adds a very nice aura and has the ability to self-heal. Sure, the fighter can take knockdown which can be very good, but not on a pure fighter (at least not on PotD), because with a large shield and possibly other negatives the fighters lousy accuracy will cause him/her to miss or graze very often and the low intelligence will cut its duration in half anyway.

 

As for your other comments, I wouldn't go godlike at all, Orlans are the way to go for tanks imo, they both have a useful racial and perfect stats for tanking (why would you want +1dex and +1int?). The improved bonuses from behavior works as intended as well, but it increases not from every single behavior but when your reputation increases. Check your char screen. Every point in your approved behaviors will give you more defence stats. 

 

EDIT: The only reason I even considered the fighter is that their engagement-limit modal can lock some opponents in place, which is actually useful now when the AI considers changing targets now and then. However, this does now happen very often, and when you block a doorway or something it doesn't matter. 

Edited by ISC
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I've not been playing much since I'm abroad, but my paladin is working pretty well (level 3) with a rapier / dagger, dual-wielding and a polearm for 2H hack and slash when needed. He's wearing leather armour.

 

You have to be careful, and I've yet to figure out the byzantine PoE mechanics fully, but for some reason missile weapons seem to miss me completely.

 

I might roll a NPC fighter to meatshield for him but as a main character it doesn't feel gimped. Not as tanky as I'd like but certainly not gimped.

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I also picked Shieldbearer as it sounded like the one most interesting. Didn't even know the orders got different talents but I sure wish I had picke a different one. The bonus deflect on the lay on hands is so pathetically weak I want to restart just to get rid of that crap

Overall it feels like the balance in this game is way off which is not really surprising as it's a huge undertaking creating a whole new RPG system like this

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I also picked Shieldbearer as it sounded like the one most interesting. Didn't even know the orders got different talents but I sure wish I had picke a different one. The bonus deflect on the lay on hands is so pathetically weak I want to restart just to get rid of that crap

Overall it feels like the balance in this game is way off which is not really surprising as it's a huge undertaking creating a whole new RPG system like this

 

I dont think any order-specific talent is very useful though.

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I also picked Shieldbearer as it sounded like the one most interesting. Didn't even know the orders got different talents but I sure wish I had picke a different one. The bonus deflect on the lay on hands is so pathetically weak I want to restart just to get rid of that crap

Overall it feels like the balance in this game is way off which is not really surprising as it's a huge undertaking creating a whole new RPG system like this

 

I dont think any order-specific talent is very useful though.

 

Not even the Kind Wayfarer's Strange Mercy talent that grants endurance to the paladin and nearby allies whenever the paladin defeats an enemy? Sure, it won't be that useful if you make your paladin into a tank with defensive stats and sword & board, but if you make him into a DW or 2H damagedealer with offensive stats?

 

 

 

Buff the righteous warriors of light.

I have a hard time seeing how any of the five paladin orders available to players can be considered "righteous warriors of light" except as a joke.

 

 

Darcozzi Paladini - elite agents of the Darcozzi family, known for their extreme loyalty towards the family member they serve, participating in intrigue and plots including against other members of the large family.

 

Goldpact Knights - mercenaries adhering to a code of honouring their contracts. These are the mercenaries to hire if you want henchmen you can rely on regardless of danger or morality, as they don't let such minor issues sway them from what is important, namely money. In other words, they are the ideal mercenaries.

 

Bleak Walkers - unyielding warriors devoted to the ideal of ending conflicts swiftly regardless of costs to others. These are the guys to call if you want to burn a village to save it for its own good. Or for your own good, for the matter.

 

The Shieldbearers of St. Elcga - professional warrior-diplomats, who believe you get further with a kind word than a cruel.

 

The Kind Wayfarers - Guides and protectors of travelers. Earn lunch money by selling maps, travel guides, and acting as paid tour guides.

Edited by pi2repsion

When I said death before dishonour, I meant it alphabetically.

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I also picked Shieldbearer as it sounded like the one most interesting. Didn't even know the orders got different talents but I sure wish I had picke a different one. The bonus deflect on the lay on hands is so pathetically weak I want to restart just to get rid of that crap

Overall it feels like the balance in this game is way off which is not really surprising as it's a huge undertaking creating a whole new RPG system like this

 

I dont think any order-specific talent is very useful though.

 

Not even the Kind Wayfarer's Strange Mercy talent that grants endurance to the paladin and nearby allies whenever the paladin defeats an enemy?

 

Well, I dont know about the numbers, but I guess that if you would go with some kind of DPS paladin that might make sense. However, a DPS paladin wouldnt make much sense, especially with the nerf to.. eh.. +burndmg /encounter ability. Assuming that you have a tank paladin instead, which makes a whole lot of sense, you will not be doing much killing at all. Hardly ever. I mean, you would have really really low might, your less-than-perfect accuracy would be further nerfed through the floor by your large shield. Wielding a hatchet with negative might and no damage bonuses, grazing enemies with some damage reduction.. yeah. My paladin hits people for about 0,7 on average. Lets just say he doesn't kill people ;)

 

EDIT Although he sometimes fires a pistol for about 20 damage, if he hits, so he might have gotten some kills (usually in the opening of combat though). In any case, even if the paladin gets a kill or two now and then, would that justify taking that talent over.. I dont know, +6 accuracy aura? +to all defences? Hardly.

Edited by ISC
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I have to agree with OP on this, the Paladin felt very lacking compared to most of the other classes in this game. They're decent tanks, but I found the Fighter to be much better with their Defender ability and knockdown skills. I feel like a Priest with heavy armor would actually be a more fun and versatile Paladin than the actual Paladin class. 

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I have to agree with OP on this, the Paladin felt very lacking compared to most of the other classes in this game. They're decent tanks, but I found the Fighter to be much better with their Defender ability and knockdown skills. I feel like a Priest with heavy armor would actually be a more fun and versatile Paladin than the actual Paladin class. 

Yep, I found out this is... intentional :/

 

There is a interview that Josh said that they wanted to "Twist things a bit" and so they turned the D&D Paladin into Cleric, and the D&D Warlord into Paladin

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I also picked Shieldbearer as it sounded like the one most interesting. Didn't even know the orders got different talents but I sure wish I had picke a different one. The bonus deflect on the lay on hands is so pathetically weak I want to restart just to get rid of that crap

Overall it feels like the balance in this game is way off which is not really surprising as it's a huge undertaking creating a whole new RPG system like this

 

I dont think any order-specific talent is very useful though.

 

Not even the Kind Wayfarer's Strange Mercy talent that grants endurance to the paladin and nearby allies whenever the paladin defeats an enemy? Sure, it won't be that useful if you make your paladin into a tank with defensive stats and sword & board, but if you make him into a DW or 2H damagedealer with offensive stats?

 

 

 

Buff the righteous warriors of light.

I have a hard time seeing how any of the five paladin orders available to players can be considered "righteous warriors of light" except as a joke.

 

 

Darcozzi Paladini - elite agents of the Darcozzi family, known for their extreme loyalty towards the family member they serve, participating in intrigue and plots including against other members of the large family.

 

Goldpact Knights - mercenaries adhering to a code of honouring their contracts. These are the mercenaries to hire if you want henchmen you can rely on regardless of danger or morality, as they don't let such minor issues sway them from what is important, namely money. In other words, they are the ideal mercenaries.

 

Bleak Walkers - unyielding warriors devoted to the ideal of ending conflicts swiftly regardless of costs to others. These are the guys to call if you want to burn a village to save it for its own good. Or for your own good, for the matter.

 

The Shieldbearers of St. Elcga - professional warrior-diplomats, who believe you get further with a kind word than a cruel.

 

The Kind Wayfarers - Guides and protectors of travelers. Earn lunch money by selling maps, travel guides, and acting as paid tour guides.

 

That part was a joke indeed, the part about buffing them wasn't.

Edited by Isi1dur
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There is this system in gaming generally, or there used to be, where balance was not necessary, the game I am most familiar with is Diablo 2 in this regard.

 

In that game I only play hardcore, so you die, it's over. The grand majority of my time was spent there before respecs were available.

 

You could make an Amazon, you could make the ultimate fighter, a Zon with 20 in Charged Strike, 20 Lightning Fury, a strong valk, with Witchwild String on switch, and clear an 8 player game yourself, or you could build a Spearazon, and have a way harder time of it.

 

I don't remember a lot of whining about how the Spearies were bad, just some builds are more effective than others and you get to pick what you want to do and how easy you want the game to be. I played a Speary through Hell/Hell, solo on players 3, and it was torture.

 

This game has a lot of variance, and a lot of ways to build your party; I never hired any adventurers, but you can, and your game will be much easier for it. I don't want all Paladin builds to be perfectly balanced, all I want is for them to be viable.

 

So, there is a bit of a bug with double click equipping items (something I hadn't tried anyway), I can tell you that while Pell, who is hardly optimally built, is not quite the tank Eder is, she is a beast.

 

Balance, balance, balance...yuck, I just want viable, and then variance beyond that.

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Paladins are great at tanking, had lot of hp, but you need to build them for tanking, and paladins are great at dealing damage, but the same, you wont have a paladin great at both things.

 

I use Palledina (il probably write it wrong), with a 2 handed sword, with the burn effect, talents (+20% damage with burn, +15% damage with two handed .. the focus .. the skill that hits with +100% fire damage, the bonus efects on enemy kill .. ) i also use items that give me per rest skills that retaliate with fire on being hit ..

that hits about 30-50 or so per hit ... its not low, and i even go with full plate armor, she does enought damage. (My main does terrifing amounts of damage yes, but she falls in 1 hit=

 

Still its not an optimized char, and she can take a lot of hits so ...in the end, like a d&d Paladin, good damage with good survavility.

 

PD: if you add at hight level the chant that gives +25 damage in fire is just crazy ...

 

 

Optimized One: (without using the modal of extra damage)

 

w9bqzd.jpg

Edited by Arctic
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I have to agree with OP on this, the Paladin felt very lacking compared to most of the other classes in this game. They're decent tanks, but I found the Fighter to be much better with their Defender ability and knockdown skills. I feel like a Priest with heavy armor would actually be a more fun and versatile Paladin than the actual Paladin class. 

Yep, I found out this is... intentional :/

 

There is a interview that Josh said that they wanted to "Twist things a bit" and so they turned the D&D Paladin into Cleric, and the D&D Warlord into Paladin

 

never heard the d&d paladin being turned into a poe cleric... and it sure don't play that way.

 

however, yes, the poe paladin is inspired not so much by the d&d paladin but by the 4e warlord and the 3.5 marshal.  the paladin is a low maintenance support class that is excellent in defense.  there is/were some few gun builds that allow ridiculous damage 2x per encounter, but the paladin is a support class.  yeah, if your paladin takes cautious attack, sword and shield and a few other talents, you can create an ok tank, but it won't be as good as a fighter or sword & board monk.  that is ok, 'cause the paladin is a freaking support class in poe.  

 

the paladin gameplay can be boring.  there simple is not much to do with a paladin, particularly a tanky paladin. is very little micromanagement necessary to have your paladin stay upright for the duration o' a battle, and your per encounter abilities, while mighty useful, is only situationally applicable.

 

poe paladins is a support class that can be customized to fill other roles with varying degrees o' success.  the poe paladin is Not a d&d paladin.  

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin

 

the nature and limitations o' the poe paladin were not a secret.  that being said, we did mention, many times, that folks would continue to trip over the naming choices for poe classes.  am not surprised by the confusion. folks playing poe won't be able to give up the ghost even when they is told that a poe paladin or rogue don't function same as a d&d paladin or rogue.  heck, poe board regulars who read and applauded the linked announcement in 2013 were still fighting to make the paladin a front-line tank who could also dish out melee hurt as recent as beta 480.  weird.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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 the poe paladin is Not a d&d paladin.  

 

 

 

Reading this thread, it's like if some believe that D&D invented the name "paladin". I see paladins in PoE like templars or teutonic knights. An order of dedicated warriors/knights.

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 it won't be as good as a fighter or sword & board monk

 

I fully agree with Gromnir, except on this. Or rather, I am probably missing something. What are the advantages of the fighter, multiple engagement? late game DR boost? Wont the fighters defenses be lower anyway? As for the monk, I thought the conclusion was that the monk was an ok tank with some offensive capabilities (as opposed to the other two)? Obviously the monk can negate some (10%?) damage if that is still in the game, and will have slightly more hp/endurance, but somewhat less defense again.

 

 

 

 the poe paladin is Not a d&d paladin.  

 

 

 

Reading this thread, it's like if some believe that D&D invented the name "paladin". I see paladins in PoE like templars or teutonic knights. An order of dedicated warriors/knights.

 

 

Its just nostalgia, but I think you got it right according to the way poe paladins are described in the game. They have a much broader concept which basically comes down to being part of an organization dedicated to an ideal (i.e. an order).

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