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The survival disparity between rogues and fighters is just so huge it really hampers the usefulness of melee rogues.  Especially since the AI will immediately switch to you even when you engage from behind.

It's not that huge if you stack Deflect.  

Granted, hitting 120+ Deflect is a bit hard, but 80-100 is doable by level 5-6.  

 

Also, I haven't noticed AI immediately switching, as long as the enemies are properly engaged by the fighter/ot.

Edited by Fimconte

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Getting nice 2hander backstab as rogue is pure joy, yea not as safe as going ranged but meh, the game is not supposed to be too easy anyway :)

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Anyone know a good Arquebus Rogue build?  I've heard mixed things :(

 

Arbalest is pretty much just better than Aquebus currently. Both are in soldier weapon group though which pike is as well which is also a good rogue weapon.

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I understood general principles, but what about other attributes, that are not necessary for damaging builds? If I generate main character with intelligence 10, will it impact on dialog options (restrict possible choices and so on)?

 

Resolve (opens options to persuade people, this don't necessary lead better results but you can get people do as you want), Intellect (gives you options to reason with people, these options also don't necessary lead better result but you are able to be maybe bit more diplomatic) and Perception (this opens options to spot lies, behaviors etc. also these options don't necessary lead better results but you are able to be very perceptive person) open most new conversation options, although DEX opens options to steal stuff or do other bit sneaky actions, which are in some cases nice and might opens options to intimidate people. For CON I don't think I saw even one conversation option during my first play through, but that maybe because I was very diplomatic mass murdered.

 

So yes your dialog choices are restricted in case of any attribute, except possible CON, that you don't boost. Although you can rise attribute 6-9 points with itemization, consumables, and rest bonuses (+ brothel bonuses for main character). So if you have meta knowledge about conversations then you have possibility to boost right attribute before you go in that conversation. 

 

Also you can build rogue that does decent damage around RES, INT, and PER if you want.

 

 

 

 

[...] although Escape ability don't work currently as intended [...]

 

Could you elaborate on that? What does not work? How should it work?

Is it only that it doesn't break the engagement? I'm feeling i got smacked a lot even before "escaping".

My main character is an assassin-like rogue and feels more like a kamikaze fighter than an actual assassin. I'm basically just cannon fodder.

 

 

Escape has bug that enemies get to make, at least sometimes,  disengagement attacks against rogue even though ability should prevent that. 

 

I would support assassin rogue with Paladin (Zealous Charge), Chanter (The Fox from the Farmer Did Run and Leap, Blessed Was Wengridh, Quickest of His Tribe), or Priest (Blessing, Armor of Faith).

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I've desperately wanted to try a single-handed rogue build that abuses Dirty/Vicious Fighting, Bloody Salughter, Pallegina's buffed Zealous Focus, and high accuracy to deliver continuous crits. If I'm not mistaken, a sufficiently high accuracy can make continuous, deadly crits possible. Add in Dire Blessing from Durance for extra affect.

 

In fact, I think I'm going to hop in game and try it out now.

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Escape has bug that enemies get to make, at least sometimes,  disengagement attacks against rogue even though ability should prevent that. 

 

I would support assassin rogue with Paladin (Zealous Charge), Chanter (The Fox from the Farmer Did Run and Leap, Blessed Was Wengridh, Quickest of His Tribe), or Priest (Blessing, Armor of Faith).

 

 

OK, I was aware of the engagement problem. So the rest is working as intended?

As I said, I have the feeling that even before using escape I take too much damage. It's not IN the fight directly. There I can navigate etc to prevent taking damage. But I thought I could use my rogue to open the combat and then disappear.

Seems that it just doesn't work this way.

It's a pity. I took talents/abilities for nothing.

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Dual wielding with the rogue just feels broken. You take extra risk fighting in close quarters with little added benefit. Two handers just do so much more damage.

 

 KjxG7Wk.jpg?1

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Dual wielding with the rogue just feels broken. You take extra risk fighting in close quarters with little added benefit. Two handers just do so much more damage.

 

 KjxG7Wk.jpg?1

But you arent counting the benefits of enchanted dual weapons

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I've desperately wanted to try a single-handed rogue build that abuses Dirty/Vicious Fighting, Bloody Salughter, Pallegina's buffed Zealous Focus, and high accuracy to deliver continuous crits. If I'm not mistaken, a sufficiently high accuracy can make continuous, deadly crits possible. Add in Dire Blessing from Durance for extra affect.

 

In fact, I think I'm going to hop in game and try it out now.

 Is single hand build a thing actually? i think is coll but have 0 expereince about that. It can work with a rapier?

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Dual wielding with the rogue just feels broken. You take extra risk fighting in close quarters with little added benefit. Two handers just do so much more damage.

 

 KjxG7Wk.jpg?1

 

You're over emphasizing DR by not calculating sneak attack and might % damage into the equation. Also the 2 hander's bonus is less relevant when considred alongside the other buffs. Also, you have attack speed on dual wielding the same as on a two hander. In fact, you're treating it as if dual wielding is the same as single wielding with a 20% faster attack rate. It's not.

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If you're dual-wielding anything, Vulnerable Attack is a strict improvement in DPS. Unsure if the same applies to two-handers but I doubt it, since DR consumes a smaller proportion of their damage overall.

 

When you've maxed out on DR penetration, it seems to me that with any enemy whose DR you fully bypass, dual-wielding is superior, but when you start dealing with un-penetrated enemy DR, two-handers become better.

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This is the feedback I'm looking for.

 

@SilchasRuin I only have the speed bonus on the dual wield. There are a lot of hidden numbers in the spreadsheet. The attack speed is multiplies by the bonus. I will add might damage and sneak attack to see if it makes a large difference.

 

If I dual wield maces do the DR numbers stack?

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You have to work hard to make melee rogue viale. As stated, the difference in survivability between rogue and fighter is jaw-dropping. :(

 

I made a high perc/resolve rogue (what is fine with me cause of the dialogue-checks given by resolve) and took Guardian Stance for the Fighter. I will try to get my hands on at least one good + Deflection-item.

 

Perhaps I will take even one +defense talent.

 

Right now there is little reason to go melee with rogue. You can go full range build and enjoy the game without any disturbance.

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Melee rogues are perfectly viable. In fact, they arguably do more damage. They're just a lot more maintenance than ranged rogues because you have to pay attention to where they are at all times.

 

I'm also fairly convinced that a single-handed rogue is incredibly viable. You crit insanely often as an Orlan and never graze, meaning your damage is consistently able to string together high damage attacks that pierce through DR with the right weapon selection.

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One issue is that two-handers definitely seem to have a leg over fast one-handers in many situations:

 

Fast 1h weapons attack every 44 frames if dual wielded

2h weapons attack every 84 frames

Thus, the dual wielder hits roughly 2x as often (slightly less actually).

 

But looking at base damage (8-12 vs 20-29), 2h weapons deal more than 2x the damage of 1h weapons.

 

This imbalance alone, combined with the Rogue's opportunity to have many "full attack" abilities with minimal recovery time, means 2h weapons appear strictly superior to dual-wielded fast weapons.

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Also, I haven't noticed AI immediately switching, as long as the enemies are properly engaged by the fighter/ot.

 

The engagement system prevents enemies from moving away from the tank.  Nothing stops them from randomly turning around to engage a different character without moving.  And they will.

Edited by Daemonjax

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One issue is that two-handers definitely seem to have a leg over fast one-handers in many situations:

 

Fast 1h weapons attack every 44 frames if dual wielded

2h weapons attack every 84 frames

Thus, the dual wielder hits roughly 2x as often (slightly less actually).

 

But looking at base damage (8-12 vs 20-29), 2h weapons deal more than 2x the damage of 1h weapons.

 

This imbalance alone, combined with the Rogue's opportunity to have many "full attack" abilities with minimal recovery time, means 2h weapons appear strictly superior to dual-wielded fast weapons.

This isn't necessarily the case (2H being better) when you factor in all of the Rogue's on-hit bonuses... such as sneak attack, reckless assault, dirty fighting, and deep wounds.   All of these should vastly favor fast attacks much more than slow attacks.  I don't have any numbers to back it up, but it makes sense that all of these talents will be way more useful if you're hitting more often!

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I did find one use for Escape. Using it to teleport over your own front line in chokepoints, to get an easy flank. In case someone had the crazy idea in their head to use a PoE rogue like a D&D rogue, and actually go for flank attacks.


Exoduss, on 14 Apr 2015 - 11:11 AM, said: 

 

also secret about hardmode with 6 man party is :  its a faceroll most of the fights you will Auto Attack mobs while lighting your spliff

 

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One issue is that two-handers definitely seem to have a leg over fast one-handers in many situations:

 

Fast 1h weapons attack every 44 frames if dual wielded

2h weapons attack every 84 frames

Thus, the dual wielder hits roughly 2x as often (slightly less actually).

 

But looking at base damage (8-12 vs 20-29), 2h weapons deal more than 2x the damage of 1h weapons.

 

This imbalance alone, combined with the Rogue's opportunity to have many "full attack" abilities with minimal recovery time, means 2h weapons appear strictly superior to dual-wielded fast weapons.

This isn't necessarily the case (2H being better) when you factor in all of the Rogue's on-hit bonuses... such as sneak attack, reckless assault, dirty fighting, and deep wounds.   All of these should vastly favor fast attacks much more than slow attacks.  I don't have any numbers to back it up, but it makes sense that all of these talents will be way more useful if you're hitting more often!

 

 

These are all multipliers, except for Deep Wounds.  Whatever your raw damage is, they multiply it by XX amount (0.5, 0.2, etc).  So the 2h rogue will hit less frequently but very hard leading to damage spikes while the dual-wielder will have more consistent damage over time.  Ultimately, raw damage/time is what matters, and the 2h weapon wins in that regard as I mentioned earlier.

 

As an example, take Reckless Assault, which does +20% damage:

 

Dual wielder swings 2x in 2 seconds for 2*10*(1.2) = 24 damage in two swings over 2 seconds.

2H rogue swings 1x in 2s for 24.5*(1.2) = 29.4 damage in one swing every 2 seconds.

 

The initial damage difference of 24.5 vs 20 is preserved here as 29.4 vs 24.

Edited by AlphaMagnum

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Dual wielding does seem sub-optimal in this game, unless you have effects that proc on hit (like cipher's draining whip, or certain enchants)... and dual wielding axes (at low levels before good shields exist) because the  +deflection effect from both stack.  2H style also requires one less talent because you don't have to worry as much about enemy damage resistance, and the DR bypass talent itself is a tradeoff rather than a straight buff (which is unnecessarily punishing).

Edited by Daemonjax

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Slower weapons (two handed weapons) benefit more from dex than might. 

Fast weapons benefit more from might than dex.

I

 

 

Can you elaborate on this?

 

Seems like Might's % bonus on damage would be more useful on a high damage weapon (2H weapon). Same reasoning applies to the speed bonus on a weapon with high speed.

 

PoE's systems are unlike anything I've seen, so I appreciate any insight/advice.

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I'm running a dual-wield human rogue (sabre and stiletto) with almost no focus on stealth. Don't take backstab because you'll never use it due to the mechanics; instead, focus exclusively on abilities that maximize crits, give status effects for sneak attack, and increase damage/accuracy.

 

18 in Might and 17 Dex (then take archipelago for +1). Constitution at 10, resolve at 9 or 10, and the rest divided however you like between perception and intelligence (remember that INT will determine the length of status effects you inflict).

 

Abilities: blinding strike, crippling strike, dirty fighting, two weapon fighting, and escape (buggy but still useful). I don't use shadowing beyond nearly as much as I thought I would. After that, anything that increases your crit chance or helps bypass damage resistance.

 

For combat, open with a pistol and let your tank rush in to soak up all the engagements. Use the fighter's knockdown ability liberally to create sneak attack conditions, otherwise rely on blinding strike and crippling strike.

 

I don't wear anything heavier than padded armor to keep recovery fast. It's kind of a glass canon build and so will require some micromanagement, but the DPS is awesome. Essential party members: Eder, Durance, and Grieving Mother – the former for their knockdown abilities and the latter for spamming blindness and paralysis.

 

Really enjoying my playthrough with this character, the gibs really start flying around level 4-5 :)

Edited by Purudaya

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