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melee cipher build

cipher melee build skills attributes

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#21
VahnXIII

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Thank you for the input! I settled on 14 Might, 17 Dex, 17 Int, and 10 for the rest. I didn't want to build a true glass cannon. More like I wanted to have a lot of focus to cast spells, but I also wanted to mix and mingle in melee with two blades. 

 

For spells, I took the following:

 

Level 1: Blind (forget the name), Mind Wave (AoE and puts enemies in prone), Antipathetic Field (forgot why I chose this one, sounded like another AoE)

Level 2: Mind Blades (floating blades bouncing between targets, yes), I can't remember the other

 

For skills, I focus on Mechanics. I have 1 stealth, 2 athletics, 7 mechanics, and the rest in lore at this point.

 

For talents, I have Draining Whip. +2 focus on hit with fast weapons = more casting and changing the battlefield. I'm not sure if I should pick up two weapon fighting, biting whip, or whatever next.

 

This set up reminds me of playing a Fightre/Mage/Thief in BG. I can melee, go ranged with a bow or gun, wear light/medium armor and cast spells to deal damage and CC. I feel like this is a well rounded build and I look forward to seeing how it will play out at higher levels.

 

I have Aloth, Eder (he will be my tank. I like his personality), and I'm getting Durance right now. Everyone is level 3. Going to dive into Gilded Vale's side quests now (Aufra's first, then the blacksmith's quest). Then perhaps venture into Gilded Vale's temple? Then Caed Nua? That's how I'm thinking I'll do it.


Edited by VahnXIII, 01 April 2015 - 06:06 AM.


#22
Nokturnal Lex

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On hard or PotD, Cipher survival is way too low to utilize in a melee dps build. Unless the rest of your team is full of tanks making sure the Cipher isn't getting hit.

 

The Cipher's strong suit is their spells, which only require a fast weapon to utilize Soul Whip in order to build Focus. So a Blunderbuss, Warbow/Hunting Bow or Wand is fine for them, it'll also allow you to wear light armor so you can cast and attack faster.

 

You can still switch to dual fast attack weapons for an easy to survive fight or when a hard fight has died down a bit if you want, but like I said their main purpose is their Spells that they should be spamming.

 

It'd work better if the majority of fights in the game weren't giant AoE-fests, but most of the fights are. The rare fights where you're only fighting one monster are insanely easy whether you're melee dpsing them or ranged dpsing them. So I suggest just sticking with making a ranged dps cipher who focuses on spamming spells that way you don't have to also worry about keeping them alive long enough to actually cast said spells.


Edited by Nokturnal Lex, 01 April 2015 - 06:22 AM.


#23
Lasci

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For future reference, I'm fairly sure mechanics has literally no use on your PC. You can have an NPC do it because there aren't any mechanics-driven dialogue options.

 

Also, yes -- Ciphers are not meant to be in melee, but these kinds of builds can always be fun to try out and be silly with!



#24
Zaruthustran

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I'm thinking Cipher is my class, because it's useful in so many situations and can fill so many roles. I enjoy dialogue options so I'm going with at least a 15 Resolve. Damage is important, so Might is at least a 15. The class is all about Focus and that takes hits, so attack speed has to be high: 15 Dex.

 

Wood Elf bumps Dex and Res to 16. Background bumps Might to 16 (probably Old Vailia; I'll dump the +1 Int to bump Might). I think I can safely dump Con to 4 to boost Perception; Ciphers have low health anyway so the % minus isn't that many actual points--and it's better to not be hit in the first place.

 

The radical idea that I'd like an opinion on is: can I safely dump Int, to boost Dex? My reasoning is that his AOEs are small to begin with, so he's not hitting more than 2, maybe 3 enemies anyway. And I don't care about duration because I'm regaining Focus so fast, I can just re-cast.

 

Is dumping Int on a cipher (just to 8 or so) to raise Dex to 18-20 foolish, or wise?


Edited by Zaruthustran, 02 April 2015 - 11:46 PM.


#25
Lasci

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Take 16 resolve. I'm pretty certain there's a bunch of resolve option that require 16. At a glance, you can probably dump intelligence. Just don't grab many AoE abilities.


Edited by Lasci, 02 April 2015 - 11:34 PM.


#26
DIXI

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You can switch perception to resolve. Perception is quite useless for Cipher. Unless you realllyy want to try interrupt spells by auto-attacking enemies.

 

You'll lose 2 reflex. That's all. And reflex isn't a big deal imo.



#27
knownastherat

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Hearth Orlan

 

Mig 2

Con 3

Dex 16

Per 19

Int 19

Res 19

 

I run her with 0 DR on Hard level 5 with Stiletto/Hatchet at the moment. Its not glass cannon its just glass. Due to low damage output I use her to initiate, troll, interrupt and cc - set up fights. Play her like rogue with flanking. There seems to be MIN damage of 1(?) with talent giving +2 Focus on hit (which I do not have yet) I wonder what her focus generation will be later on. First perk "Fast runner" and second "Two weapon style". Crits at 152/419. Deflection, without buffs, 4 points shy of Edér.  

 

It was test build at first but then I found her fun and continued. I should probably put some armor on her but there is no need yet. She is fast and has team.


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#28
Fdzzaigl

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It's really strong for me, I usually wait until they've engaged my fighter & chanter, then I send out my cipher to flank them and generate lots of focus with her dualwield fast melee.

 

I can usually get from  0-70 or so in a few seconds. Then I move her back (stun when needed for disengagement) and spam psychic attacks, then repeat.



#29
VahnXIII

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^ I pretty much do the same thing. Mind Breach (idk what it's called, the lvl 2 spell that stuns and paralyzes surrounding enemies), Mind Blades, move  in and flank targets to build focus quickly, rinse and repeat. I can't wait to unlock more spells at later levels. Almost level 5 and just arrived at Caed Nua and going strong!



#30
taek

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The radical idea that I'd like an opinion on is: can I safely dump Int, to boost Dex? My reasoning is that his AOEs are small to begin with, so he's not hitting more than 2, maybe 3 enemies anyway. And I don't care about duration because I'm regaining Focus so fast, I can just re-cast.

 

Is dumping Int on a cipher (just to 8 or so) to raise Dex to 18-20 foolish, or wise?

 

You don't need a high INT as much as the other casters.

 

A lot of the Cipher powers hit a target and splash around it with lesser effect. EG Mental Binding paralyzes the target and the surrounding AE are only Stuck. And other casters need a high INT to maximize the Foe-Only area of their spells, Ciphers don't really have that issue.

 

If you don't care about duration, then INT isnt doing much for you.

 

I will say that if your Cipher will be your primary CC you should care care about duration. Just because you have the focus to cast multiple times, it doesn't mean you will hit high defense enemies, and the one time you do hit you will want it to be as long as possible. But if someone else is handling CC (another cipher, wizard) then I think you can lower int for a DPS Cipher.


Edited by taek, 10 April 2015 - 09:27 AM.


#31
Climhazzard

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So I was thinking about doing a playthrough with a cipher as my main character, decided to add some comments here based on my experiences so far with grieving mother.

 

Cipher is very glassy, the best ways I've found so far to melee with cipher is to either use a reach weapon, or to use mental binding on your target first. If you're generating focus fast enough to recoup the costs of mental binding and then some before you have to recast it, then that would be ideal, just keep them paralyzed and generate focus while killing them.  The bonus to this strategy is that your opponent will be easy to hit once they are paralyzed, however since you don't want the duration to expire to soon it might not be wise to dump intelligence.  With a reach weapon you can melee in relative safety as long as you're behind your tanks, you might suffer from area of effect attacks though.

 

Been thinking about what talents I might use if I make a cipher who uses melee frequently.  Talentwise two handing has an advantage over dual wielding because you really need vulnerable attack and two weapon style to get the most out of dual wielding, and bows have an advantage over guns/crossbows in that they don't need the reload trait (as far as I understand it).  It's not really a problem when you are focusing on one or the other, but if you plan to be a bit of a hybrid then I think 2 hand + bows is the most efficient course for talents.  If you were only dual wielding for the focus generation and not the damage you could pass on vulnerable attack.

 

Options I'm considering so far, note I am trying to stick with only 3 offensive talent options outside of the cipher talent options.

 

Adventurer's weapon focus+two handed style+marksman:  Can freely switch between melee or ranged.  Would use the "Drake's Bell" estoc because it looks like a sith weapon, and the Borresaine warbow because it's just good.

 

Peasant weapon focus+two handed style+marksman:  Your melee option is a reach weapon.  Your ranged option is a hunting bow.  There is a good option  for each found in early levels of the endless paths.  

 

Ruffian weapon focus+two weapon style+vulnerable attack:  Sabers/stilettos are both good dual wielding options, and blunderbuss could be used for focus generation against targets that don't have a high deflection rating.  Blunderbuss reload time would be long and its accuracy low.  Alternatively...

 

Ruffian weapon focus+marksman+gunner:  No longer a melee hybrid, but has high focus generation potential.

 

Soldier weapon focus+two handed style+gunner: or..

Soldier weapon focus+two handed style+marksman: or..

Soldier weapon focus+gunner+marksman:  First two options are hybrids using pikes/arbalests, last just uses arbalests.  I suppose I could consider taking all 4 talents here.

 

Pretty sure there is a recovery time on weapon swapping that hurts the melee/ranged hybrids a bit, not positive though.  I am having a hard time deciding which option to go with, but I honestly hate using guns and arbalests so I'll probably use either the peasant or adventurer option.


Edited by Climhazzard, 17 April 2015 - 10:43 AM.


#32
Raven Darkholme

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If you solo PotD you can do all quests in Defiance Bay (Act 2) without even getting the cheese shield from the ruins. Now I leveled up to 7 and got the shield = master race.
Gonna try and kill the Sanguine guy too, with monk that fight was doable, but hard.
Once you reach level 9 and get disintegrate the game will be a joke.

#33
Raven Darkholme

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I just wiped the forgotten off the face of the planet, first try no sweat. At this point the cipher is way better than the monk because retaliate generates focus and the level 4 spells are op.

#34
knownastherat

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If you solo PotD you can do all quests in Defiance Bay (Act 2) without even getting the cheese shield from the ruins. Now I leveled up to 7 and got the shield = master race.
Gonna try and kill the Sanguine guy too, with monk that fight was doable, but hard.
Once you reach level 9 and get disintegrate the game will be a joke.

 

If you solo PoTD the most efficient way is the pacifist way:

 

How to get stronghold at level 3 with 3 Mig and 3 Con?

 

 

---

 

Don't fight them.

 

Sneak past to active dialogue with throne servant. When dialogue ends use figurine to summon decoy.  Run back to entrance and wait for out of combat. Sneak .. The rest is the usual as described in this thread already.

 

 

GbEYj3.jpg

 

QQ Maerwald beetles too strong :p

 

9yiDID.jpg

 

---

 

In case anyone wonders how its possible to do damage and generate focus with 3 Mig and how its possible to survive with 3 Con .. I played this character to level 6 and it was probably the easiest solo for me so far. Doing lots of damage and not getting owned actually.

 

High Per and Res are not only for defense, ability to cast under pressure - not too many fast spells like Wiz for example -  and ability to interrupt with fast attacks, it helps with dialogue which is something to consider for soloing.


Edited by knownastherat, 17 April 2015 - 06:47 AM.


#35
Raven Darkholme

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Nah I like my max might. ;p
Just killed the Dryford ogre, that was tough with level 7...

#36
The Josip

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On hard or PotD, Cipher survival is way too low to utilize in a melee dps build. Unless the rest of your team is full of tanks making sure the Cipher isn't getting hit.

 

It'd work better if the majority of fights in the game weren't giant AoE-fests, but most of the fights are. The rare fights where you're only fighting one monster are insanely easy whether you're melee dpsing them or ranged dpsing them.

 

There is a way to achieve that. I have an entire party full of dps melee (monks), and if one of the characters was dps melee cypher I don't think it would be a problem. So it's technically like having a full team of tanks except they're not protecting cypher but dueling on their own. Since you have a wall of melee characters it's much easier for cypher not to get gangbanged. Still, as I don't play cypher I don't know how good he is at getting out of trouble. If my monk gets gangbanged that's great, because I spam FoA on every enemy around him, and gg. Cypher would probably have to be manually checked here and there so he isn't the one that sticks out, but in melee team he would have much easier time that in a team with 1-2 tanks.

 

Disclaimers: Needs a proper build. Works first several levels, can't guarantee for the rest as I'm not there yet.



#37
Raven Darkholme

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Before retaliation the melee capabilities of the cipher are just not there. If the items were less good op as they are you couldn't really melee him because focus build is too low and deflection subpar. At least on Potd especially solo.

#38
knownastherat

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The low survival claim comes from some context not familiar to me. Cipher can get relatively high deflection and on its own has powerful debuffs and cc to avoid getting hit. Blinded, Dazed, Frightened, Sickened etc enemies cant hit relatively high defense easily. Not talking about Paralyze almost at will. Cipher cannot tank 6 wolves is not matter of low survivability. That is matter of using wrong tools for given job.  Low survival in comparison to what? 1on1 Cipher will possibly stunlock anyone to death. Not to get gangbanged indeed. Mobility and speed can help with that.  



#39
Raven Darkholme

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You will never build enough focus in melee, low level to use your powers permanently. That makes retaliation so awesome isn't even about the damage on the enemies but focus build.

#40
knownastherat

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You are saying it like if I was theory crafting. I actually play the character (build) I talk about. I hit with 3 Mig for 15 damage two weapon style 2 focus per hit 19 Dex. Actually, I find mind self forgetting about using focus because melee is fun and enough.

 

Lvl 6, Mig 3, Lion

 

9pz4Sf.jpg

 

hTYo5p.jpg

 

 

---

 

edit: this is not good example how to do it. shield out of stealth + 10 deflection, than some debuff. That would probably result in not getting hit at all and maybe shorter fight.


Edited by knownastherat, 17 April 2015 - 12:22 PM.






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